maybe stupid, but.............

kimputai

I was wondering. There is a lot of talk on the internet that Japanese breeds aren't hardly used for their original purpose. Of course any person decides themselves what to do with his/her dog, but why don't people who still work ( I mean any kind of work) with a Japanese dog start a some kind of worldwide club to preserve this? ( that doesn't mean I want to start a Tosa dogfight competion) For instance, Gen is one of the few that still hunts. Maybe in a few years Gen is the only person that still hunts with the dogs. Maybe it sounds stupid to members of this board, and I don't want to start a big commotion, but aren't we drifting away to much from the breed? I mean, we call a few breeds a hunting breed.............but are they still?

jeffnkazuko

I kind of think in the opposite direction. Most NK in Japan from what I have seen even if not used for hunting are kept a bit on the wild side. I have had a Hokkaido breeder tell me that Hokkaido's are easy pets because you can just leave them outside, feed them table scraps and if they get really hungry will just kill a bird or whatever.
If people are worried about certain breeds such as the Shikoku eventually dying out isn't it better to breed the dogs to make better more biddable pets? I know it isn't a popular opinion especially in Japan but if NK only go to people who hunt I am sure none of the breeds would last very long.

WrylyBrindle

Our Forum goes thru this topic every so often, so its not stupid.

A lot fewer people hunt now than when these breeds developed, but that is true for all hunting breeds. (I wonder of all the jillions of retrievers/spaniels/poodles out there, what % work and what % of those working hunt? is it proportional to the number of medium-size NK and the % of those that work? and do their fanciers get morose about the lack of actual hunting golden retrievers?) There are lots of choices if you hunt- some people hunt with rifles and scopes, some hunt with bows or primitive firearms, just because they like to. I think with all the choice of dog breeds out there, hunting with NK is a choice for how you prefer to enjoy the hunt, as well as your feelings about tradition. (ie. I have shot with the blackpowder guys and they are a breed apart- they are so laid back, so process-oriented, storytelling guys, knowledgeable history guys. Its a niche thing, and hunting with NK seems also to be a niche thing. )

If we want to see more hunting NK, then we must preserve a hunting tradition among the people (also a shrinking pool, but I will note that women are a fast-growing segment! ) and for hunters to become aware of NK in the next place, and then to try/choose them over western dogs in the third place. This may be a tough sell in NA because sporting culture is highly steeped in tradition (my cousin hunts over GSP, his Dad hunts over GSPs...my brother hunts over english pointers...), traditional western training methods tend to favor 'hard' dogs.

BUT- I think what you said that is key is "any kind of work." I think this Forum membership believes in working our dogs, and encourages & enables each other. I think every time we celebrate our dogs' activities, it inspires others. I hope that by posting about the hiking adventures I have with my kai, or how she likes to catch frisbees, that others will think "I want to do that- and a kai can hike! I'll train for that with my puppy, too!" Our motto is "Kai CAN!" I love to see Lindsay's shibas at flyball and coursing, Brad's dogs working, Tyson and Taro hunting, and on and on. It doesnt have to be hunting boar to be relevant and preservable.

As a matter of attitude, I say lets not bemoan that all NK dont work, or see it (fewer working dogs) as a breeding problem, but set an example by being the people who get their dogs out there doing stuff, train them well, and not settling for an automatic "this breed can;t be let off leash/doesnt hunt as well as a X/is aloof, is stubborn, etc." and encourage others around us. Its a human culture thing- what do we DO that we can involve our dogs in? Most of us dont hunt anymore, be we can do other things that require an athletic dog, and I think that's okay!

CarabooA

I love that @Wryly Brindle!! Kai Can!! :oD

dlroberts

Amen Chrystal! I think you hit the nail on the head. It's less about the dogs than it is about the lack of interested owners. When hunting was a requirement to put food on the table, a dog was an invaluable tool. Now that hunting is a hobby or sport, a good dog is a luxury, not a requirement.

The strange thing to me is that I find my NK to be far more enjoyable around the house than my lab. In my experience, the NK are much better dual-purpose hunting/companion dogs than the western breeds, making them more appropriate for the casual hunter. So I don't really get it.

Saya

This site here mentions someone who hunts with their shiba inu I don't know if they still do or not.

http://yokohamaatsumi.the-ninja.jp/page005.html

When I see Saya run in the woods, brush and field I'm amazed with her speed and agility. I don't hunt with her though we just enjoy the country and walk in the trails and stuff she's gone after a rabbit in the brambles and she came back just fine with not a scratch from the brambles..

I like play with her I let her chase a squirrel pelt and thrown it a lot and she's chased it and retrieved it to me. It's all for fun though.

I'd be afraid how fast and agile she would've been if her spine wasn't injured.. She is fast for dog like her.

Nice post Chrystal.

Shigeru hunts with his NK and maybe he can elaborate on if Japanese hunters still mainly use Nihon ken to hunt or use other hunting breeds..

I don't know how many outside of Japan use their dogs to hunt..

There's been threads on this in past, but still nice to talk on.

lindsayt

Thumbs up Chrys. My motto of course is "Shiba's Can-Do," but I like your Kai motto also. That's awesome Juno can catch midair. Kai, I'm guessing, have pretty decent mouth eye coordination. And yes, I really enjoy the dual purpose qualities of my breeds.

souggy

Amen Chrystal! I think you hit the nail on the head. It's less about the dogs than it is about the lack of interested owners. When hunting was a requirement to put food on the table, a dog was an invaluable tool. Now that hunting is a hobby or sport, a good dog is a luxury, not a requirement.

Depends on the societal structure The idea of the common-men owning hunting dogs is relatively new. In Europe, it was not until 1800s, the non-nobility could hunt in forests, own hunting dogs or even firearms. The same is true of America, it was not until immigrants came here people began using dogs widely for hunting. Of course, there were poacher`s dogs such as lurchers, greyhounds and curly-coated retrievers, but we digress.

A lot fewer people hunt now than when these breeds developed, but that is true for all hunting breeds. (I wonder of all the jillions of retrievers/spaniels/poodles out there, what % work and what % of those working hunt? is it proportional to the number of medium-size NK and the % of those that work?

One caveat: historically, hunting dogs were only kept by the nobles and merchants. Nowadays, there is more dogs in existence than ever before.

There are lots of choices if you hunt- some people hunt with rifles and scopes, some hunt with bows or primitive firearms, just because they like to. I think with all the choice of dog breeds out there, hunting with NK is a choice for how you prefer to enjoy the hunt, as well as your feelings about tradition. (ie. I have shot with the blackpowder guys and they are a breed apart- they are so laid back, so process-oriented, storytelling guys, knowledgeable history guys. Its a niche thing, and hunting with NK seems also to be a niche thing. )

If we want to see more hunting NK, then we must preserve a hunting tradition among the people (also a shrinking pool, but I will note that women are a fast-growing segment! ) and for hunters to become aware of NK in the next place, and then to try/choose them over western dogs in the third place. This may be a tough sell in NA because sporting culture is highly steeped in tradition (my cousin hunts over GSP, his Dad hunts over GSPs...my brother hunts over english pointers...), traditional western training methods tend to favor 'hard' dogs.

Actually, there is a discussion in a Laika group among Nordics, Balts and Slavs whether or not Laikas should be sold to West Europeans because of their hunting regulations. In Netherlands and Belgium, only leashed dogs are allowed in the hunting forests. In Austria, a dog could be shot if found loose outside the hunting arenas; and so on. So what is the point of owning a breed which does not fit accordingly to a country`s customs and traditions?

The thing is urban societies seem to romanticized "primitive" breeds; but instead of getting a more suitable breed which conforms to their societal laws, like a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog or a Saarlooswolfhond instead, they struggle like hell with the dogs they covets. The guardians of hunting spitzes believe it amounts to animal cruelty not to allow a dog to explore its natural instinct, which is hard for owners to accomplish outside of East and North Europe. For this reason, they are very reluctant to export to non-hunting homes in North America as well since there is no guarantee their dogs will be able to express their personality without modifications such as de-barking. It is their belief, it is better for a breed to go extinct than it is to be useless.

StaticNfuzz

Great points!!

It seems the Nihons really have a lot to offer for limited land space. It is an efficient breed in more than one capacity. However those steeped in tradition of the hunt here in the U.S. have no idea what to make of these breeds. You will see this in the show ring as well as in training.

I'd say in America we have a lot of die hard hunters with a very distinct historical English/Colonial view point about the hunt and what a dog should actually be, that is a big cultural hurdle to overcome.

In the future you may see two different types of hunters/hunting styles and or training styles, possibly with some over lap. Interesting food for thought when training or considering methods for hunt tests etc with Nihons. It is a brave new world that we all are tapping into with the Japanese breeds. How we branch out with workable dogs will be interesting.

Snf

souggy

There is a niche for Nihon Kens: boars, raccoons and squirrels. Those three games do not seem to be affected by the Anglo-Saxon mindset.

MirkaM

So does that make me a bad dog owner if I don't work with my dogs?

shibamistress

@Mirka...I certainly don't think so.

There's great points here (esp. Chrys--Kai can!), but personally, I don't think it is doing a disservice to the breed if they aren't doing what they were originally bred for. To me, thinking about the breed's historic uses is more useful in terms of me thinking of what kind of activities they might enjoy, and then doing that with them.

My NK hunting breeds DO hunt. It's just I don't. But all my dogs hunt as much as they want in my rather large wooded yard. They have not lost their hunting instincts--it's just modified to how they live. Now they fulfill something of the role a terrier might: they kill the rodents we don't want around here, and they do a very good job of it. (Well, could be a little better--my husband found a rat's nest in the engine compartment of his GTO a few weeks ago). All three of them (two Shibas and one AA) can and do catch and kill critters around here, from mice and rats to rabbits to squirrels to birds and snakes. I love watching them in action, and to me, it's part of their "primitive" qualities that I love--they are like wild dogs sometimes out there, stalking and catching things. (The Shibas are WAY better hunters than the AA, by the way. It probably has a lot to do with size, agility, and speed. he's interested, and loves playing games that involve chasing and pouncing, but he's just not as fast as the Shibas.) I imagine my Kai will very much enjoy this too.

Anyway, I would say there are plenty of ways for a dog to "work" and to engage its predatory instincts, without necessarily hunting with humans. If people do want to hunt with their dogs, that's super cool, and I applaud them, but there are plenty of other ways to work with them too, and even though I don't right now do any true dog work, my dogs still are actively "hunting."

dlroberts

@shibamistress - "My NK hunting breeds DO hunt. It's just I don't. But all my dogs hunt as much as they want in my rather large wooded yard. They have not lost their hunting instincts..." I'm not making a value judgement, but I do want to point out that there's a difference between exercising the instinct to hunt and working as a hunting dog. Take the Kai Ken for example. The work they do as a hunting dog has traditionally been to track and bay large game. That instinct is different than the instinct to stalk --> pounce --> kill that they exercise while hunting. To me, the work a dog was bred for (herding, pulling, protection, etc.) is different than the basic instincts they have.

That being said, I don't think it is a disservice to a breed to use them for something other than what they were bred for either. BUT, to intentionally breed them away from a type and temperament suitable for what they were originally bred for at the expense of maintaining *the availability* of the original type and temperament is a bad thing.

shibamistress

@Dave....I know though I do think there was some blurring of intstinct vs. work in this thread, so I thought I'd blur it more!

I'm interested in reading people's responses, but I don't really care if dogs do their original work or not. To me, it does not take away from the breed to have them not hunting anymore.

souggy

However it does create an ethical issue when romantic puppy-buyers get a dog which does not fit in contet of their society. Is it right to own an Alaskan Husky or a Coonhound in a big city?`Maybe. Some of them do fine. However many of them are given up to shelters for a reason.

lindsayt

I know this has been discussed in the earlier days of the forum when many of us still had japanime stars in our eyes when talking about breed histories and how our dogs can still hunt, and sports are work too, etc. My Shiba girls are my performance dogs, which is hard work, and the breed has roots in hunting, but are now mostly (but not entirely) kept as companions and those who train for sporting work are few, although there are Shibas that do actively hunt still.

I'm guessing the other NK will either morph into that as far as purpose breeding (companion pet) or die out to be honest, since for most working breeds these days, that seems to be the inevitable outcome with modernization and a "manageable" companion seems to be most important to people.

I hope Kai will always hunt. As long as there is Kai working in the mountains, I feel they deserve to be called a hunting breed. I hope my own Kai can contribute to this

Saya

"Is it right to own an Alaskan Husky or a Coonhound in a big city?`Maybe. Some of them do fine. However many of them are given up to shelters for a reason."

I agree a lot of huskies and hounds end up in shelters due to not being in right homes which is sad.

Mom friend at work has a Siberian husky her husband wanted her despite his wife telling him he needs to research before getting her to be sure he's ready for the breed. She knew they're lots of work he coarse didn't listen got her anyways when she was causing issues he wanted her gone luckily his wife wanted to see if she could work things out so it worked out in the end and dog still has home and is happy.

Well for while they had a lot o issues and she asked my mom to ask me for help. I asked what was training and if she got any exercise. She said no so I told mom to tell her they need to exercise, walks, play ball, training and mental stimulation games. She did that and bad behavior went away pretty quick.

This family lives in country so they have pretty decent size yard coarse a big yard no replacement for a good walk, training and mental stimulation!

Sad so many dog owners do no research before getting a breed they think they want. Very impulsive people.