Those Shibas look like they've got really thick fur. The Hokka is super cute.
Conker is very anti-social, but he only grabs the hands of people he knows. He often doesn't get close enough to a stranger for hand-grabbing or touching of any sort. But he's a very, very mouthy dog with me and when he plays. He'll walk up to me and grab my hand, then mouth it a bit, and usually wants to play after that. And if playing doesn't involve rough-housing and mouthing and tug with something, he's usually not interested. Also, whenever I pet him, he wants to grab my hand, but wants me to keep petting him, so it's usually a two-handed thing with him. Sometimes he'll just come up and mouth my hand then go away. (I think he's just a pushy brat...) Juneau (Border Collie x Labrador Retriever) likes to have a toy with her. If Conker runs by or snarks at her, she'll grab the toy and squish it a couple times. She'll also carry it around or gather a bunch of them up in one spot and lay over them. She looks really pitiful if you take them away and don't give her a replacement or play with her. Are those different behaviors?
Often I think it's good to step away a bit from the behaviorist diatribe/meme. Sometimes things are not always what they seem and more in depth review should be made on what is viewed in its context. It can be so easy to take a position on something from a quick glimpse and assume the worst. Yes, there are standard canons and measures but sometimes events and behaviors have grey areas too even if it meets the check list of issues described.
Mouthiness and other inherent dog behaviors we all love to see in tugging, fetching, and herding drive inherently build from somewhere. However, it isn't cut and dry in terms of "social" or "antisocial", there are varying degrees in the behavior interactions in my opinion. How we classify that can be so subjective. In this case from a mere photo I don't actually see behavior that can be classified as anti social per se, particularly at that age.
However, if one looks at that concept through a lens though, anti social behavior seems to always butt up against the social in some capacity in a sort of tension as dogs work through the environment, which is ultimately spurred on by "PRESSURE". So it is my personal belief, behavior "social" and "antisocial" work side by side in a sort of yin an yang of behavior/character development in general. How the dog adjusts (outside of the biological) will be determined by how we as owners and trainers set up for success. If we do nothing the dog will seek what makes the "pressure" move in to them spacially or away from them depending on the situation. Whatever direction that takes, the activities always revolve around context and elements of space and space adjustment, call it what you will.
That being said, actually a great many dogs will exhibit mouthiness across breeds given it is the basic tool they have to manipulate the world. Is that so wrong, probably not since it has be successful for canines. Overall physical contact adds a lot of "pressure" (neg and positive) in the interaction between dogs with humans, so how a dog responds most likely will vary due to multiple factors outside of mere character classification.
In regard to picking up pine cones on a walk or other objects etc, it may or may not be stemmed from antisocial underpinnings or reduced by calming behavior patterns. It could quite possibly be something altogether different in terms of exploration and self amusement or even something in between.
I have also come to believe the schutzhund typology and schutzhund breeds should not be over generalized to all breeds. There may be different variables for comparison and certainly different character components to each breed of dog requiring a case based assessment.
Just my take and achieving a balance with behaviorist theory and proceeding with training that does not drain or restrain too much. Snf
@ Losech- as far as mouthiness, it could be as you see it, a pushy brat LOL. As far as Juneau it could be she is teasing conker by chomping the toy or indicating "na na" mine. It's the context and all the small physical factors that are very slight that can be telling and it will vary from group to group as well.
I tend to agree with you, it's not always black/white in behavior.
It's funny to me how this conversation evolved. Originally I was simply pointing out how it was interesting to me that the most (perceived) social dog at the show was exhibiting a (documented) anti-social behavior.
Now, for the record, I wasn't drawing connection between schutzhund dog breeds and nihon ken... I was just pointing out why carrying objects and "toy training" was so important in schutzhund (no matter the dog breed). Carrying objects is even part of the bite-test as the dog is required to carry the sleeve off the field. Was not comparing dog breeds as much as just giving an example of how/why carrying objects is used in the schutzhund test.
Also, certainly puppies are mouthy. And I agree that a mouthy puppy is a mouthy puppy and not outwardly showing anti-social behavior. Also, dogs mature at different rates, so the age a dog moves out of puppy mouthiness depends on the individual.
However, I will stand by one of my points, leaving out the anti-social aspect (which seems to be what everyone is bothered by) - a dog that mouths your hand when you greet him/her is showing discomfort, over-excitement, and/or stress during the interaction. So, take note if a dog does that as they are telling you how they are feeling.
I've been reading and mulling this over, and don't really know enough about the documented facts that Brad is talking about to comment on that. (Though I'd love to see more info. on this--always good to learn more, and thanks Patrice for the link you included above).
I know my first reaction, not based on science or anything, was thinking about how I've had dogs that do it in what I would term an "affectionate" gesture--only with people they very much enjoy being around. However, that is also a case that could be overexcitement--here's my person! woohoo! So I was intrigued to think about this in a new way.
One way I've seen this behavior that was clearly a way of working of stress/overexcitement was in my GSD before and after he was treated for thyroid problems. I really thought I was going to have put him down, because he started biting people (not mouthing, biting) when he was really excited. Play would do it, visitors coming over, etc. It was not fear, but clearly overexcitement. Then we found he had virtually no thyroid function left, and we started treating him for hypothryoidism. One of the signs that it was working (beyond the physical signs) was that a friend came over one day with someone he didn't know well, and usually in those cases, he would get overaroused and bite a person. This time, he saw her, and was clearly super excited, but he looked around, found a toy to grab, and began biting it with a great deal of excitement. It was clear that the biting was a way to work with his overarousal, and that when he was not being treated for hypothryroidism, he was unable to find an appropriate outlet for his anxiety/excitement, but once he was treated, he was able to do so.
So in his case, I really saw an example of mouthiness (biting actually) as a response to stress.
Comments
Conker is very anti-social, but he only grabs the hands of people he knows. He often doesn't get close enough to a stranger for hand-grabbing or touching of any sort.
But he's a very, very mouthy dog with me and when he plays. He'll walk up to me and grab my hand, then mouth it a bit, and usually wants to play after that. And if playing doesn't involve rough-housing and mouthing and tug with something, he's usually not interested. Also, whenever I pet him, he wants to grab my hand, but wants me to keep petting him, so it's usually a two-handed thing with him. Sometimes he'll just come up and mouth my hand then go away. (I think he's just a pushy brat...)
Juneau (Border Collie x Labrador Retriever) likes to have a toy with her. If Conker runs by or snarks at her, she'll grab the toy and squish it a couple times. She'll also carry it around or gather a bunch of them up in one spot and lay over them. She looks really pitiful if you take them away and don't give her a replacement or play with her.
Are those different behaviors?
Often I think it's good to step away a bit from the behaviorist diatribe/meme. Sometimes things are not always what they seem and more in depth review should be made on what is viewed in its context. It can be so easy to take a position on something from a quick glimpse and assume the worst. Yes, there are standard canons and measures but sometimes events and behaviors have grey areas too even if it meets the check list of issues described.
Mouthiness and other inherent dog behaviors we all love to see in tugging, fetching, and herding drive inherently build from somewhere. However, it isn't cut and dry in terms of "social" or "antisocial", there are varying degrees in the behavior interactions in my opinion. How we classify that can be so subjective. In this case from a mere photo I don't actually see behavior that can be classified as anti social per se, particularly at that age.
However, if one looks at that concept through a lens though, anti social behavior seems to always butt up against the social in some capacity in a sort of tension as dogs work through the environment, which is ultimately spurred on by "PRESSURE". So it is my personal belief, behavior "social" and "antisocial" work side by side in a sort of yin an yang of behavior/character development in general. How the dog adjusts (outside of the biological) will be determined by how we as owners and trainers set up for success. If we do nothing the dog will seek what makes the "pressure" move in to them spacially or away from them depending on the situation. Whatever direction that takes, the activities always revolve around context and elements of space and space adjustment, call it what you will.
That being said, actually a great many dogs will exhibit mouthiness across breeds given it is the basic tool they have to manipulate the world. Is that so wrong, probably not since it has be successful for canines. Overall physical contact adds a lot of "pressure" (neg and positive) in the interaction between dogs with humans, so how a dog responds most likely will vary due to multiple factors outside of mere character classification.
In regard to picking up pine cones on a walk or other objects etc, it may or may not be stemmed from antisocial underpinnings or reduced by calming behavior patterns. It could quite possibly be something altogether different in terms of exploration and self amusement or even something in between.
I have also come to believe the schutzhund typology and schutzhund breeds should not be over generalized to all breeds. There may be different variables for comparison and certainly different character components to each breed of dog requiring a case based assessment.
Just my take and achieving a balance with behaviorist theory and proceeding with training that does not drain or restrain too much.
Snf
PS: Here is a bit of info the subject of "pressure"
http://www.annarbor.com/pets/dog-training-and-pressure-keep-your-eye-on-the-gauge/
Snf
@ Losech- as far as mouthiness, it could be as you see it, a pushy brat LOL. As far as Juneau it could be she is teasing conker by chomping the toy or indicating "na na" mine. It's the context and all the small physical factors that are very slight that can be telling and it will vary from group to group as well.
I tend to agree with you, it's not always black/white in behavior.
It's funny to me how this conversation evolved. Originally I was simply pointing out how it was interesting to me that the most (perceived) social dog at the show was exhibiting a (documented) anti-social behavior.
Now, for the record, I wasn't drawing connection between schutzhund dog breeds and nihon ken... I was just pointing out why carrying objects and "toy training" was so important in schutzhund (no matter the dog breed). Carrying objects is even part of the bite-test as the dog is required to carry the sleeve off the field. Was not comparing dog breeds as much as just giving an example of how/why carrying objects is used in the schutzhund test.
Also, certainly puppies are mouthy. And I agree that a mouthy puppy is a mouthy puppy and not outwardly showing anti-social behavior. Also, dogs mature at different rates, so the age a dog moves out of puppy mouthiness depends on the individual.
However, I will stand by one of my points, leaving out the anti-social aspect (which seems to be what everyone is bothered by) - a dog that mouths your hand when you greet him/her is showing discomfort, over-excitement, and/or stress during the interaction. So, take note if a dog does that as they are telling you how they are feeling.
----
I know my first reaction, not based on science or anything, was thinking about how I've had dogs that do it in what I would term an "affectionate" gesture--only with people they very much enjoy being around. However, that is also a case that could be overexcitement--here's my person! woohoo! So I was intrigued to think about this in a new way.
One way I've seen this behavior that was clearly a way of working of stress/overexcitement was in my GSD before and after he was treated for thyroid problems. I really thought I was going to have put him down, because he started biting people (not mouthing, biting) when he was really excited. Play would do it, visitors coming over, etc. It was not fear, but clearly overexcitement. Then we found he had virtually no thyroid function left, and we started treating him for hypothryoidism. One of the signs that it was working (beyond the physical signs) was that a friend came over one day with someone he didn't know well, and usually in those cases, he would get overaroused and bite a person. This time, he saw her, and was clearly super excited, but he looked around, found a toy to grab, and began biting it with a great deal of excitement. It was clear that the biting was a way to work with his overarousal, and that when he was not being treated for hypothryroidism, he was unable to find an appropriate outlet for his anxiety/excitement, but once he was treated, he was able to do so.
So in his case, I really saw an example of mouthiness (biting actually) as a response to stress.