Which NK are "brave"?

Brego_mellon_nin

I got talking with a friend, and she has had both american akita and japanese akita. She said there is a vast difference (at least in the dogs she has owned) between their courage level (in lack of a better, more appropriate word).

The japanese akita would always go forward, if unsecure, he would react "forward" whereas her american akita would back off, of run away. Going "backwards" so to speak. She liked the japanese more, since she didn't like her dog to be so insecure. She always had to reassure and comfort, and she liked the japanese's more courageous behavior. As far as I understand the JA was never really reactive, like she would lash out at strange dogs or people, she just reacted differently. More confident, sort of...

Now I would like to know, if you have experienced similar things in your NK? Ofcourse if you have only had one breed, there's not much to compare... But I guess we all have a pretty good idea if our dogs react "forward" or "backwards".

I don't know for sure, but I would think the kai was a backwards and shiba forwards, but please correct me if I'm wrong

EDIT: I am ofcourse talking about like their natural instincts, but training and socialization will affect their way of greeting the world I know...

Heidi

Well, I've had three of the NK and my kai has been the most stable and brave.

Rakka's probably the least stable, as she will sometimes be afraid of a certain person and I don't know why. When she meets a new person, I don't know if she will fall madly in love with them on first sight, or be really weirded out by their presence. If there's barrier frustration involved, then things can get a little hairy. If someone is standing just out of reach of her when she's on leash, for instance, she'll start jumping and barking, which a lot of people interpret as aggression, but it's barrier frustration and she calms right down if the person approaches her. So, the best way for Rakka to meet people is to have her sit and then calmly have the person come over, maybe give her a treat - and make sure she stays sitting! She really likes to get in people's faces. If something alarms her, she will run up to it and get right on top of it. He's really in-your-face.

Tojo, the shiba, wasn't afraid of people, but quite disinterested in them sometimes. He was usually really calm and approachable, but sometimes he'd just be like, "No thanks, I'd rather not," and avoid the person by always moving away and never looking at them. He wasn't acting afraid, though, just like he really didn't feel like interacting right then. If he was alarmed by something, he had what we called his "intruder alert" bark, which was a deep, long, "Wrooooooooo!" He'd stand his ground and sound the alarm. He didn't run away or go forward.

I haven't really seen Sosuke get alarmed by anything yet. He will sit there and calmly watch Rakka freak out over something (like, say, when people go through our garbage bin - yeah, it's weird). He was a little iffy about the donkey when he first met him, and his hackles went up and he was sort of walking sideways around him, but then I told him it was okay. Sometimes his hackles go up when Rakka barks, and he runs to see what she's barking at, but that's about it. He's a cool cucumber.

venus

now my experience with my akitas is the opposite to your friends. i've owned 2 JA and 1 american and had a few americans stay over either from foster or the odd friends dog and all the americans have been much more forward than either JA, including an 8 month old american boy that had been locke in a shed for 4 months.
my first JA mars was very fearful of everything, athena is more confident than he was by a long way but she still requires at lot of reasurance from me in situations she isn't happy with and will just sit close and bark incesantly if she is really unsure. we recently had a problem with her with the ironing board that started squeeking and she would dash past it like it would bite her, not very brave really. we've managed to get her walking past it but if we touch it in anyway she is off under the table looking very worried and stressed.
never had any issues with my american girl she is super confident and will happily go investigate anything that is of interest to her. i don't think i have ever seen her be fazed by anything. she is also the one that is more aloof and doesn't need to spend every waking moment glued to us, although does like been in our company. where with athena its almost like she needs to be with us.

Brego_mellon_nin

@venus
Okay, good to know that is can also be the other way around. Ofcourse a lot also depends on the individual dog and its upbringing ofcourse... The breeder's effort is very important.

Edgewood

I think that it often depends more on the dog's innate personality vs a breed per se.

Of my 2 shikoku, Kuma is by far more brave about people - never met a person that he didn't think that he loved. Very brave about that. Sachi is more like Rakka, some people she loves, others she is slightly taken aback, and others she really does not want to meet.

Both can be pretty brave about going new places, I rarely see them be shy of anything on walks. The are not "spooky" about new things, cars, trucks, bikes, etc. Both can be somewhat shy when introduced to some agility apparatuses, but they quickly get over that because they know I want them to try (eg, like going over a pole jump).

Kuma is very brave against game, not hesitation at all (ground hogs, raccoons, possum in my experience), Sachi is brave, but less so than Kuma.

BradA1878

In my opinion "brave" is a very hard thing to define in dogs as the behaviors that are usually associated with being brave are often the result of a breeder selecting for specific working qualities. Also, the qualities of being brave are usually pretty contextual.

For example, a catch-dog may be perceived as being very "brave" as they will go up-against very large and dangerous animals in order to catch and hold them. However many of those same catch dogs will cull when pressured by a human threat...

So, are they still "brave" if they cull from fear when faced with aggressive behavior from a human but not when faced with aggressive behavior from an animal??? I think they are, but under certain circumstances (when a human is showing aggression toward them) they might appear not very brave at all.

So, to bring it back to NK, look at the difference between working Kishu Ken and a Kai Ken. In theory, these days the working Kishu is being selected more for bay and catch work, while Kai Ken are being selected for baying. So when you compare the two breeds in a hunting situation the Kishu might appear to be more "brave" (because they move in closer to the danger to try and catch), while a Kai might look less "brave" (because they keep a healthy distance from the danger while still doing their job - ie "baying"). It it really fair to call either breed more or less "brave" - they both are facing danger, right?

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tjbart17

Let me tell you what happened this morning, and you can decide about Kais.

Koda and I run every morning for about 45 minutes. We went out on our usual path, when someone was packing up their car to go camping. The woman had a plastic rolling cooler with what sounded to be beer bottles in it. The cooler was going down her front stairs and making thunking noises while the bottles shaked inside.

This set Koda off. First he started going from side to side huffing and puffing. Then he took his fear out on the guy out front irrationally barking him. Lastly, he went running full speed away shaking with his tail in between his legs. I have NEVER EVER seen in my life a breed that has such a HIGH FlIGHT INSTINCT under such irrational circumstances.

Koda is a really cool, calm, and collected dog. No one would ever think that he has this side to him, and honestly in two years I've only had to deal with this about 8-9 times. Which from what I hear from other Kai owners is a REALLY good rate. Some deal with this on a daily, weekly basis.

Now brave. Koda will go after anything to hunt it. He will nip at cows, deer, goats, horses, whatever with no fear. When his hunting drive kicks in nothing else exists but biting into that prey.

So yes he's brave when it comes to big game, but with an extremely high flight instinct during day to day life.

FYI Koda was extremely well socialized and trained. No one could have done a better job. This is inherently his reaction, and through lots of training, we've been able to keep it down to the very minimal amount of reactions.

Brego_mellon_nin

@brada1878
I did put brave in citation marks, because I know the word is not really appropriate, but I do not know all the different words in the english language, and I believe you know what I meant anyways...

shibamistress

I go with what other people say about it being more about individual dogs than breed per se. (Except for the very interesting differences Brad was speaking of) Also, you have to pay attention and know what is motivating what you're seeing....this would be context, I guess. Example: I had an American Akita years ago who some might read as "brave" in that her reaction to new things, esp. people, was to rush forward barking and growling. Actually, she was fearful, and this was how she engaged what she perceived to be threats. My male Shiba is the the same (though he is very confident with people, and if he's not interested in them, he's just aloof in the way Heidi talked about Tojo) in that he'll almost immediately engage a dog that is too close or something he doesn't understand (a bicycle, say), but he's not acting brave--he's afraid, and his way of dealing with that is to make himself look big and brave.

My AA, Oskar, is pretty cautious but not at all fearful, and I think he has quite good judgement, so far, and doesn't NEED to run forward, because he's neither fearful nor overly confident. I've watched him interact with things he might see as "threats" such as the UPS guy. His way of doing this is very straightforward. He just watches. He's not scared or timid--he's just deciding what to do. So he watches the guy get out of his truck, and when he finally decides he needs to do something, he waits til the guy is putting the package down then Oskar runs at the fences, silently, and stands up at the gate. He doesn't bark or growl, he just stands there and stares, and if I'm out, part of his point is that he's getting in between me and percieved threat.

So for me, at least with this particular Akita, who has a pretty solid temperament, he's "brave" in that his typical behavior when encountering people is to watch and decide. With dogs, he's still so young that he gets terribly excited, and hops a lot and runs toward them (and he won't growl unless they are rude to him). With other "scary" things, though, he's willing to run. Not much scares him, but occasionally novel things will scare him, like the cow toy my mom sent to him that "mooed." That was pretty scary!

Brego_mellon_nin

I guess it was kind of a hard topic to make a precise answer to. If we would be judging on dogs that (hypothetically) had lived the same place, without human interaction and the same experiences growing up, that is the only time we could actually say something that would be accurate. But that is not exactly a situation that is likely to present itself (nor desirable!!)

Anyways thanks for you inputs all the same

BradA1878

@Brego_mellon_nin - I wasn't picking at you. I hope you didn't take it that way.

I answered like that because I couldn't come up with a simple answer to the questions, and it is a question I've thought about - actually, I've thought more about the opposite of your question: which breed/dog is more fearful.

Just like "brave", "fear" is an emotion that can manifest in surprisingly different behaviors and it makes it very hard for me to generically label a dog (or breed) "fearful" or "brave"...

Take the Blue example I gave, he is fearful of unknown dogs, but very confident in most other situations. So, is it fare to label Blue "fearful"? Blue is a total wuss with me, if I raise my voice at all to him he will cower and sulk, but with strangers at the door or around "his" car any type of aggressive action (like yelling at him) will only make him meaner... So, he is brave with them but not with me? See, it's an impossible question to answer IMHO.

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Brego_mellon_nin

@brada1878
Not at all

I just sometimes find it hard to write it the right way, exactly like I mean it, because I don't really have the same feel for the nuances in all the english words as you probably do

I just asked because even though the upbringing of a dog is vert important, as is the individual personality of the specific dog, there does seem to be similarities in breeds, I mean otherwise why would we have different breeds other than to have different looking dogs? So I thought maybe someone more familiar with the NK would be able to give sort of a general opinion... I know it's difficult and I'd never rely on it for like, decisionmaking, I just got curious because of the example my friend gave...

BradA1878

@Brego_mellon_nin - What types of situations do you need/want your dog to be brave in?

That's probably the question you should answer first, and then ask if people feel their breed of interest fits your criteria.

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Brego_mellon_nin

Oh, I am not breed "shopping", I was really just curious

If I am going to buy NK it will be kai. What Tara says about Koda being scared of the cooler (or having other flight freaks) doesn't scare me. What was my problem with Eo was not when she was afraid of an object, it was when she felt pressured by another dog and didn't warn me or the other dog before she launched an attack (I would call it a warning bite, except she hung on and I had to pry her off of the other dog).

I also thought a lot about hokkaido and kishu, but I think the kai is the best fit for me...

Okay that was a bit off the topic, I really just wanted to know if anyone had a general opinion as to what the different NK breeds would do when confronted with something. I don't have a specific situation, and like I said in my previous post, it might just be too hard without the exact same situation, and dogs that has experienced exactly the same, to judge the way the NK breeds react differently to a challenge, say meeting the scary cooler for example

shibamistress

No need to apologize--I think your point came across, and it's an interesting discussion, even if we can't really come up with answers. We're all approaching the question a bit differently too, which is intriguing. I'm looking at it mostly in terms of how I've seen my NK interact with people.

I think AAs are supposed to be less fearful and more confident, and I think ideally they should have an Oskar like desire to evaluate a situation before deciding if they need to go forward (in terms of guarding, anyway, and here I don't mean in the PPD sense more the watch dog sense, who raises an alarm, though Oskar doesn't to alarm bark much). I suppose some people would not find Oskar to be confident because he doesn't go forward before evaluating things, but I actually like that about him. He just wants to check things out before jumping in....he's even like that with food. If he gets a "new" food, he takes it, drops it, sniffs it, licks it, etc. before deciding if it is edible. He seems like a "thoughtful" dog who likes to take the time to consider things, though his goofy look and the fact that he's still a bit clumsy, belie what I think of as his thoughtfulness...he looks like a big clownish sort of boy! (and he can be that too).

Anyway, that's my idea of what the somewhat mythical American Akita temperament should be: calm, confident, watchful. (I say somewhat mythical because we've all run into so many examples that don't fit. And I really do think Eo's behavior was kind of typical of fearful Akitas, unfortunately. The very fearful AA I had years ago also gave almost no warning before attacking another dog--I finally realized that if she wagged her tail as a dog approached, that was a BAD sign. But she never growled or anything--she tried to flip the dogs over with her front paws and then went for their throats, which as you can imagine, did not endear to other dogs or other dog people. And in addition, she was afraid of people so was quite reactive to them too).

tjbart17

@Brego_mellon_nin I hope I'm not portraying the wrong impression to you. I wasn't trying to scare you with my story. It just happened to occur this morning then I saw your thread on the forum.

I think it's a complex question, and I tend to be with Brad. I've always asked it the opposite way to myself. Which of the NK are more fearful? Because I feel that these breeds do have irrational fears and high fight/flight instincts. My earliest threads/posts of Koda have a lot of me commenting on this. It's been in numerous topics with me and friends/family.

Don't get me wrong. I love Kais. I would recommend a Kai to almost anyone if they are interested. I would give them glowing reviews because Koda and Mei are both so easy to live with.

My impression of AA's is that they are more confident than any of the NK's. The AA's that I've met are all confident. Side note, Koda is great with other dogs. He has the best social manners of any dog I know. But he's a complete ass to AA's and Giant Malamutes. He goes nuts on them. Completely goes on bark/growl schitzo mode when they are around. No good reason. He just hates them. No AA or Mal has ever seen him as a threat or gone after him, and the little asshole has deserved it.

Brego_mellon_nin

@tjbart17
No worries, I just wanted to explain that this is not a "what NK should I get?"-thread, disguised as something else

The 2 danish kai lives (peacefully I might add) with a saint bernhard I dunno if kai are prone to bearing a grudge towards big dogs, but these 2 sure doesn't, and anyways my parents have a GSD so my (possible) future kai will also get to know a friendly big dog And anyways, with the spitzbreeds I do expect some kind of quirky personality! XD

Heidi

I wrote in my first post on this thread I said that Sosuke was a little iffy about the donkey when he first met him, but upon further reflection, I think I misinterpreted his body language. I was just thinking about when he was being evaluated for SAR. Right before the testing, a deer walked by, and this is why Sosuke wasn't focused on his toys as much as he should have been. He got his hackles up, sniffed around fervently, and was in a "ready" stance the whole time because he was really focused on that deer. That's how he was acting around the donkey; he had his hackles up, and he was very intensely watching.

Not that it's terribly relevant, just thought I'd note that.