On Jean Donaldson's Blog...

BradA1878

This post is creating a lot of drama, check out the comments...

http://academyfordogtrainers.com/blog/2011/the-weasel-files-part-two/

----

lindsayt

Wow! I'm surprised by some of their reactions to JD. Dale is flipping crazy by the way. Dog training is just as crazy and drama filled as show breeding!

StaticNfuzz

What a contentious issue and I am not sure why there is such tension regarding a blend of theories. Like anything in teaching there must be a review of epistemology and theories that have been postulated from the past, with the building of future models on recent data that are backed with comprehensive science as a field develops. I am saddened by the fact that some folks claim to flat out know what makes all dogs across the board "happy" in regard to a specific training agenda. (Too bad dogs can't talk.) Like all things in teaching, training and learning the activities revolve/evolve around/through context and that is something that can't be derived from a book or a single theory. However, best practices and plans can be developed through study of frameworks that build from the least harmful practices for any given case. I think the key issue might be what is regarded as "harmful". Like parenting styles, opinions vary widely on discipline strategies and effectiveness.

shibamistress

Wow, that's pretty crazy. I feel a bit of smug satisfaction in that most of the people who are trying to bash JD are poor writers. (I know, I'm petty like that sometimes).

But sometimes I just think, what planet are people living on when shocking a dog or hanging a dog is considered to be "kindly" and is called training? Even if I was a trainer who used aversive methods, say leash tugs and prong collars and all that, wouldn't it be better to admit that some people (Koehler) went too far, and move on? Why try to support people who are doing things that are clearly inhumane?

ayk

I haven't gone to the blog site yet, but there are older trainers in soCal that actually worked with Koehler. I've been told that what Koehler would do in person was not nearly as harsh as what he wrote in his books. These older trainers are a dying generation though. They're literally dying from old age and such. The Koehler books came out in 1960's.

The trainer I knew was very, very skilled in reading dog language to the point of finding specific dog ailments (ie. juvenile cataracts) before a vet would. That level of dog reading skill paired with precise timing had made him very effective in training bird dogs and teaching rattlesnake avoidance.

BradA1878

I was pretty shocked by the comments too... not so much the comments, but the comments on HER blog. I mean, she's a heavyweight! Just goes to show that no one is safe from this meme. LOL

----

JessicaRabbit

I like that she has really been taking the gloves off lately. I get the feeling she is sick of the "self taught experts" and just speaking out. She has posted on fb a number of times this week about this.
It has to be maddening to dedicate yourself so completely to your education and training and then have someone with zero of either behave like you are a moron and stomp all over science and truth.

tjbart17

Ooohhh ouch! She really schools everyone with that post. :-)

McYogi

What a spicy little post... Not sure how I feel about it! I'm not one to attack, so both sides of the battle line are a little too hot for me.

I like Susan Raymond's comment which, grossly paraphrased, roughly says "You're all hindering the progress of understanding this complex topic, can't we all speak civilly?"

jan3t

Why is Donaldson ragging on someone who wrote in the 1980s and died over a decade ago? Learning theory did not reach the mainstream of dog training until Karen Pryor and her little border terrier popularized it in the 1980s. Meanwhile, there were fresh voices in the 80s trying to move dog training away from the ubiquitous "marching in a circle jerking the dog yelling heel" approach (during which some dogs miraculously learned to heel).

Now its easy to look back with 20/20 vision and wonder why those people didnt get it, but it does not enhance the "humanity" of the one using fangs and claws to deal with those long dead. She is riding the stream that those 'quacks "who can’t define an undergrad Psych 101 term like punishment" yet who knew there was a better way' began 30 years ago. An odd approach from one who apparently can define "punishment".

I am very pleased that the science of learning theory is being applied to teaching various species (including the species reading this), but it is not ubiquitous, nor will it ever be, because it does require thoughtfulness over impulsiveness on the part of the trainer. Which may be why "jerks" train dogs rather than a less cooperative species.

shibamistress

I felt her discussion of Koehler was appropriate. She wasn't just randomly "ragging" on him--she was pointing out that the organization she was discussing , the IACP, has chosen to induct him into their hall of fame, and she was questioning why the organization would that, given some of his methods. He was used as an example to make an overall point condemning the IACP. It seemed relevent to me, especially since there are some who still follow the Koehler method, and especially since the Hall of Fame said his methods were just as useful now. I agree with her that that is problematic.

jan3t

@shibamistress - Sorry for not being specific - but I referred to her discussion of Vicki Hearne "who can’t [sic] define an undergrad Psych 101 term like punishment". Hearne wrote some books in the early 80s that helped people to appreciate animal intelligence and died a decade ago (her articles are a bit painful to read). I dont agree with her perspectives on animal training, but I am guessing that a scientific survey would reveal that, even today, less than 25% of 'dog trainers' could provide an accurate technical definition of punishment or comprehend that while punishment might work in the sort-term to meet the 'trainer's' goals, it is ineffective in the long-term and tends to promote fallout behaviors.

Effectiveness of methods dont change through time, just our understanding of them (or not). As a species, humans are abusive - I have been baffled by the etiology of the word 'humane' since I was a young child. Institutions are allowed to use Koeler-like techniques on our own species (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Rotenberg_Educational_Center) despite ample scientific findings that it is ineffective as treatment/training technique - the science of learning theory is consistent across species.

Discussions with Koehler-fans is akin to banging one's head against a brick wall. I gave that one up about 30 years ago. I can imagine that fanclub is even more ridiculous today if he has been resurrected from the grave. Her blogging about it - if any of his followers read it - will not make any difference. But Donaldson is, relatively speaking, a new kid on the block. If people feel strongly about IACP decisions, starting a petition or letter writing campaign might be something we could DO. To do nothing but complain is "ragging".

With her blog and reputation, Donaldson is in a position to do something.

shibamistress

@Jan, ah, I see. Makes more sense now. I really liked your comment about the etiology of the word, humane, btw. I was continually disappointed by Vicki Hearne, personally. She was a beautiful writer, and some parts of her book about her pit bull, Belle, were just stunning. I loved the way she was able to talk about philosophy in terms of dogs. Before I knew more about her training methods, I really enjoyed her writing.

Then I found out more, read some different things, and it soured everything.

I'm of the opinion, though, that sometimes what we do need to do is bring people's attention to things (as Donaldson did in her blog). Sometimes there isn't really anything you can do, practically, to make changes to an organization like IACP. So what Donaldson is doing is drawing people's attention to it. Sometimes blogs are just that: a forum to talk about issues. Certainly Donaldson has done a great deal for dogs and their people in her writing, her training, etc, and I'm so aware that people must pick their battles and use their energy where it will do the most good, so perhaps this is case like this.

That's my take on it anyway! YMMV, of course!

jan3t

@shibamistress ("Donaldson has done a great deal for dogs and their people in her writing, her training, etc")

She is amazing - can't be too many like her!