NK Fore/Hindquarters

TheWalrus

Taken from Everything About the Nihon Ken published by NIPPO, here are diagrams and explanations about the standard for fore/hindquarters.

One day I will get around to translating the entire standard. 

lindsayt

An interesting thing about the Shiba Standard was discussed at this years National by Pat Hastings. Ours is the only standard that requires the lower thigh to be shorter than the upper thigh. That's a recipe for a straight leg. It's impossible to have good conformation, by following that guideline.

MirkaM

Thanks for sharing this! This is very informative for me right now because Nuuk did get mention about poor angulations in the back (like every Japanese breeds specimen did from the same judge). I looking forward the translation .

ayk

My conformation friend broached how many Jindos have less angulation than what Pat Hastings presented and asked about the function of less angulation. (In Jindos, drop down from point of buttocks is not in front of the rear toes but along the back of the hocks.) We didn't really get a satisfactory answer.

I seriously wonder if in traveling through mountaineous terrain if there are advantages to straighter angulation.

TheWalrus

Ann, I was thinking about that myself...

StaticNfuzz

Interesting about the comparisons. In the second drawing about proper joint angle, I don't know that the drawing really shows it that well, even in the diagram of "proper", it looks rather straight.
As ayk points out, the line from point of butt to toe hits in the rear of the pad, not in front of the toe.

As far as "upper thigh" and "lower thigh"....one really needs to look at Pat's book (An Eye for a Dog) to determine where that is (how it is defined) as a comparative to the Japanese diagram. Pat's plumb line drop from point of hip to front of toe seems to be for a very different type of reach in a dog, maybe more drive coming from the back/rear rather then the front. Don't know. It would have been nice to have video of her seminar in regard to Shibas to elaborate on this discussion.

Lindsay, out of curiosity were there any handouts or diagrams that Pat presented that could be shared?

Will be interesting to read the translation of the Japanese standard of the above diagrams.

Snf

Calia

LoL, I was trying to remember where I saw the images in the first pic, and found it in the back of the book Japanese Dogs: Akita, Shiba, and Other Breeds by Michiko Chiba and Lucy North. I'm really curious to see a translated version of the second pic though

lindsayt

I think I actually have a translation of the diagram in my files, I have to go look. I did not attend Nationals, but I do intend to ask Pat to do a litter eval at some point as she lives within driving distance to me, just for fun.

BradA1878

Straight backends seems to be a pretty common issue with most spitz-type breeds, even the less-refined ones (like the Laika and Jindo).

Some of the hauling breeds have that pendulum hip gate, I think it's because it helps them to initially pull heavy loads. Perhaps that's why you see the straight rearends in a lot of them... So, maybe that is where the other spitz-type dogs got their tendency toward straightness, from those aboriginal hauling breeds.

tjbart17

Very interesting to see. Koda is naturally at 122. I really need to start paying attention to this on other dogs and compare.

@lindsayt Good point. Shibas do seem to have straighter legs.

lindsayt

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/184391_1831847606712_1556064597_31908791_3234961_n.jpg

lindsayt

Does that link work for people?

lindsayt

BradA1878

Cool!

lindsayt

The emphasis on angulation is moderation. The dog in my profile picture is very moderately angled for a Shiba. He has good front and rear assemblies for the breed, but he is nothing like what is seen with a Doberman or similar purposed dog. We need to remember than NK are not coursing or moving breeds, and movement and angles shouldn't be like a herding breed. That said, a Shiba with angles such as allow his toes to fall behind the plumb line of the rear point, does present a nicer picture as their lower thighs are longer, and this dog will have more rear drive and power, but this is not correct for the breed.

Forequarters
Shoulder blade and upper arm are moderately anuglated and approximately equal in length. Elbows are set close to the body and turn neither in nor out. Forelegs and feet are moderately spaced, straight, and parallel. Pasterns are slightly inclined. Removal of front dewclaws is optional. Feet are catlike with well-arched toes fitting tightly together . Pads are thick.

Hindquarters
The angulation of the hindquarters is moderate and in balance with the angulation of the forequarters. Hind legs are strong with a wide natural stance. The hock joint is strong, turning neither in nor out. Upper thighs are long and the second thighs short but well developed. No dewclaws. Feet as in forequarters.

StaticNfuzz

Shigeru: Thanks for posting this info. BTW (off topic)....Baron looks absolutely awesome. He has matured beautifully.

Lindsay: Yep the link works...Thanks! Again interesting.....I agree the gait will be entirely different between the two for sure.

Have seen it where 10 x 10 square ratio dog is selected over more correct type and also a dog that has a stance that puts tip of toes at plumb line behind. More like a basenji in some cases.

Side note: What I find interesting is the fact in wild dogs or canids, there never is a really wide square stance in the rear or front, and overly short ratio. There has to be something to the natural selection process that puts slight toe out in front and turn in at the back which makes it more of an advantage in the everyday wild environment. Just a curious observation .......

Snf

sukoshi_mom

Here is the Chow Chow standard, which I became interested in because Sukoshi may have Chow somewhere in her background. Note the discussion of hindquarters and gait.
http://www.akc.org/breeds/chow_chow/

Since Chows may have been thrown into to some of the Nihon Ken mix, I thought folks would find this interesting. A well developed hindquarters/rear leg assembly could be an advantage for extended hill climbing (maybe for hours?).

Sukoshi has never done what I call the "Shiba prance". Her gait has always been kind of "straight" -- despite the HD.

Hoshi, on the other hand, is a much smaller Shiba. He does the Shiba trot and prance. Perhaps because he is old, the gait in the back is kind of cute - the rear feet go around and in front of each other on a fairly straight line. At age 14, he still has "springs" on his feet. He can make the most amazing, goat-like leaps.

Brego_mellon_nin

Thanks for posting this Shigeru.
Always nice to learn more

lindsayt

Here's a better translation I found to compliment Shigeru's first image: