Puppy very shy towards people and going outside
So I've been lurking these boards for a while and have learned a lot of things regarding NK's. So now that I have an NK of my own I was wondering if you guys can help me out with a problem I am having.
My 10 week old puppy seems to shy away from new people and is scared when people approach her.
Also she is terrified to go outside for walks, she will literally just stand there and shake and run towards the front of the house. She goes to the poppy just fine in the backyard but if we try to leave the property she will just freaks. When I actually do get her out on a walk she will walk in the opposite direction of any persons voice she hears. I've been trying to take her out the past two weeks socialize her but it doesn't seem to be working? I took her to a puppy social last night and she just sat underneath a chair for the whole hour not playing with any of the other pups which is weird because she has no problem harassing my 90lb pit/rot.
Have any of you guys experienced this? Has anyone's dog ever just stopped being scared? Any thoughts on what can be done or am I doomed to have a fearful antisocial dog?
**Sorry to mention I have a Kishu. No petstore puppy.
My 10 week old puppy seems to shy away from new people and is scared when people approach her.
Also she is terrified to go outside for walks, she will literally just stand there and shake and run towards the front of the house. She goes to the poppy just fine in the backyard but if we try to leave the property she will just freaks. When I actually do get her out on a walk she will walk in the opposite direction of any persons voice she hears. I've been trying to take her out the past two weeks socialize her but it doesn't seem to be working? I took her to a puppy social last night and she just sat underneath a chair for the whole hour not playing with any of the other pups which is weird because she has no problem harassing my 90lb pit/rot.
Have any of you guys experienced this? Has anyone's dog ever just stopped being scared? Any thoughts on what can be done or am I doomed to have a fearful antisocial dog?
**Sorry to mention I have a Kishu. No petstore puppy.
Comments
This type of behavior is incredibly common in petstore puppies. If that's where she came from then that explains it, and it can also happen with rescues since they often come from mills or stores. If she came from a breeder, was it a good one, or someone who had a litter of pups from their pets?
My Shiba Inu came from a rescue who'd gotten him out of a puppy mill. He was scared of anyone who wasn't me, and it's taken months to get him to the point where he'll stand beside some people but not all of them. Occasionally he will try to get away from someone and due to his fear of strangers, nobody is ever allowed to pet him while he's on the leash unless he asks for it.
What you need to do is very very slowly work on getting her used to new things and other people. With Conker, that meant sitting as far as 100 feet away from someone and completely ignoring them and playing games with Conker and giving him treats and such. I slowly decreased the distance and made sure that if he ever got uncomfortable that we either up and left or stepped back a bit. I did this with everything he was afraid of since strangers wasn't the only thing.
Conker does a lot better with people if he's off-leash or in his home. Even then nobody is allowed to pet him unless he asks and I tell everyone that no matter how cute he is, it's best to just ignore him and let him come explore around them at his own pace. If he brings a toy, great, play with him but still don't touch him. Anyone who doesn't listen to my instructions isn't welcome until they do.
When you go to leave, try to make it fun. Bring a favorite toy or some treats she really loves with you. Sit right outside the door and play with her or give her treats so she thinks that being outside can be fun. If she gets to the point where being outside the door is fine then slowly increase the distance from the door, etc.
I use this method with anything Conker shows fear of.
Be sure to not give her treats/pet her when she's really scared though. A lot of the time dogs won't even accept them, but if they are scared of something and you pet them to calm them down, that only re-enforces that being scared is the right thing to do.
Conker wasn't afraid the my Jeep the first day I had him, he actually thought it was really awesome. But I hit one of those concrete guard rails on the freeway (no damage thankfully) and since then riding in cars isn't one of Conker's favorite things anymore. I had to show him that the Jeep isn't bad by having him sit outside it and eat his dinner, then eat inside the Jeep, then eat while it was running, then moving... He still doesn't like the Jeep but at least he doesn't freak out in it.
Just remember to be very patient, never yell at her for not doing something you want. Always try to make it fun and if she's terrified, get her out of the situation so she can't ingrain it in her mind that that is what to do.
Sorry that was so long, and I hope it helped a little. I'm sure some of the other members will have other good ideas to try.
How does the pup react to visitors in the house?
Lets see some pics!
At only 10 weeks you haven't had her for long; it will take some time for any pup to adjust, should be an easy cure at this stage.
Did you pick her up directly from the breeder, or was she flown in?
On the other hand Sushi (Shiba Inu) will actually wait in front of the door to go outside, play with at least 5 10 year old kids and hunt everything on his sight.
Kiba was a female and she was abused by my 7 years old Female Jack Russell (same sex agression) and she was always defensive, I had to give her to my uncle who has friendly dogs and a really big backyard. I visit her 3 times a week, now she seems better and more outgoing than ever.
@ Losech - I'm going to try what you suggested. I've had Yumi sit right next to my gate and she can see the street. Sometimes she is fine other times she freaks out. When I open the gate she seems as though she wants to investigate but once a car goes by she just tries to run back into the house. I've tried feeding her meals close to the gate and she does fine but as soon as something spooks her she tries to scarf her meal down and run back in...
@Saya - I don't really walk my pup I just try to get her out in front of the house to watch and listen to the outside world. Most of the time I have to resort to just holding her and even than she just shakes. When visitors come I just tell people to leave her alone and let her come up to you.
@shishiinu - I'll post pictures as soon as I can.
@brada1878 - I will feed her treats when I see she is calm other than that if I see her scared I won't feed her treats.
@cmpteki - interesting that you bring up the smelly treats I noticed something when I tried to bring her outside today. Yumi freaked when a car drove so I decided to just bring her inside. When I took out my keys the noise from my keys made her look at my hand and she stayed focused on it and didn't freak when another car drove by. I don't know if it is a onetime thing or not but I will be trying this with liver next time to see if I can keep her attention on me. She was flown in from the breeder.
What do you guys suggest in terms of socialization if she is afraid to go outside?
from a quiet, safe and friendly environment, to a noisy, messy and dangerous lets say place, she might feel insecure. I would have try giving her a treat every time I took her outside, or every time a stranger tries to pet her. Catching her attention with toys and treats and words like "good girl" should let her know that the outside is safe and fun, and nothing to be scared of.
I'm teaching Sushi to go potty outside, so he know every time he is outside doing his stuff he gets a chance of getting a treat.
Cheers
If your pup is 10 weeks old, you only have about 3 weeks until the primary socialization window starts to close! If I were you I would start feeding my puppy in every situation possible, no matter how they are acting. Later in her life, you can reshape behaviors you inadvertently reinforce with treats during the socialization window now, but you will never have another primary socialization window again with your pup to build positive associations with stimuli. If your pup is taking treats, even when she is fearful, then she is begging you to build a positive association for her, I mean that's a perfect situation. Get out there and feed feed feed your puppy!
Dr. Jennifer Messer writes...
"Classical and operant are always both occurring in any learning situation. However, classical usually overrides operant when the behavior is an emotional response (such as a fear response). Unless the dog seems to be playing a "fear card" (operantly behaving fearfully... so operating the environment by purposefully acting fearfully in order to score a food reward from the human) - which would be a pretty bizarre MO - it only makes sense to use a classical approach: follow fear-inducing stimuli with treat for classical effect, even if you accidentally go over threshold and see the fear response (because ideally you will try to stay under threshold, which makes the whole question moot, anyhow). Proof is in the pudding - if it is going to "reward the fear" the dog will get worse. I have yet to see that occur!"
Here is more info on Classical Conditioning: http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/classical-conditioning
Also, here is some info on the social development of dogs (puppies): http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/puppy-personality-development
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@onetrackmind - The reason I asked if she was flown in...not all airlines are nice...so she may have just had a very stressful, very loud, very noisy, very scary trip; despite being in her kennel, which should be a safe place. Once she realizes the outside world is not nearly so bad, she will be fine. Regardless, I am happy to hear that Yumi did better at an additional social. Enjoy your pup!
Having written that, I tend to disagree with your above text in this situation, where we are talking about a fearful 10 week old puppy. It's my personal opinion that, with the exception of training name recognition/recall and obviously potty training, most OB/manners training should wait until after the puppy is past the primary socialization window. While the puppy is in the primary socialization period, which ends after 14 weeks of age, I would focus all my efforts on Classical Conditioning.
Also, when a pup is fearful, there is very little positive learning going on. You're not going to get any amazing results training a fearful puppy with operant conditioning. The puppy needs to move past the fear issue, and the best way to do that is by forming a physiological positive association (via Classical Conditioning).
As to the point about "focus training", and having the puppy look to the handler for direction. Why add the extra "noise" to the situation of trying to get the puppy to move, or calm, or sit before you treat them? Simply treating the puppy reinforces your role as a provider of resources, which will help create a positive association between the handler and the pup, which then reinforces the pup's focus on the handler without the added pressure of trying to reinforce specific behaviors.
Later, when the pup is past the primary socialization window, and positive associations have been made, you can spend all the time you want shaping behaviors (manners) and extinguish unwanted behaviors - the dog has it's whole life for you to accomplish that - but only a few weeks where you can "imprint" positive associations (via "temperament training" - classical conditioning).
I tend tend to follow a science-based "engineering" approach to raising a puppy. That is to say, I focus on building a strong foundation, doing the highest payoff activities first, so that later the dog has more flexibility and a more "usable temperament".
That's just my opinion tho - formed from my experiences raising pups.
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That being said; the bulk of pup raising I have done has been on an acreage in the country; hard to have noise related fear conditions when there is little to no noise...the ignore and distract method has worked great for me with all little ones though; two or four legged...
As with anything else, different people have had different experiences with pretty much any given style of training, and even at that, every dog is unique, and not all pups will respond the same way to each method. Only the individual owner who is present can make the call as to how mild, or how serious, the problem is, and figure out what works best for them, and seek help if needed. This early puppy stage really should be spent enjoying time together and bonding with one another; the rest comes later.
Regardless, now that some more time has passed, and a second socialization session was much improved, and a noise distraction (key jungle) is interupting the fear fixations, it sounds like @onetrackmind and Yumi are on 'the right track'. Bring on the puppy pics!
So, to answer your question, YES... We mops def use a secondary reinforcer during socialization. You know, we use happy talk and makers to encourage the pup to explore the environment. Like what you described - if a pup is fearful of an object we might "mark" every time he/she looks at the object and reward them for it... Or, if the pup is approaching a new dog in a friendly way we'd give them a "goooood boy/girl" type of reinforcement. We'll even use a marker for punishment too, like what Ian Dunbar called "Binary Feedback".
What what we wont do is ask a young puppy to give a perfect sit and watch us, focusing all our attention on training that behavior and meanwhile missing tons of opportunities to form those positive socialization with the environment. Seems like wasted opportunity, ya know?
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@cmpteki - From my experiences with Shikoku pups, they tend to be extroverts. They start a bit shy/insecure and then develop into more confident dogs who are more open to seeing new things - like a lab or a Pittie.
That's not the case with all breeds, like the Shiba Inu or Kai Ken. To me, they lean more towards being introverts, where they start more confident and outgoing and then mature into more suspicious dogs.
I guess that is why I am such a freak about Classical Conditioning young puppies. In breeds like the CO, BB, CC, Kai, Akita, or Shiba that early classical conditioning during the primary socialization window should just not be wasted. With a CO, as a very young pup, you waste too much time pressuring them during training and it will come back to bite you in the ass in the forum of aggression. That's why I am all about letting a puppy be a puppy, focus on that classical conditioning when they are young, let them be goofy puppies, then teach them manners later.
Again tho, like you said, there is more than one way to eat that elephant... This is just my preferred method.
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