Belgian Shepherd Dogs
I am very interested in these breeds, particularly the Malinois and Tervuren.
Though I am generally attracted to dogs that are aloof and independent, I would also like to own a dog that can easily (compared to a Shiba) be trained for things like obedience, agility, etc. that is active with a protective streak thrown in there. Some of the things I do I do alone and often in the middle of nowhere, and a 24 pound Shiba isn't very intimidating. (That's not the main reason I want a bigger dog, but it's a point I do think is valid.)
I've whittled the list of breeds down some and the Malinois or Tervuren sticks out the most to me as a breed I might peruse sometime in the near future. As much as I'd like that to be a Nihon Ken, I don't think that one's going to happen for a good many years and I am okay with that.
While reading breed profiles does give you a good idea of what the dog can be like, I think it's often better to learn from someone who's actually had experience with the breed and know what they are like.
So I was curious if any forum members have had or currently own one (I think there's at least one?) and what the particulars of the breed are that you've noticed. Like temperament/personality quirks, trainaibility, activity level or whatever else might pop into your head.
Though I am generally attracted to dogs that are aloof and independent, I would also like to own a dog that can easily (compared to a Shiba) be trained for things like obedience, agility, etc. that is active with a protective streak thrown in there. Some of the things I do I do alone and often in the middle of nowhere, and a 24 pound Shiba isn't very intimidating. (That's not the main reason I want a bigger dog, but it's a point I do think is valid.)
I've whittled the list of breeds down some and the Malinois or Tervuren sticks out the most to me as a breed I might peruse sometime in the near future. As much as I'd like that to be a Nihon Ken, I don't think that one's going to happen for a good many years and I am okay with that.
While reading breed profiles does give you a good idea of what the dog can be like, I think it's often better to learn from someone who's actually had experience with the breed and know what they are like.
So I was curious if any forum members have had or currently own one (I think there's at least one?) and what the particulars of the breed are that you've noticed. Like temperament/personality quirks, trainaibility, activity level or whatever else might pop into your head.
Comments
Here is the link for the Northern America Dutch Shepherd Rescue :
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org/
One of my friends in Northern CA fosters Dutchies
Living with Belgian Malinois
Written as experienced by Corina Annette Gonzalez
Malinois are loyal and loving with their owners and household family members. This breed prefers to live inside the home with her people. While they don't make for the greatest of house dogs...it’s important to accept and include her as part of the family. This breed needs an understanding owner to teach her proper house manners, to forgive little mistakes (i.e. rearranging household items or defluffing throw pillows) and appreciate their quirks (i.e. collecting random household items in one spot: crate, bed, area of a room, etc. or helping themselves to unattended food items). They have been known to have overexagerated separation anxiety at times (Malinois can be such drama queens and kings) so the dog should be taught that the world will not come crashing down should she be left alone for a few hours. While they do rely a lot on their people, they are also independent thinkers.
They are pack-orientated animals (but some have less pack drive then others) and with proper guidance can develop into great family pets, however they may or may not tolerate strangers. As a general rule they are not typically stranger friendly but some are a bit more open and accepting of new people. Though they can be social tolerant, this doesn’t mean that they should be subjected to any “harassment” or excessive petting from anyone if the dog is uncomfortable. Ownership of this breed means using good judgment to avoid any stressful situations for both the dog and other people. The dog should be taught to mind her manners in public, reguardless of temperment/personality. Proper, ongoing exposure and socialization is essential and necessary for the Malinois. As Malinois tend to have a low-tolerance threshold and are quick to react.
Just like children they test their boundaries, to see what they can get away with. They are super clever but still possess a very child-like way of thinking. They require a loving but firm handling to keep them in check.
Mali’s seem to have an insane amount of energy; extremely high drive. So they do need plenty of physical and mental exercises to keep themselves sane (and their people too!) =]. Mental stimulation is important since their brains are constantly on the go. So you'd be doing your dog a favor by giving her a job. It is essential for this breed to have some kind of job or task to perform.
Most Malinois are involved in performance venues (i.e. obedience, agility and flyball), sportwork (i.e. schutzhund, french ring and mondio ring) or have actual working jobs (i.e. security, detection, search and rescue) and then do chores around the house during their “off-days” =].
In the right home, the Malinois can become a valued family member. However, should they be left to their own devices, especially when bored…they will become destructive and often invent their own games much to their owner’s dismay.
http://www.airreyalis.com/Malinois.html
Links:
http://www.malinoisrescue.org/
http://www.malinoisclub.com/abmc/
http://www.workingmalinois.org/
I bailed out a young, very sweet and good looking Malinois boy from the Animal Shelter last March of 2011. I was working in co-operation with The Woof Project (http://www.woofproject.com/). Contact is Sonya, please give her a call or send her an e-mail if you are seriously interested in a Malinois. We have LOTS of great Belgians that are in need of homes and fosters. She is close enough to you, I believe. You can always try to foster a well-tempered and social Malinois to see if this is a breed that you can live with and enjoy.
If you are interested in a Tervuren or personal protection Malinois...please contact me privately. I have some leads! Especially, a possible and still available Terv puppy (male). =p
*** EDIT: The Terv puppy I'm refering to is from working lines so he doesn't have a long coat like the show Tervs. He has a shorter coat but it is longer and plushier then a Mali. ***
Temperament
---> They are very drivey, think GSD x 100. I really feel like the only thing GSD & Dutchies have in common are the word "Shepherd" lol That said, they will be MORE than willing to do ANYTHING you want them to do. Hiking, walking, running, obedience, tracking, agility...& obviously, any of the bite-sport work. I'm very confident that Wraith would enjoy doing any activity, as long as they're doing SOMETHING.
That said, I haven't formally trained him in anything particular. Having a bit of trouble finding a place I like down here that's within a reasonable driving distance. I've only dabbled in minor stuff at home, however, anything I do with him he approaches with extreme excitement. They really do feel like a "do anything" / multi-purpose type of dog. It's really amazing.
They are also affectionate. I can't speak for all dutchies, but mine is ridiculously social---to a fault. He LOVES everyone & everything. It can be a little overbearing sometimes for other people to see a 75lb dog lunging at them, but it's only so that he can forcefully deliver his love through kisses lol He is great with all other dogs, big and small. He self-handicaps very well when playing, but when he knows a dog really well, he does roughhouse quite a bit. [ forgets his own strength ] He's 2 years old...but still 100% puppy. He drives Fate, my shikoku, crazy as Fate doesn't like playing in the house...but Wraith never wants to stop playing.
Another note would be...my boy doesn't seem to understand not all dogs are social like he is. The neighbor's shihtzu has come up [ off leash ] running full force at him & attacked him on the face, & Wraith did nothing. Likewise, other dogs have given him clear "GO AWAY!!!" signals, & all Wraith did was play-bow & try to get them to play. He's a naive boy
That said, and this seems to vary both with Belgians & Dutch, from dog-to-dog...some have an "off" switch [ to be calm in the house ] & some don't. Wraith, does not. However, some of his littermates do. That said, I have to force him to chill out. Whether it means putting him into a stay consistently until he "gets it," ignoring his attempts to initiate play, &/or crating him for a while.
He is also not very nervy. Has a very high tolerance to fear and agitation, but at the same time, this means you must be hard hard in training them. Pretty happy-go-lucky in that most things don't bother them / phase them. They have a high threshold before they react negatively.
Personality Quirks
---> I don't know if this is true for all dutchies, but it seems they can get frustrated easily. As an example, Wraith knows sit VERY well, he's been doing it since day one. However, when I ask him to sit, & he's excited [ ex: wanting to go outside ] he will whine / fuss a bit. I think this may just be a maturity thing though, as it's slowly going away, but it can be annoying! lol
---> They also seem almost always in "GO GO GO!!" mode. It can be a lot to handle sometimes, but again, as he gets older he's starting to learn there's a time to chill & a time to be a crazy puppy
---> They're really "nosey." They love sticking their noses into things. Much like a Pitbull. They'll come up & poke you with their nose too...it's the dutchie way of saying "HI!"
---> Very affectionate, but not quite velcro. As an example, if I leave Wraith outside, but stand behind the sliding glass door, it upsets him...but not in a separation anxiety sort of way [ he doesn't have this ] but in a "I'm not there to watch you!" sort of way. Another example would be, whenever hubby or I am on the computer, Wraith will be around the room doing his own thing...but every 30 minutes or so he "checks in" by forcibly shoving his head under our arm & forcing us into a "hug." It's pretty cute
---> VERY impulsive. As in, Wraith hears the door knob jiggle, assumes that means it magically opened, & rams his head into the door. Teaching him some impulse control has helped immensely. There's a saying that goes something like, GSDs think first then act...Mals / Dutch act first, think later.
Trainability
---> You can teach them to do anything, end of story. LOL Very easy to train. They're very in-tune to working, & they seem to know "OK! It's time to WORK" & put on a serious face. However, like any dog, you have to have the OTHER PEOPLE who interact with them follow the rules. Acitivity Level
---> It's ridiculous. LOL I haven't found out where they get all the energy yet. I think they have a small nuclear plant inside them powering them! I have only seen Wraith GENUINELY tired once in his life, under a very special circumstance. I have walked him for 15 miles, let him free-play off leash & run around outside with Fate, as well as spend 20 minutes having him retrieve things...only to have him come inside, lay down for 10 minutes, & get back up wanting to play again. LOL HOWEVER, this may be due to his "lack of off switch." I plan on buying a pack for him so he can carry weights, & hopefully that'll help slow him down. [ as well as the natural maturing process ]
Anything Else
---> I have to say I LOVE my boy. For all his quirks, I still can't imagine my life without a dutchie! He's social, he's fearless, he's confident, he's smart, he's a quick learner...he also likes to push buttons, and is definitely NOT the breed for everyone. I will also say, working-line dogs SUCK as puppies. LOL! He would bite me because he was bored, he would chew on everything, even metal, and he never wanted to stop playing! They're very hard puppies to raise...as Corina said, you HAVE To be firm with them. "Give an inch, & they'll take a mile!" comes to mind. At the same time, he's also sweet, but not overly clingy, affectionate, but independent. I love my boy so much, I KNOW I have to get another one! lol [ if not a dutch, maybe a mal! I still haven't decided lol ] They are also NOT easy dogs to live with, but they CAN be. It depends on the dog...how you raise them...etc. But...raising that terror of a puppy into this amazing dog...it's just so rewarding. [ vs my shikoku Fate, probably the most un-shikoku ever, who was pretty much born an adult...LOL ]
Sorry, I know that was a lot! But things just kept popping into my head haha
Wraith is from Vrijheid Dutch Shepherds, if you want someone to explain more, Asheley is a really awesome. She's like the perfect blend of what you expect from a breeder, and her dogs are awesome, or at least, what they produce! LOL I'm afraid to get a dutchie from anyone else thinking they'll turn out different then my boy!
Some older photos of him...I need to take some updated ones.
http://sangmort.net/osy/07222011_wraithfate/5.jpg
http://sangmort.net/osy/07222011_wraithfate/15.jpg
& of course, a puppy pic for good measure
http://sangmort.net/osy/ds_boy/4.jpg
^^^^ To that...this is the reason I actually got a dutchie. LOL I'm only 5' tall & we had quite a few thugs hanging around, even in the nice area. Couple that with all the break-ins in homes in 1 year [ 14 ] in our subdivision....yeah...It's pretty funny, as I don't think my boy is scary at all, but most people, even "dog" people stand about 25feet away yelling "WHAT A PRETTY DOG!" But don't come any closer, even when I invite them over to pet him! hahaha ~
Lynxiene was social with people up until about 3-3 1/2 years of age and then she decided she didn't want to be pet by strangers anymore. She is fine standing next to people or sitting in a crowd so long as no one touches her. I think she also does "okay" when I hand her off to friendly or neutral people (which I don't do often and then I leave the room). I'm always surprised when I send her into the vet WITH a muzzle and then they bring her out WITHOUT a muzzle! I've seen Lynx give kisses to vet techs and doctors before too - which kinda makes me nervous, "Are you sure you brought me back the right dog?!" She doesn't trust many people but when she likes you, you have her loyalty, lol!
@ShikokuSpirit As much as I'd love to take you up on that Terv pup, I can't at this moment. People would explode if I brought a pup home without much of a discussion, and since the "people" I am referring to are in Hawaii... Yep, that would be odd to come home to XD
"Hey, I'm getting a Terv pup! Thought I'd let you know..."
As far as coat goes, I would much rather have a working coat than show coat. I am really not into plush pillow dogs. I'd prefer a coat that is easier to manage and doesn't attract as many decorations if I had the choice. I still really like the Tervs though, so they aren't knocked off the list only because of the coat.
@Sangmort Wraith sounds so cool! I haven't met a Dutchie but I've seen a couple. He seems like a dog that I would love to own.
@shibamistress I guess that's why there are so many breeds of dog. Not everyone wants a rocket on legs, so they bred what they wanted and someone else liked it so they did that too, and now there's so many breeds it's quite hard to choose just one.
Conker is actually a little too lazy for me. I thought he would be more active but he's really settled down a lot since I moved to Oregon. That was a bit disappointing (but I still love him the same) and if he don't wanna I'm not gonna make him. It would be nice to have a dog who would urge me to go an extra 5 miles rather than take a shortcut back to the car though. The place where I take him hiking has all sorts of trails and he knows which ones go where and when we come up to an intersection after about 3 or 4 miles, he wants to go back. He will stand on the trail that leads to the parking lot if I don't take it and stare at me with evil Shiba eyes. He does like hiking and does enjoy the rest of the hike if I don't go back right away, but I can tell he'd rather go back than continue if he keeps stopping at the connecting trails.
He only likes to do the longer 10 mile hikes every now and then, not twice a week how I like. I'm hoping to be able to coax him into liking longer hikes with many treats and fun games, but again, if he don't wanna, I'm not gonna make him. (If I run the entire time, or if Juneau is present, he'll do 15 miles easy. Dunno what's up with that. I guess walking is boring?)
Juneau on the other hand, while she's mainly in "off" mode around the house, if I take her out hiking or to play fetch she'll go go go until she drops. So far 5 pounds of water doesn't slow her down one bit. But, she just had a tooth extraction and is on a low-activity schedule for a while so I can't take the "LETS GO HIKING FOR MILES AND MILES!" dog with me right now.
(Juneau and her sister Sasha aren't actually mine, I just say they are, which is why I am looking into getting my own bigger dog.)
Now if you had a Dutchie or a Mal.....Wouldn't happen!
But, I have spoken to Wraith's breeder about this. She said the males seem to be very silly and social, while the females are much more serious & reserved. So who knows? lol If he stays like this...great! If he changes...that's fine too!
Lynxiene is so cute. Of course she'll only like CERTAIN people, she's a woman after all! lol
@Losech - haha yeah, a dutchie or mal would totally be up for hiking 2x a week---even if it killed them! That's the problem, you got to know their limits & stop them, as they won't stop themselves!
@shibamistress - They're so not for everyone! When Wraith was a puppy especially, I could totally see the importance of stressing that! Man, I do not miss those puppy days!! LOL [ they were painful! ] ~
@Losech - This is one of my favorite Lynx puppy photos (at 11 weeks of age):
Profile shot of face at 12 weeks of age:
Super cute infant baby video of her at 8 weeks! I do love Lynx right now but I so miss her being a puppy. I had a lot of fun with her in her puppy days. This video was taken when Lynx was still at the breeder's house.
This is what Lynx looks like now:
Lynx is so cute!!! oh God. I want another mali or dutch!!! LOL ~
Both of them are great at guarding my house from anyone who comes by! They will growl and sound off in an impressive way. I think it's kind've cool. It could annoy people. They also are over the top with loving me. They show so much affection and love to hug and kiss me and lay on my lap.
I couldn't say more about how much I adore them. They are like my stepdogs.
They have extreme separation anxiety and they are very loud about it! If you live in an area where houses are close together, then you might have your neighbors upset with you. Their owner owns a business and brings the younger dogs to work during the day. They are not left alone. That's why they come over here a lot. If they are by chance bored in the yard. BTW these people own an amazing ranch home with stables and a barn. A billionaire built it for a summer home. I couldn't believe any dog would get bored there, but they do and jump the fence and come to my house. It's a bit scary since they cross a pretty busy street. But they are really smart dogs.
Brock has become quite anti-social in the past two months. It's like he's turning into a man now. He did just have an incident with a neighbor who tried to pet him. Trip is still a goofy puppy, so we'll have to see if she becomes aggressive towards strangers. I guess that's the only concern I have with them. All but one of their Malinois has had an incident at some point, and that was Buddy. He past two years ago at 14 years old. He was a great dog.
They are amazing with obedience and all have their own game they like to play. Brock does flyball, and Trip recently started learning tricks with the frisby. They are very toy motivated. She can jump over her six foot tall owner! And she jumps on his back to get the frisby. There are lots of tricks, but those are the coolest.
I think I get the best of both worlds. I get to play with them whenever I want, but unfortunately with my lifestyle a Mal just wouldn't work.
They are such interesting dogs! Love Tara's stories about the "step dogs." But what about the incidents? Does that mean they bit someone? Or?
I had a colleague years ago in Michigan who had a Mal who had been trained for PPD, but ended up not working out, so they sold him as an adult, already trained. He was an older gentleman, about 8 or 9 when I first met him, and had not slowed down even remotely. He was ball obsessive. And was pretty friendly with everyone IF he'd been introduced to the person first. Not so friendly with people he hadn't met, but mostly that was just that he had a really hard stare that he'd use on people too, to make it clear that he did not want you near him or his person, or his person's property (and from my pov, I know if I saw that hard stare directed at me, I would not want to do anything else to make the dog feel he needed to go further). But he was super well trained--the guy who owned never had say anything twice to the dog, and never in a loud voice, and you know I realize in the couple of years I knew them (and we would take our GSD to play with the Mal and go for walks) I never saw him use any sort of training method that I could see at all--no choke collar (it was in the 90s too, when even I was still using them), no treats/clicker, etc. I guess the dog already knew all that, and just responded impeccably to voice commands, and hand signals at a distance. He did use a tennis ball as a motivator sometimes as the dog was obsessive. He never walked him on a leash, and he's one of the few dogs that I've known well that was absolutely completely under control off leash.
But the thing I remember most was the dog was pretty loud in terms of barking, and since my colleague lived on the same street, we'd walk by their house sometimes on walks, and we could see and hear the Mal barking like crazy, and you'd see him springing at the window by the door--Mal head appears, then disappears, etc. I guess there was once an incident: the dog hated the mail man, and once broke through the side window by the door trying to get the mail man. It wasn't really wide enough for him to get out, but obviously, he got hurt by the glass. They put in some super strong sort of security glass after that. And I thought that's one intense dog--he'll break through glass with his body trying to get at a person! Yikes!
He was a pretty amazing dog!
@shibamistress Interesting story.
Juneau's gone through the glass to get to the mail lady once... I don't think it was in a truly malicious way, but she definitely broke the glass while being protective of the house. She used to jump against the little windows beside the door when the mail lady came. She doesn't do that anymore though, not since she broke it, cut her leg open and scattered blood everywhere. She's gotten out before (we fixed that) and will guard the yard from people walking by if we aren't out there. If we are, she'll be all happy and love everyone but as soon as you go inside and leave her alone, she turns into a guard dog.
It's funny, since we haven't replaced the window yet and just have it covered with cardboard so when the Girls are barking at something, Conker can't see, so he'll just stand there with his face against the cardboard barking.
With that said, I would trust these dogs with my life! They are the kind've dogs that would attack to save you and from what I see would never turn on their family. I've even seen them get worked up, and my friend will go near their mouth. They have never accidentally bitten him. I would stop a fight with them and I don't think they would lose control and deflect on me. With that said, once they show aggression, I wouldn't take them to a place where they could get in trouble.
From what I can tell, they have a sort of anxiety about them that makes them have separation/stranger anxiety but also gives them an amazing ability to "work". What Corina does with Lynx in the ring is perfect. They are not for the novious owner though, and require a lot of attention and work. @Shikokuspirit please correct me if I'm wrong. You have way more experience with a wide range of lines.
My uncle has trained police dogs for 35 years. He will not work with them at all. He hasn't for 15 years. Our police departments in the area will not use them. Mostly because he trains all their dogs. He won't work with them because he says they are all bite and no grip. He says their anxiety is too high for a human to control them when they lose it and they react when they don't need to. But that's his opinion, although I can see his point.
For me, the Mals are a lot of fun to work with. They have endless amounts of energy and never tire of doing the same thing over and over again. (Unlike Shibas, who think two repetitions is torture.) I have contemplated adding a Mal to my family one day because of their endless energy. However, they do have a tendency to be prone to separation anxiety and I would like to avoid that if at all possible.
This is why I love Mals! They will play with me for hours!! While Koda thinks that it is peasant like to play fetch or frisbee.
I have never ruled out having one in the future. My friend keeps telling me that the next litter he's going to make me have one, but I just don't have the lifestyle or home to fit a Mal into my life and have it be fair to the dog. There are very few breeds I really like, and some of them like the Mal and Shikoku, I just don't have the home for. Maybe in the future though!