Unlike the JA, the stripes on an akatora Kai are dark brown against red. Even in the most lightly marked brindled JA, the stripes have always been black to my eye.
I'll try to locate pics of the dogs in question. :-)
Okay, so we're discussing the hue of the eumelanin, not the amount of it? If it is truly a different hue, it should be visible on the kurotora as well as the akatora. Maybe its a trick of the eye with the black and red hairs, and the coat length (Akitas being longer) plays a role?
Since I've never seen a Kai akatora in person, I couldn't say if it's a trick of the sunlight. Honestly, I don't think that I could figure it out even in person.
What I can say is that these dogs don't have the typical yellow eyes of a "bb." So I don't think it's "b" for even the brown-nosed, brown striped Kai akatoras. To test a black-nosed Kai akatora seems kinda out there to me.
Well, I see what you mean. Of course its harder to tell from photos, because the pixels themselves are "averages" of areas of hue (especially if its been resized). Do you have any high res photos of close ups of the coat, showing many distinct hairs?
Interestingly enough, a quick google for liver brindle images didn't reveal very much. Now I am curious. BRB investigating.
Interesting. His gums and nose sure look liver. But his stripes look more black in that photo! Damn brindles for being different every time you take their picture.
Nonetheless, the eumelanin hue modification (whether it is liver "b" or something else) would affect the other types of brindle as well as the akatora in the same way. This picture seems to support that, as these dogs both look like liver to me: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30674599@N04/5156411803/
For what its worth, I was/am defining kurotora and akatora by the genotype not the phenotype; the ratio of eumelanin and pheomelanin pigment. A dog that is almost entirely eumelanin would be kurotora, while a dog with roughly equal or greater amounts of pheomelanin would be akatora and chutora is in between the two. However, if the kurotora or chutora was genetically liver, its phenotype would be overall a brown color that would probably make it branded as an akatora. I wouldn't consider this dilution gene to be a requirement to be a "true" akatora, however.
As a side note: liver does not (or should not) exist in the Akita gene pool for either breed. So that would explain why you haven't seen any with stripes like these kai, @ayk.
I'll have my friends Nichole and Linda look at Shakko vs. HoSu. The two are a lot more versed in coat colors than I because they work with fancy rats/hamsters/mice.
Hate to break this to you, but there's one more brindle in the Kai. Kurotora. A dog that is almost entirely eumelanin would be a kurotora. Halfway seems to be both chutora and akatora but with different (subjective) levels of hues. In the pic that you posted, the dog on the right would be considered a poor akatora because the stripes are almost completely lost.
Ah you're right, I had forgotten about that one. I fixed my previous posts.
And yes, that left one might be labeled akatora, but it looks to me like a liver kurotora. As you said, it lacks very many stripes; most of its body is dilute eumelanin.
I am attempting (perhaps failing) to have some consistent and less subjective labeling at least for the purpose of this discussion. I know its not necessarily the proper colors/labels the dogs would be given by the breed clubs.
• mostly eumelanin pigment: kurotora • half or more pheomelanin pigment: akatora • "somewhere in between" pigment ratio: chutora • black to brown dilution: liver (likely labeled akatora regardless of pigment ratio) • red to cream dilution: chinchilla (likely labeled shirotora regardless of pigment ratio)
I need to back up- cause i'm a neophyte so stripe density is factored differently than stripe pigment, right? So you could have a dog with little red (like a Kurotora) but where the 'black' is brown, and we'd call him akatora? We can also see the really light dogs with few stripes (fewer, but black = chutora, fewer but brown= akatora), because Eishin looks actually a rather dark dog (in density) but browner (in pigment) am I getting it?
"so stripe density is factored differently than stripe pigment, right?" - Yes.
Using the Japanese terms is a bit tricky because we don't know how to define the non-typical coat appearances. And even then, borderline dogs jump from one color ot the other. I remember Haru was called an akatora and then a chutora and now an akatora.
That's why @poeticdragon is trying to use genetic terms to at least understand the inheritance.
I shared the headshot pic of Mao on the canine genetics list and the coat color guru there thinks he's actually d/d. (!?!) If she wasn't the guru, I would think she was crazy. :-p She can't determine if Mao is also b/b based on the pics though.
I asked about tests and she said most if not all labs are able to determine d, and even though there are several b types, the labs will catch 3 of them and call it b.
While searching for testing labs, I noticed a note that in French bulldogs there is a 4th "b type" that provides brown coat color but black noses. There's no test for this yet.
I would honestly hold off on testing until that 4th "b type" is identified. (I'm cheap with my money. :-) That looks like a good candidate for what might be causing some akatoras.
Chrys - I think those examples you asked about would not be considered "correct" KKA Kai Ken coats. For example, it calls for a well defined brindle pattern... and in your brown kurotora example that wouldn't be the case. The other example you gave are diluted colors and wouldn't be considered "correct" either.
This is all very interesting. Thanks for the info guys! )
@ayk After a while of looking I was able to find some "liver brindle" photos on google. Not many good enough to share, unfortunately. They did look significantly different (although much shorter hair) from these Kai. There was no mistaking that it was chocolate and fawn stripes. Also since they were all bully breeds with butterfly noses, it was difficult to judge nose pigment at all - when it was included in the photo.
It is interesting that french bulldogs have this 4th type of b, since it was only bully breeds I was able to find photos of.
Here's the best photo of the bunch. (Also happens to be the first result, heh)
I think this dog has some dilution d as well as liver b, since the red is very honey colored and the brown is very light.
Does Kurotora (say, Kona- wait, bad example- you said KKA. ) have "well defined brindle pattern?" Maybe I am (erroneously) thinking of Kuros as like many of the UKC kai which are almost entirely black. Bo is a kurotora I've seen close up IRL- he is basically a black dog with some red hairs, but it didnt really make stripes per se. But again, he's UKC and I dont know what their standard says about stripe definition. Are the KKA Kuros much less black and more stripey than UKC kuros? I think all your (Brad's) darker KKA dogs have clear stripes...but what a great excuse to go look at Brad's Kai photos one more time!
A butterfly nose is when there is "splotchy" pigment. Its common on dogs with certain types of white flashing/genes. It should not be confused with a snow nose, which has areas of light and dark pigment but it is not spotty. Snow noses also lighten and darken with the season (and possibly, vitamin intake). Snow noses are what the AKC Akita standard incorrectly calls liver.
Here is a butterfly nose (it also happens to be liver):
Here is a snow nose:
Here is a liver nose:
It is possible for a dog to have any combination of all three. For example, my American Akita has a butterfly nose and a snow nose. Her nose has bright pink (no pigment) under the nostrils and dark black spots around the edges; these never change color. But the main part of her nose leather is made up of mottled purple and greyish pink splotches, which become more similar or more contrasted as the seasons change.
Chrys - Yes, all KKA Kai colors *should* have well defined stripes - tho, not all of them do... just like not all of them have proper tails or proper coat length.
Comments
Unlike the JA, the stripes on an akatora Kai are dark brown against red. Even in the most lightly marked brindled JA, the stripes have always been black to my eye.
I'll try to locate pics of the dogs in question. :-)
Here are some:
The famous Mao:
Since I've never seen a Kai akatora in person, I couldn't say if it's a trick of the sunlight. Honestly, I don't think that I could figure it out even in person.
What I can say is that these dogs don't have the typical yellow eyes of a "bb." So I don't think it's "b" for even the brown-nosed, brown striped Kai akatoras. To test a black-nosed Kai akatora seems kinda out there to me.
Interestingly enough, a quick google for liver brindle images didn't reveal very much. Now I am curious. BRB investigating.
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/6000/kka-tenrankai-2010-fall/p1
http://www.yamabushikennel.org/apps/pedigree/uploads/1324078976.jpg
Nonetheless, the eumelanin hue modification (whether it is liver "b" or something else) would affect the other types of brindle as well as the akatora in the same way. This picture seems to support that, as these dogs both look like liver to me: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30674599@N04/5156411803/
For what its worth, I was/am defining kurotora and akatora by the genotype not the phenotype; the ratio of eumelanin and pheomelanin pigment. A dog that is almost entirely eumelanin would be kurotora, while a dog with roughly equal or greater amounts of pheomelanin would be akatora and chutora is in between the two. However, if the kurotora or chutora was genetically liver, its phenotype would be overall a brown color that would probably make it branded as an akatora. I wouldn't consider this dilution gene to be a requirement to be a "true" akatora, however.
As a side note: liver does not (or should not) exist in the Akita gene pool for either breed. So that would explain why you haven't seen any with stripes like these kai, @ayk.
Hate to break this to you, but there's one more brindle in the Kai. Kurotora. A dog that is almost entirely eumelanin would be a kurotora. Halfway seems to be both chutora and akatora but with different (subjective) levels of hues. In the pic that you posted, the dog on the right would be considered a poor akatora because the stripes are almost completely lost.
And yes, that left one might be labeled akatora, but it looks to me like a liver kurotora. As you said, it lacks very many stripes; most of its body is dilute eumelanin.
I am attempting (perhaps failing) to have some consistent and less subjective labeling at least for the purpose of this discussion. I know its not necessarily the proper colors/labels the dogs would be given by the breed clubs.
• mostly eumelanin pigment: kurotora
• half or more pheomelanin pigment: akatora
• "somewhere in between" pigment ratio: chutora
• black to brown dilution: liver (likely labeled akatora regardless of pigment ratio)
• red to cream dilution: chinchilla (likely labeled shirotora regardless of pigment ratio)
There is "e" in the breed though, with varying shades from white to dark cream.
so stripe density is factored differently than stripe pigment, right?
So you could have a dog with little red (like a Kurotora) but where the 'black' is brown, and we'd call him akatora? We can also see the really light dogs with few stripes (fewer, but black = chutora, fewer but brown= akatora), because Eishin looks actually a rather dark dog (in density) but browner (in pigment)
am I getting it?
"so stripe density is factored differently than stripe pigment, right?" - Yes.
Using the Japanese terms is a bit tricky because we don't know how to define the non-typical coat appearances. And even then, borderline dogs jump from one color ot the other. I remember Haru was called an akatora and then a chutora and now an akatora.
That's why @poeticdragon is trying to use genetic terms to at least understand the inheritance.
I asked about tests and she said most if not all labs are able to determine d, and even though there are several b types, the labs will catch 3 of them and call it b.
While searching for testing labs, I noticed a note that in French bulldogs there is a 4th "b type" that provides brown coat color but black noses. There's no test for this yet.
I would honestly hold off on testing until that 4th "b type" is identified. (I'm cheap with my money. :-) That looks like a good candidate for what might be causing some akatoras.
This is all very interesting. Thanks for the info guys!
----
It is interesting that french bulldogs have this 4th type of b, since it was only bully breeds I was able to find photos of.
Here's the best photo of the bunch. (Also happens to be the first result, heh)
I think this dog has some dilution d as well as liver b, since the red is very honey colored and the brown is very light.
and
Does Kurotora (say, Kona- wait, bad example- you said KKA. ) have "well defined brindle pattern?" Maybe I am (erroneously) thinking of Kuros as like many of the UKC kai which are almost entirely black. Bo is a kurotora I've seen close up IRL- he is basically a black dog with some red hairs, but it didnt really make stripes per se. But again, he's UKC and I dont know what their standard says about stripe definition. Are the KKA Kuros much less black and more stripey than UKC kuros? I think all your (Brad's) darker KKA dogs have clear stripes...but what a great excuse to go look at Brad's Kai photos one more time!
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/30674599@N04/5157031632/
It is Boss, Nio's half brother. He has really visible red stripes.
Here is a butterfly nose (it also happens to be liver):
Here is a snow nose:
Here is a liver nose:
It is possible for a dog to have any combination of all three. For example, my American Akita has a butterfly nose and a snow nose. Her nose has bright pink (no pigment) under the nostrils and dark black spots around the edges; these never change color. But the main part of her nose leather is made up of mottled purple and greyish pink splotches, which become more similar or more contrasted as the seasons change.