Eowyn going back to Poland
I am sorry to inform you, that Eowyn's breeder and I, have decided that Eowyn will be going back to Poland.
Through my posts in here, you might know I've had some trouble adjusting to having an akita. Especially since I happened to get a poorly socialized, insecure akita, who has refused to take treats for training, which has been a big challenge for me. Too big it turned out.
I have talked with Eowyn's breeder several times, and since Eowyn is pick of the litter and supposed to be used for show and breeding, she will take her back.
I had read so much about the akita, visited many people, even fostered a male akita, but nothing had prepared me for the ordeal of an insecure, unsocialized akita. I dunno if I would've done better with an akita who had been properly socialized, or one, that would accept treats, but I am assuming it might have been easier for me.
I guess what took me most by surprise was how unpredictable she was. I consulted a behavioral specialist, who knows akitas, and his opinions was, that Eo had experienced situations, where her early warning signals had been ignored, so that she would jump directly to a more "violent" warning instead, if she felt pressured. She was my first spitz, so having one with a problem, turned out to be too much. I feel like a total failure, but the most important thing right now, is to make sure Eowyn gets the best life she possibly can.
I will miss her very much ofcourse, but if I'm lucky I will be able to follow her and see how she does...
One of my friends said that I was just unlucky, and maybe the akita is not for me, but I'm now thinking, that maybe I should not have a spitz at all. Makes me sad, I love the spitzbreeds, but if I can't handle it, it doesn't make sense...
If you have any thoughts, feel free to share.
Through my posts in here, you might know I've had some trouble adjusting to having an akita. Especially since I happened to get a poorly socialized, insecure akita, who has refused to take treats for training, which has been a big challenge for me. Too big it turned out.
I have talked with Eowyn's breeder several times, and since Eowyn is pick of the litter and supposed to be used for show and breeding, she will take her back.
I had read so much about the akita, visited many people, even fostered a male akita, but nothing had prepared me for the ordeal of an insecure, unsocialized akita. I dunno if I would've done better with an akita who had been properly socialized, or one, that would accept treats, but I am assuming it might have been easier for me.
I guess what took me most by surprise was how unpredictable she was. I consulted a behavioral specialist, who knows akitas, and his opinions was, that Eo had experienced situations, where her early warning signals had been ignored, so that she would jump directly to a more "violent" warning instead, if she felt pressured. She was my first spitz, so having one with a problem, turned out to be too much. I feel like a total failure, but the most important thing right now, is to make sure Eowyn gets the best life she possibly can.
I will miss her very much ofcourse, but if I'm lucky I will be able to follow her and see how she does...
One of my friends said that I was just unlucky, and maybe the akita is not for me, but I'm now thinking, that maybe I should not have a spitz at all. Makes me sad, I love the spitzbreeds, but if I can't handle it, it doesn't make sense...
If you have any thoughts, feel free to share.
Comments
Well, I know how you feel in regards to the "total failure" thing. I rehomed my Iceland sheepdog, Skella (also back to the breeder, they also wanted to breed her, but breedings didn't take and she was spayed and rehomed). I didn't like being someone who had rehomed a dog, ever, for any reason. But, in the end, it really wasn't about me.
I don't know if the breed is to blame or not, as I don't have any experience with akita. But, if she was unsocialized and you're inexperienced, then it is a recipe for disaster. I don't know the breeder she came from (or any akita breeders) but their breeding practices might have something to do with it. In my laywoman's opinion, insecurity is largely genetic, assuming no outstanding trauma (which you haven't mentioned). To turn a healthy, ordinary dog into an insecure and unpredictable dog takes quite a bit of negligence unless they're born with that kind of tendency. Personality in general is largely genetic (for dogs and other animals and people, too).
But, I don't know. I hope things work out for you and Eowyn.
Don't give up on "spitz" dogs. There may be an appropriate one out there for you. Remember that they come in all sizes and temperaments. Here is the Wiki link on "spitz dogs":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spitz
Just because this Akita didn't work out didn't mean none will. Eowyn sounded difficult, and it sounded like she was very different than my Oskar, for example, who has been very easy to live with. And you did fine with the Akita you were fostering! So it could be just this girl wasn't a good match. It was probably hard having to get her when she was much older than you would normally get a puppy, and if she was a nervous girl anyway, well, that's difficult. You know I have my girl Shiba who was undersocialized as a pup, and in her case I don't know if it is that plus bad breeding or what, but she is by far one of the most difficult dogs I've had, so I know how hard it can be. (Actually, I had an Akita who was very like her years and years ago, and she was terribly difficult as well!)
And I'm hesitant to say this is a problem with her breeding, because I don't know, but I know I wouldn't want a fearful dog to be bred, esp. not in Akitas, and so I'd hope she would not be bred if she has what sounds like a less than ideal temperament.
eta: I forgot the most important thing! Don't give up on spitz breeds or NKs yet! You had problems with eowyn, but that doesn't mean there isn't a NK out there for you.
If Eowyn is a "poorly socialized, insecure akita" and "pick of the litter and supposed to be used for show and breeding", then I'm really questioning the quality of this breeder.
Yes this might seem somewhat confusing. The breeding were of high quality, and Eowyn was the breeder's pick of the litter, BUT they had recently had a baby, and so the puppies didn't get socialized, at least not what I think of socializing. She lived in a kennel and was let out in the garden 1 or maybe 2 times a day a couple of hours (they had 10 adult akitas and they were out of the kennels one or two at a time during the day). The only time she had been outside the yard was when she was at the vet. Her first time in the city was when I came to pick her up when she was 5 months old.
The breeder told me she was dominant and she got taken away from her mother earlier than the other puppies because the breeder was afraid she'd pick on her little sister (smallest, weakest of the litter). I am not sure when, but I think around 7-8 weeks. Maybe before, but I don't know, so will not accuse anyone.
She told me directly to dominate Eo and to really scold her if she did something unwanted. I never was violent with her, but I used voice quite hard on a few occasions. I didn't really like my breeders advice on this, but I thought she must know what she's talking about. Anyways, when she told me to downright grab Eo, force her into the ground and stare her down I backed out. I went to the behavioral specialist and a couple of my akita friends, and they all said she was insecure and frightened rather than dominant. All I'd seen was her attacking other dogs for seemingly no reason, and I felt unbelievably bad that i had misunderstood her so much. I changed tactics, but it has not worked for me. owyn and I does not seem to really match, personality wise, and when all of this trouble came on top, it was just too much!
@shibamistress
Haha, yeah ya caught me! I was trying to find out, if a kai might be more suited for me. I've wanted a kai for so long, but I am not going to make the same mistake twice, so I'm being very careful of what I decide before knowing ALL I can on kais. And since I had so much trouble with Eo and training, I thought that would be a good thing to know about
Anyways thanks for you support guys, means a LOT!
Word of warning. A Kai may seem easier but if not properly socialized you will get a very wiley dog that will act out of control when people or new animals are around. I actually think in that way Akitas are easier to socialize. A pherril acting Kai will make anyone nervous.
"She lived in a kennel and was let out in the garden 1 or maybe 2 times a day a couple of hours (they had 10 adult akitas and they were out of the kennels one or two at a time during the day). The only time she had been outside the yard was when she was at the vet. Her first time in the city was when I came to pick her up when she was 5 months old."
That's terrible. That really is just awful. I don't know their entire situation, true, but babies are not an excuse. And, presumably, they had a nine month pregnancy preceding the arrival of this baby, so it's not like they didn't know what was coming! Dogs have shorter gestation periods than humans, so they when they did this breeding, they would have already known there was a baby on the way. Unless it was a surprise adoption, but I haven't heard of too many of those. You can socialize puppies and raise a baby at the same time if it's a high enough priority. If it's not, then don't breed your dog!
The breeder told me she was dominant and she got taken away from her mother earlier than the other puppies because the breeder was afraid she'd pick on her little sister (smallest, weakest of the litter). I am not sure when, but I think around 7-8 weeks.
Well, there's the D word again. Oy. Anyway, a "dominant" puppy should stay with its littermates longer, not shorter.
As for you wanting a kai, you kind of gave it away when you put "future kai owner" in your signature, lol.
Having written that, @Brego_mellon_nin, Eowyn sounds like a classic Akita-Thyroid-issue case to me. I hope anyone breeding Akita on this forum are aggressively screening their dogs for Thyroid issues.
Also, I agree with Heidi, having a baby is no excuse. We had a CO litter when we were pregnant, then right after Chase was born we had another CO litter, and then had Haru's litter shortly after that. All our pups still had tons of socialization and attention, and the proof is in the pups. It wasn't easy, but we made it work, and I think it shows in the pups. Shame on this breeder for making excuses for laziness.
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I am aware of that, and believe me when I say, that I AM hesitant about buying a spitz again. Not because I think they are bad dogs, but I'm afraid I'm not good enough. I don't mind having to work with the dog, as long as I CAN. Eowyn didn't want to work with me, or maybe just could not find the right "botton"... I dunno, but I tell you I tried all I could think of and all you guys adviced me to and she never wanted to interact with me...
I would be VERY picky about breeder IF I choose a kai, and I'd NEVER take a pup from somewhere they were not socialized very well.
@hondru
I am tempted to think like you, I do know that the breeder is not bad as such, but she did less with this litter than she usually does, and she told me directly that is was because of their son. And yes, ofcourse they knew they had a kid when they bred the dog... So I guess they thought they could do it all, but somehow couldn't. I do not wish to make an enemy of my breeder, and she was always very nice to me, but let's just say I don't think the pups were raised right. Ofcourse Eowyn's temperament would have popped up in some degree nomatter what, but a proper socialization might have made her more manageble.
Anyways, it's been decided now, and I've been in emotional hell for the last months, so I am kinda looking forward to ending this, though I am also sad...
BTW, I put that "Future kai owner" in my signature a long time ago, even before I got Eowyn. Back when I had asked Shigeru to help find a kai pup in Japan. As of right now, I dunno what to do, dogwise... I think I will take a litle break and think about it.
@brada1878
If I had kept Eowyn she would have been checked all over for EVERYTHING before breeding, and I am sure that her breeder will do the same. She always healthtests her breeding dogs...
I can't make judgements over the internet either (even though of course I have at certain times!) but I think I feel like there are enough red flags here that I would be cautious. But it could be Eo, too. Donna Bennett (who has joined the forum here but isn't around much) has another pup from this litter--I wonder how that pup is doing? Overall, though, it seems to me Eowyn had problems before you got her.
Well, the big thing here, Tanja, is not to blame yourself, and I absolutely don't think you should take this as a sign you shouldn't have a spitz or an NK. Tara's point about Akitas being easy is true only if you don't already have a crazy, undersocialized Akita...It really seems to me that likely Eo's problems were in place before you got her, and she would have taken a huge amount of work for ANYONE. (Again, my case in point is look how well you got along with the other Akita). You worked really hard with this dog.
I know part of the thing about getting Eowyn when she was older has to do with the quarantine issue (I think it did anyway? That's why you got her at 6 months?) Will this be true of any dog you get from out of the country? Anyway, what I'm thinking is that if that is the case, it's probably really critical that you find a breeder that will be guaranteed to have socialized the pup well before it gets to you, and of as Brad noted, I also agree that training practices of the breeder are important, especially in a case like this where you may get an older pup: find someone who you really agree with how they're training/socializing, etc. Then I bet you'll do fine, whether you get a Kai, or another Akita or another type of spitz entirely.
Because I think from reading your posts here, it's clear to me you'll do fine with a spitz breed. There is nothing impossible about them (except for people who expect them to act like a GSD or lab or something)--they just take some patience.
One other thought. Even though this must have been a really hard decision, I think you made the right one. Some dogs never get over that early undersocialization (as I said, I've had two of them) and they are REALLY hard to live with. I can't even imagine trying to turn a dog like that into a show dog.
Donna is doing good with Eo's sister Eira. Donna says she is more active and different to train than her other akitas. But I don't have her experience. And Eo might be different in temperament... And Eira was not taken from her mother, only Eo was put aside. Might also make it different for Eo.
I got Eowyn at 5 months old, and that was because that the pup has to have rabies vaccination if above 8 weeks when transported to his new home. Eo's breeder insisted upon keeping the pups till 3 months old and so she had to stay longer to be vaccinated. That's why I got her later. Eo's breeder said to me that it would NOT have made any difference if I had gotten her earlier. I have trouble believing that, but that is what she wrote to me...
If my future pup is allowed to leave his breeder at 8 weeks, there will not be any problems... Ofcourse it also depends on the country... There are strict rules for some countries.
You really should not blame yourself. It sounds like Eowyn was an incredibly difficult dog who was under-socialized and has some major fear/anxiety issues. When we get a dog, we always say (well those of us here, anyway) it will be a lifelong commitment. And sometimes, when you make that commitment, you have to do what is best for the dog, even if that means that the best thing for her would to be somewhere else. In this circumstance, it sounds like going back to the breeder is what is best for her, and you.
As for another dog... I think you should not give up on spitz breeds, especially the NK. And from what I have seen here and on FB, you are a VERY dedicated owner. Any dog would be very privileged to live with you. So take a little time, and write down what you want from a dog. Write down the things that you would have changed about your time with Eowyn and the things that you liked about her. Do the same for her breeder. Once you get that out, you should have a pretty good idea what you want out of both a breeder and a dog.
I dunno which NK would fit me, because I haven't had the others
Okay, maybe I'm a bit more traumatized by this Eo ordeal than I thought. Hmm...
I do hope that the personal experiences I can hear about in here, will help me though
I like Sunyata's idea. "Write down the things that you would have changed about your time with Eowyn and the things that you liked about her. Do the same for her breeder. " I am sure doing this will help down the road and in hind sight when things have calmed down will give perspective. : )
Best of luck....
Snf
Thanks for your advice guys
Thanks Mirka, I will not give up on my kai plans, though I got shaken up for a sec there. But still I will wait a while, till I have a more secure situation before I get one... or two :P
How has your kais been in training situations? Are they food motivated?
I think dogs should be cared for like family, but not treated or thought of as children. You want the best for your family, and so you should do the best for your dogs, even if that means admitting or realizing a harsh truth.
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So true what you say... It really sucks that it didn't work out, but Eo's happiness is first and most important.
Also what you say about caring for dogs like they're family, but not treating them as kids, is a really important point, which can be really bad, even dangerous, if ignored. Especially here in Denmark it is seen much with the small toybreeds. People seem to think they don't need the same amount of training because they're small...
I will definately be more careful choosing next time, especially in the choice of breeder.
Mei is a perfect example. I usually fall in love with all dogs, and I did with her. We spent a few rough months together, and we bonded quickly. Which essentially means I fell in love with her. When I got her she was completely out of control. She had lived outside tied up probably since she was just a little pup. It was tough potty training her and teaching her manners. She is well trained now, but she's a rough neck. She is not as social as Koda or I are. She doesn't like being out like Koda and I do, and she will punk another dog if she feels the least bit spited by them. I love her, but she needed a home that was more conducive to who she is. When my parents said they wanted her, I gave her to them that night. It was the best thing I ever did for her. She's so happy with them in their big house with their big yard where she can just be with them.
No owner is a failure when they do the least selfish thing they can do which is find the perfect home for their dog.