Not surprised about the demand for more sociable Kais in Denmark. I remember recalling people saying the Danish bloodlines of Karelian Bear Dogs are too watered down to be used for hunting and they said the Danish Temperament Test is the reason for it. However... I have to question people who gripe about it because: is there even a demand for bear-hunting dogs in Denmark? Do they even HAVE bears? Likewise, I wouldn't worry about modifying the Kais' temperament either, because one has to ask themselves: are the Japanese-bred Kais really appropriate for the Danes?
I think you all misunderstand me a little in this matter. Don't wanna change the temperament of the Kais, not at all, we love the Kais as they are, and that's what make them so special, but I don't think it's OK for a Kai to bite, or any other dog... My opinion is, that if your dog trust it's pack, and feels safe, it don't have a reason to bite. @souggy. I don't know if breeding in correlation with the temperament test, spoil the hunting use, but think it's a possibility. For sure, temperament of the Karelian in Denmark have changed. I spoke with a breeder of Karelians some years ago, she told me, that she was not able to walk her dogs off leash, and I can surely see, that this make hunting with your dog a bit difficult? We don't have bears in Denmark, only in the Zoo. Don't want to change the Kais temperament, or personality at all, and I think Kais are very appropriate for those Danes, who understand the special personality and uniqueness, of this wonderful breed.
@Tina and @souggy KBSs are not supposed to be on leash when hunting. Like the nihon ken, they search for prey themselves, in a certain radius around their owner, and when they find the game, they hold it, mostly by barking (baying) until the hunter arrives. So the Karelian beardogs' ability to be offleash has nothing to do with it. I know several people who hunt with their karelians. Also danish karelians. But no doubt that the character tests have selected more "soft" dogs, but I don't think a karelian would really loose it's sense for hunting, unless you did something major to the breed, with that specific goal in mind. Anyways, the hunting crazyness is part of a karelian's personality. I personally know a danish karelian and she will hunt everything. She has caught mice even, and eats them like it's candy (EEEW)!
The biggest kennel in Denmark, Bjørnehuset, is very popular in the showrings and they are spread all across the world. However I do not know how the hunting instincts are in the Bjørnehuset karelians. The owner of the kennel is an elderly woman, and she does not hunt And I do not think she ever did... So maybe that has not been a priority of hers??
And I agree with you Tina, that we don't want the kais to change, BUT there is such a variety within the breed, that I do not think it's a bad thing picking those who fit our situation best. I mean, afterall we are not japanese hunters, who need to go out and kill like deer or hogs, so why would a dog, that - within the breed - had the most ideal temperament for THAT, be right for us? Times have changed, and even though I deeply respect the hunters who DO want that temperament, I'd like the "softer" dogs within the breed. I'm not saying we should change the breed at all, but since I don't need the hunting abilities so much (I know they are always there!!) I don't think it's wrong picking the dog that is less primitive/more social... From the dogs, that the breed produces anyway. If you know what I mean??
I think we should use all available Kais for breeding in Europe but not inbred the breed. And this makes breeding very difficult here because all Kais (except one female and two young males whom are imported from Japan) are relatives. Without artificial insemination out-breeding is now (males are too young to be bred) impossible. Breeding rare breed isn't so easy, you have to think so many things in it. The healt situation in future (that's why I have done every possible test for Ife and want to out-bred her), temperature etc.. I know Ife don't have the best temperament but I have talk about her breeding with several Japanese Kai breeders and many other breeders and I'm going to breed her. She don't like strange people that's it but she never ever has tried to bite people in purpose to hurt.
And then little about the Karelians... You can take the KBD out from Finland but you never can take its Karelian nature out of it . They are working dogs as any hunting breed is BUT its drive to hunt should end when you put the leash on it and take it away from forest. If it don't then you really have a KBD with issues. In Finland Karelians are also family dogs as much hunting partners. So I really woudn't subscribe that hunting crazyness is part of Karealians.
@MirkaM I am sorry about the "hunting crazyness", I just meant their hunting instincts, and the karelians I have met had PLENTY Even in the city, in the middle of human world, the karelians I know, will focus entirely on any prey they see (cats, squirrels, birds, etc.)
With regards to kai breeding, you are so right. It really is difficult with such a limited genepool, in Denmark there are 5 kai at this moment. American female, japanese male and 3 pups from the american female and a french male of american lines, though not from same kennel as the female. We have limited access to breeding material, which sucks, but I think with determination and effort we can make a decent breedingprogramme here in Scandinavia or Europe for that matter...
I am just saying I don't see a problem with selecting for softer dogs.
For example: there are a lot of divides in the Border Collie world: You have some that are really neurotic, like the ones bred for sheep trails; then you have the ones that are fairly bold, like the ones bred for cattle work; sport-bred ones are extremely drivey; the flashy show ring type; and finally, you have the placid pet ones.
I always find it a bit humourous when the sheep people complain about other people ruining the breed when 1) the sheep market in the States is extremely small, 2) there is a huge difference between ABCA collie bred in the States and ISDS collie bred in Scotland, 3) the ones bred for the trials are not appropriate for cattle, and 4) there are not enough working homes out there.
What I do have a problem with is people misrepresenting their breeding stock. No, the trial is not an accurate way of judging a dog's ability to work. No, your dog cannot work because it's too psychotic. No, your dog is too timid and would get brained by a cow. So therefore your dog is not properly working.
Besides, I am sure the ones who complain the dogs are too watered down for hunting-- isn't it a matter of personal perspective?
So in this case, I would say the dogs you are selecting for represent the culture you are within. If anything, it would be diversifying the gene pool.
Sorry, didn't mention the temperament because of Ife. I Don't worry about her, think she's still so young, that you can work on it, I'm sure. Have you tried show training? Near by, we have this training, with a good coach, and some nice calm and steady people, with a lot of dog experience, who knows how to take contact, and train the dogs for being touched by strangers. It gives a lot, because you, as a handler, is more relaxed in a training situation, than in a stressed out show situation. It's very giving for unsure dogs, and also for unsure handlers ;-)
It's worth a try, if possible in Finland.
About breeding, yes, we have a very small population to breed, in Scandinavia, but I'm sure, that we can make something nice out of it, and maybe, as times go by, the population increases.
Comments
My opinion is, that if your dog trust it's pack, and feels safe, it don't have a reason to bite.
@souggy. I don't know if breeding in correlation with the temperament test, spoil the hunting use, but think it's a possibility. For sure, temperament of the Karelian in Denmark have changed. I spoke with a breeder of Karelians some years ago, she told me, that she was not able to walk her dogs off leash, and I can surely see, that this make hunting with your dog a bit difficult?
We don't have bears in Denmark, only in the Zoo.
Don't want to change the Kais temperament, or personality at all, and I think Kais are very appropriate for those Danes, who understand the special personality and uniqueness, of this wonderful breed.
KBSs are not supposed to be on leash when hunting. Like the nihon ken, they search for prey themselves, in a certain radius around their owner, and when they find the game, they hold it, mostly by barking (baying) until the hunter arrives. So the Karelian beardogs' ability to be offleash has nothing to do with it. I know several people who hunt with their karelians. Also danish karelians. But no doubt that the character tests have selected more "soft" dogs, but I don't think a karelian would really loose it's sense for hunting, unless you did something major to the breed, with that specific goal in mind. Anyways, the hunting crazyness is part of a karelian's personality. I personally know a danish karelian and she will hunt everything. She has caught mice even, and eats them like it's candy (EEEW)!
The biggest kennel in Denmark, Bjørnehuset, is very popular in the showrings and they are spread all across the world. However I do not know how the hunting instincts are in the Bjørnehuset karelians. The owner of the kennel is an elderly woman, and she does not hunt
And I agree with you Tina, that we don't want the kais to change, BUT there is such a variety within the breed, that I do not think it's a bad thing picking those who fit our situation best. I mean, afterall we are not japanese hunters, who need to go out and kill like deer or hogs, so why would a dog, that - within the breed - had the most ideal temperament for THAT, be right for us? Times have changed, and even though I deeply respect the hunters who DO want that temperament, I'd like the "softer" dogs within the breed. I'm not saying we should change the breed at all, but since I don't need the hunting abilities so much (I know they are always there!!) I don't think it's wrong picking the dog that is less primitive/more social... From the dogs, that the breed produces anyway. If you know what I mean??
I know Ife don't have the best temperament but I have talk about her breeding with several Japanese Kai breeders and many other breeders and I'm going to breed her. She don't like strange people that's it but she never ever has tried to bite people in purpose to hurt.
And then little about the Karelians... You can take the KBD out from Finland but you never can take its Karelian nature out of it
I am sorry about the "hunting crazyness", I just meant their hunting instincts, and the karelians I have met had PLENTY
With regards to kai breeding, you are so right. It really is difficult with such a limited genepool, in Denmark there are 5 kai at this moment. American female, japanese male and 3 pups from the american female and a french male of american lines, though not from same kennel as the female. We have limited access to breeding material, which sucks, but I think with determination and effort we can make a decent breedingprogramme here in Scandinavia
I am going to help Tina any way I can!
For example: there are a lot of divides in the Border Collie world: You have some that are really neurotic, like the ones bred for sheep trails; then you have the ones that are fairly bold, like the ones bred for cattle work; sport-bred ones are extremely drivey; the flashy show ring type; and finally, you have the placid pet ones.
I always find it a bit humourous when the sheep people complain about other people ruining the breed when 1) the sheep market in the States is extremely small, 2) there is a huge difference between ABCA collie bred in the States and ISDS collie bred in Scotland, 3) the ones bred for the trials are not appropriate for cattle, and 4) there are not enough working homes out there.
What I do have a problem with is people misrepresenting their breeding stock. No, the trial is not an accurate way of judging a dog's ability to work. No, your dog cannot work because it's too psychotic. No, your dog is too timid and would get brained by a cow. So therefore your dog is not properly working.
Besides, I am sure the ones who complain the dogs are too watered down for hunting-- isn't it a matter of personal perspective?
So in this case, I would say the dogs you are selecting for represent the culture you are within. If anything, it would be diversifying the gene pool.
Sorry, didn't mention the temperament because of Ife. I Don't worry about her, think she's still so young, that you can work on it, I'm sure. Have you tried show training?
Near by, we have this training, with a good coach, and some nice calm and steady people, with a lot of dog experience, who knows how to take contact, and train the dogs for being touched by strangers. It gives a lot, because you, as a handler, is more relaxed in a training situation, than in a stressed out show situation. It's very giving for unsure dogs, and also for unsure handlers ;-)
It's worth a try, if possible in Finland.
About breeding, yes, we have a very small population to breed, in Scandinavia, but I'm sure, that we can make something nice out of it, and maybe, as times go by, the population increases.