I am very interested in the history of Japanese breeds. And I am working on a little research. My question is, what foreign breeds were in Japan just after the ending of WW2?
haha... I know the GSD was a very popular breed in Japan around the time of the war. So, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some GSD mixing happening, but I have no info to prove that.
@Brada yes, that info is hard to find. I am working on some research, the only breeds that I know for sure are GSD, Dobes and Airdales. And for the GSD, you really can see the difference in a GSD from the States and a German dog.
In the book Ouko nihon ken shashine shue has a photo of a gsd/ Akita cross and a Kai/ asiatic wolf cross. Lots of info in that book about the different crosses.
Thanks Gen. I heard that a few Akita's and Tosa were hidden in that period, in an old article even was spoken that the Irish Setter was involved in restoring most breeds. So could we say that all Japanese breeds are really purebred after WW2? I mean, some breeders in Japan call the Tosa the "garbage dog" of Japan, because if a breed can improve the Tosa, it will be used. But if a GSD, Doberman, Airdale or even irish Setter ( and don't forget the APBT) was used to restore the Japanese breeds, in fact it's tyhe same as what goes for the Tosa. BTW, my intention is not to open old wounds for anybody, I am just interested. What was the situation of Kai, Shiba or other breeds in that period?
In terms of research, it's probably useful to know where some of these things come from. Like the Irish setter thing seems very unlikely to me too--as in why would Irish setters even be in Japan in this period? (At least during wartime Japan it doesn't make sense). GSDs make sense--Irish Setters do not. what was the source on that?
Because people are asking this question all the time--usually with kind of vague "I heard this somewhere" as "source" material (which is fine as a point of inquiry into research), I think it's probably useful for both kimputai and others to list some sources, that way they can be evaluated as good sources or not (if anyone has them, of course!)
So what kind of sources have you already looked at, kimputai? Anyone have any good suggestions on where to look for legitimate sources of information on this?
(I don't really have any further specific help--I'm only in the "I've heard this" sort of stage, because it's not anything I've ever bothered to research. So my comment was more on thinking about how to go about researching this, rather than being able to point you in specific directions).
My only resource is an oldtimer in Japan. He did send me the old pictures of the historical Japanese dogs, Kai, Odate, Tosa and Akita that never showed up on the internet. He has great knowledge, you send send him any kind of Japanese historical picture, and he knows the name of the dog and the year it was bred. You won't find a better source. But, I asked him about that period and he doesn't want to talk about, so I don't ask again. I respect that. He did told me that in that period there was a meeting between Japanese dogmen, and the name Irish setter frequently showed up.
Interesting! That's a cool resource too--how amazing that he knows the info. about the dogs! Maybe you could record some of the info. he's come up with for you as a source both for you and others wanting to do research? Oral histories like this are SO valuable, I think, and it's important to record the information and experiences of the elders before they are gone! (can you tell I worked in the Oral History program of a library many years ago?)
@shibamistress So now research is an interesting thing? :-) It's really strange how we met, a few years back I had a website about the Tosa Ken, so I posted some pictures of old Akita's and Tosa's. Another person from Japan emailed me and said: If you want to describe the history, better use the right info and right pictures, the info you are telling is all wrong. So he asked me of pictures from old European working breeds, I send him some, after that he send me the right info. The oldtimer doesn't work with internet, everything comes by old ordinary mail. I will ask.
There was certainly interest in Irish Setters at the turn of the century. There was a whole series of brief introductory articles about foreign breeds and gun dogs in the Yomiuri Shimbum archives that I've been skimming in my free (har har) time. I'm also plugging through some other illustrated and pictorial journals too... Because I'm interested in visual experiences, a full-page photo spread is gold. But it doesn't tell much about breeding practices on the ground. Anyway, I typically plug through journals page by page, because the pictures are typically NOT indexed unless they're captioned. With text-based archives, there are some good contemporary sources with searchable, electronic indices you can sort through if you have access to a university library.
Also, have you read the book by Aaron Skabelund, Empire of Dogs? The author/historian introduced himself and his book here on the forum. His book deals more thoroughly with the modern period up to and through the Pacific War, and then jumps pretty abruptly into the postwar period. Still, you may find some interesting tidbits there if you scour his footnotes and sources. He does write about the puppy mill boom in the 1960s, fed in part by British imports of foreign dogs. But that may be a little later than what you're interested in. It could be interesting to check out his sources, then trace back from there.
Has anyone heard of a Maloot, supposedly a black Siberian dog with blue eyes? (Probably not the M'loot strain of Malamutes) Liz Harrell, one of the early importers and breeders of Akitas in the States, told a friend that a correspondent in Japan--many years ago--mentioned this breed as a possible source of the long coated Akitas (besides the Karafuto dogs). I'm curious where the blue-eyed Akitas come from--recent mixes or perhaps older mutations or maybe from a breed blended into the Akita years ago?
I would personally find it amazing to see proof that Western breeds were used to RESTORE the NK. That's something that I've never even heard a whisper of. The fact that the native dogs were mixing with Western breeds pre-NIPPO is fact, and while NIPPO did its best to find and identify pockets of dogs all over the country that had not mixed and showed good type, chances are there were at least some mixes in there.
The fighting breeds on the other hand, were systematically bred to Western breeds, which puts the Akita and Tosa in a different boat.
As far as the Western breeds in Japan pre WW2, there were many. Many Western breeds were imported, everything from toy breeds to hunting dogs, and since this was before strict leash laws, they bred with the local dogs.
Concerning the Tosa in WW2, Takashi Hirose from Tosa centre in Kochi shares a little info in this footage.
Could it be possible, Tosa and Akita were mixed again to restore both breeds just after the WW? Note: mr Hirose talks in the clip about mr Nakajima, that's Gaifu Nakajima, founder of Fukyukai Association. In the Tosa rules the title Gaifu Taisho is named in his honor.
I saw an email once written buy a Suki Mayer ( ithink that's the last name). She bred JA, did some mixing, spent a fair amount of time in Japan.
In one of her emails, she mentions being told that the Hokkaido dog was used to help restore the JA. In another book there is reference to a "medium sized dog" being used.
I feel that there could be some truth because the early restoration dogs' pedigrees are incomplete.
After reading the dog man, I think a better explanation would be that certain early dogs had ?able back grounds these dogs might have been mixes.
I wonder...........if the Akita was really reduced in numbers in that time, what about the Hokkaido as mentioned by Jack? Wasn't the Akita the most popular breed in Japan and outnumbered the Hokkaido?
I have read in a older book I have published by Nippo in the 60's where it's written that the remaining Akita nikkei dogs were used to bring the JA back. I would think that there would be JA's with a good amount of blotched tongues (are there any?) if the Hokkaido was used to restore the breed. Just my opinion but even after ww2, I would think the Hokkaido was still some what isolated on their region but you never know.
Well keep in mind that selection plays a huge role. Even if the JA was bred to a breed with X gene, if that trait that gene caused was easily visible and undesirable (such as spotted tongues) those dogs carrying it get culled from the breeding program. Over time, it is extinguished by the greater population without that gene, unless someone intentionally tries to keep it around. Its only when its not readily visible (like long coat carriers) that it can lurk unseen and be difficult to select against.
Comments
EDIT: Since the red Nihon Ken breeds are not recessive reds, and Irish Setters are exclusively recessive reds, I find this highly unlikely.
Because people are asking this question all the time--usually with kind of vague "I heard this somewhere" as "source" material (which is fine as a point of inquiry into research), I think it's probably useful for both kimputai and others to list some sources, that way they can be evaluated as good sources or not (if anyone has them, of course!)
So what kind of sources have you already looked at, kimputai? Anyone have any good suggestions on where to look for legitimate sources of information on this?
(I don't really have any further specific help--I'm only in the "I've heard this" sort of stage, because it's not anything I've ever bothered to research. So my comment was more on thinking about how to go about researching this, rather than being able to point you in specific directions).
Also, have you read the book by Aaron Skabelund, Empire of Dogs? The author/historian introduced himself and his book here on the forum. His book deals more thoroughly with the modern period up to and through the Pacific War, and then jumps pretty abruptly into the postwar period. Still, you may find some interesting tidbits there if you scour his footnotes and sources. He does write about the puppy mill boom in the 1960s, fed in part by British imports of foreign dogs. But that may be a little later than what you're interested in. It could be interesting to check out his sources, then trace back from there.
The fighting breeds on the other hand, were systematically bred to Western breeds, which puts the Akita and Tosa in a different boat.
As far as the Western breeds in Japan pre WW2, there were many. Many Western breeds were imported, everything from toy breeds to hunting dogs, and since this was before strict leash laws, they bred with the local dogs.
Could it be possible, Tosa and Akita were mixed again to restore both breeds just after the WW?
Note: mr Hirose talks in the clip about mr Nakajima, that's Gaifu Nakajima, founder of Fukyukai Association. In the Tosa rules the title Gaifu Taisho is named in his honor.
This is how a Tosa looked just before WW2
In one of her emails, she mentions being told that the Hokkaido dog was used to help restore the JA. In another book there is reference to a "medium sized dog" being used.
I feel that there could be some truth because the early restoration dogs' pedigrees are incomplete.
After reading the dog man, I think a better explanation would be that certain early dogs had ?able back grounds these dogs might have been mixes.