Oh, something I just now remembered. I was reading some studies on joint stuff, and they mentioned Green Lipped Mussel as being better than Gucosamine/Chondroitin/MSM. I think it's a powder, and you can get it in specialty-food stores and some places online. Several of them said this (I'm skeptical of only one study, but there are a few who tested it and all had the same results) so it might be something to look into. I don't know how well it would help the spine but it seems to work good in the other joints.
We were thinking of the glucosamine, too, but like Brad's suggestion, and the green lipped mussel....I feel like I read about that somewhere but can't think of where now...I do feel like there must be some supplements that can help ease some the symptoms, and moderate exercise will help too.
Massage is good for people with this problem, so probably will help him too. It helps with easing the muscle tension that can come along with this. I've been thinking that canine massage was something I wanted to work on, so now I have a big motivator right here in our house. And yes, accupuncture is supposed to be good with people to relieve pain, so I bet it would help with him too. Right now he doesn't seem to be in pain, but eventually he will be....
Thanks for your thoughts and well wishes, everyone.
I hope message and supplements helps. Saya loves being messaged.
I haven't tried green lipped mussel powder yet been meaning to.
I plan to try the velvet antler stuff too been meaning to try that for long time. I'm hoping my local health food store has the green lipped mussel stuff.
I just get depressed every time I look at this thread. Poor Oskar. It's really not fair that this has happened to such a sweet boy. I'm so sorry to hear this.
So, SO sorry bad news. But at least you know what is wrong now and can help him in the best way he needs.
We've actually used the Lippid supplement! It did work very visibly for 5 years for my heeler-cross dog that I had long ago. He had a broken pelvis when I found him @ 4-5 months old, so he eventually developed severe arthritis in his right hip joint. I started him on it when he was 5 years old (started showing stiffness when rising) and he took it until he was 10. He had to have pain meds at the end but the brand I had him on (and just started Mirra on) was/is GF 600 by vetri-science. The dogs think it's really yummy so it's easy to give. Causes some pretty stinky toots at first but levels out. And Mirra does seem to be showing some relief after being on it for 2+ months now....
Hope you find some things to help your dear Oskar!!! So sorry!
Lisa I am so sorry. I know how it feels to look at your puppy and know that he won't live his full life. I still look at Koda sometimes and know that his life with my was shortened.
Ok here we go treatments and supplements. I did T-Touch with Mei to calm her anxieties when she came here and it totally worked to relax her. Koda got massages after surgery to loosen his quads. It definitely helped. Amazing was the acupuncture though!! The day after surgery I physically watched his whole body relax during acupuncture. It amazes me to this day.
Water therapy was also great. It allowed him to exercise and still be relaxed. This is pricey though. We also did the laser treatments.
As far as supplements I want to try the antler. Jen told me about it when I saw her and it looked easy to travel with. Glucosamine chondroitin with msm liquid is what I give at home but it has to stay refrigerated. Koda also gets fish oil daily. He stinks about pills now.
There are also herbal remedies for inflaation like liquid yucca and passionflower will calm him down on bad days.
There's also stem cell treatments for arthritis. I haven't tried it yet with Koda but probably will have to when he gets older. It surprisingly enough has gotten great reviews.
Any questions you have please ask. I may not know the answer but Koda has a team of vets and holistic vets that don't mind answering my questions when I ask them.
You are such a diligent, careful pet owner, it stinks that this diagnosis has to happen to any of your dogs! Not that it's better happening to any other dog... but yeah, it seems like Oskar was a pup just recently, and now this already?? I'm sorry... on the other hand, it's so heartening to see that you have such good support on this forum. I have no good advice for you, but if I see anything, I'll be sure to pass it along.
Do you have access to a swimming pool? I would discuss a swimming therapy program with your vet. You will need to rinse Oskar off to get the chlorine out of his fur, but swimming would be a good idea. Strengthening the muscles to support the spine is a worthwhile strategy. Acupuncture/pressure might be a good option. Find a vet who is familiar with acupuncture/pressure. Maybe you will want to learn acupressure. (There are charts that show canine pressure points/chi paths.) On a practical level, maybe Oskar will need to use a ramp to get around in some areas. Also, a firm bed (Kuranda?) might help. Basically, the treatments used for people with disk issues could probably be modified and used for a dog.
Thanks for your thoughts everyone. We're going to get the elk velvet antler stuff for him, for one thing, and I will probably make an appt. with the holistic vet too. I'll probably have more questions for people who are familiar with different alternative therapies, too, just not quite able to sort through it yet.
I'm kind of shell shocked, honestly, and haven't had enough time to do more than be in denial. I know this isn't an immediate death sentence--I now know several people who have spondylosis--but it's also still quite a shock, and since he's already showing problems, my vet does believe he probably will have a shorter life span. I need to get out of that, and start focusing on what we can do, but it's still kind of hard.
The swimming thing would be great, but it's a bit difficult in NM! there is a fancy kennel that has a canine therapy pool, but it's pricey....we will try it occasionally, but probably can't do it regularly.
Well, when I went to (human) massage school, I knew I also wanted to do canine massage. I guess this will be a big motivator to learn more about it, as I know it is often a help for pain and muscle tenseness in people with this disease, so I know it will be good for dogs too.
It is genetic, though how it is passed down is not entirely clear yet. The genetic marker for it is known in humans (rather recently I believe), but I don't know that it is known in dogs.
I did tell the breeder. She was recently looking for a home for Oskar's dam anyway, spayed, as a pet, so it's not like she'll be bred again, but I did want the breeder to know.
Wow, that's terrible news. I'm sorry. It's definitely hard to learn that such a young dog is going to have a short life span, but hopefully that will just make the time you have left with him that much more precious.
We did order some velvet antler stuff....hope it will help!
But I feel pretty bad, because lately Oskar has been kind of mouthy (I mentioned this in the mouthing thread). He's super softmouthed, so it never hurt, but lately he'd been whipping his head around and putting his mouth on us if we grabbed his collar. Now I know why: it hurt him. C1-3 are in particularly bad shape on him, so any pressure on his collar would hurt. And he was trying to tell us, but as always, my big boy is gentle, so even when he's "nipping" to indicate pain, he did it softly. It just makes me cry thinking about it.
On a practical note, though, I wonder if we should find a harness we can leave on him more of the time. My vet said we need to walk him with a harness (which we already do), but in our house, we do need to have a way to grab him sometimes to pull him away from the other dogs, or from door, etc. But the collar is not a good idea. Anyone have ideas for a harness he could wear comfortably a lot of the time? Or some other ideas?
I love those comfort flex harnesses....and have been wanting an excuse to get one for him. I'll have to look at sizing.
I don't know if this is the best solution--does anyone leave a harness on most of the time? Maybe I can just try redirecting him. The reason we need something is he's not always willing to come in from outside and sometimes I've had to pull him away from the gate (like when the UPS man comes) or also in the house, to pull him away from Bel if there are food or toy squabbles or if he's trying to "fence fight" with Toby through the window. Ideally, I guess we'd work to just be able to call him away from the other dogs situations with a "leave it" and we mostly can now too, but until that's completely down, I'd feel better having something to use to grab him if I needed to.
Nola has a harness on the majority of the time now (when she is out of her crate). However, she wears a Ruffwear Webmaster harness. The harness is to help me pick her up when her back legs fail her and to help her get around if she is having a particularly rough day. That and because of the fur loss around her neck (and her weight loss), her collar is really loose around her neck, so if I needed to grab her for what ever reason, she could very easily slip her collar (even if it is a limited slip).
I also keep it on just in case she snaps at Bella and I need to separate them quickly. Knock on wood, this has not happened yet, and the only living thing she has snapped at yet has been me.
Thanks Casey. I do have plans to get a ruffwear harness for Oskar....because I thought about the mobility issues too, and know that it will be helpful to have a way to get him up in the same situation. (damn, that was pretty hard to type out....) Actually, now that I think of it, it's probably best just to get one for him soon.
And additional note about his diagnosis, something that came up from someone via an Akita list....I was so upset by the xrays, and I think our vet was too, that we didn't even talk about the "whys" for Oskar's ataxia. I just assumed it was neurological, I guess, and probably the vet thought he told me. But...as someone pointed out on the other list, spondylosis doesn't actually mean there IS neurological problems, unless a growth is pressing on the spinal cord. It occurs to me that the vet probably thought he told me that when he said he wasn't optimistic about Oskar having a full life span, and I was too upset to ask. He also said he was not optimistic about surgical interventions given how many vertebrae were already effected.
Well, we'll be back in very soon, so I can ask for more information. But....I suspect the ataxia is a sign of something pressing on the spinal cord already. I also did try the test where you see if they notice that they are walking/standing on the knuckles and Oskar didn't notice it. He would now, I think, but when the ataxia was bad he did not. It's obviously already more than just the problems with his spine.
I hate this.
But thank you, Casey for reminding of the ruffwear harness. It makes sense to get one sooner, rather than waiting til we really need it, I think.
My foster had a harness on all the time and so do the Akitas owned by Steve and Judy in the AKIHO club. I don't think there is anything "special" about any of these harnesses. My cats always wear "normal" cat harnesses, too. (I don't like the quick-release collars because it defeats the purpose of putting my contact info on the cat if its lost, but at the same time I don't want them to choke. The harness is a good alternative.)
Yeah, the Ruffwear harness has been a lifesaver for us. Even though Nola is now super light (she has lost more than 10 pounds in the past 6 months, some of which she needed to lose), it is still hard for me to stoop down to scoop her up when she falls. So having the handle and the support of the harness is really nice.
Granted, Oskar is much bigger than Nola, so a different solution might be necessary for helping him when he has bad ataxia in the back end.
Either way, I am so sorry that you guys are having to deal with this. Oskar seems like such a sweet dog. And he is SO young.
I used the ruffwear harness to carry Koda's back legs after surgery. It made life a lot easier. I was in correspondence with a woman at the time who was using one for her Mastiff. She said it worked well on her as well. It's definitely a good option. I also purchased a sling but the harness was easier for one person to handle. The sling worked really well the first day when he was the worst with the stump but it took two of us. I did get his back legs really off the ground with it though.
Just putting this out if you sign up for the superflex newsletter they give you "Velvet Antler: A Gift from Nature." book I'm not sure what it's about, but I didn't know signing up for their newsletter does it. Cool I hope it has some nice info on the stuff.
Some of you may have seen this on fb...it's our update:
Talked to the vet more and it's 9 vertebrae. Since our vet is out of town a lot, I asked what to look for, and what would constitute an emergency in this case--when his stiffness is normal and when he might need to see a vet right away. What could happen is a herniated disc--he'd be in a lot of pain then and wouldn't be able to get up. Also we have to watch for neurological problems from pressure on the spinal cord. The vet said it's possible one of the problem vertebrae in the neck is already pinching the spinal cord occasionally, but right now, we think he's mostly ok.
I believe there may be some surgical options, but we havent' talked about them in detail yet, as given how many problem vertebrae there are, they are probably cost prohibitive for us anyway.
The worst part? The vet said, well, I don't expect him to have a full life span, which I knew, but I said, well what do you think? and he said "keeping him comfortable, without neurological damage or paralysis or excess pain? I hope you can get him to 5. Maybe a bit longer."
Nothing is certain of course, but it's not good news. Still, as Chrystal said on FB, now that we know, we can make his life as good as possible and not put things off. And that's true. The gift is having him at all. He's such a sweet boy.
Gosh I hope your vet is wrong. Sometimes pets will surprise us with how long they last and hopefully Oskar can go on happily for longer than it takes to reach five.
Awww. I missed this on FB (I have been crazy busy this week and it is only Tuesday!).
I am so sorry to hear this. But it is a blessing to have him in your life. I know exactly how you feel dealing with Nola. Just make the time that you have with him as wonderful and as easy on him as possible (which, I know you will do that and more).
*hugs!* If you ever need to talk about it, you know how to reach me.
Comments
Massage is good for people with this problem, so probably will help him too. It helps with easing the muscle tension that can come along with this. I've been thinking that canine massage was something I wanted to work on, so now I have a big motivator right here in our house. And yes, accupuncture is supposed to be good with people to relieve pain, so I bet it would help with him too. Right now he doesn't seem to be in pain, but eventually he will be....
Thanks for your thoughts and well wishes, everyone.
I hope message and supplements helps. Saya loves being messaged.
I haven't tried green lipped mussel powder yet been meaning to.
I plan to try the velvet antler stuff too been meaning to try that for long time. I'm hoping my local health food store has the green lipped mussel stuff.
We've actually used the Lippid supplement! It did work very visibly for 5 years for my heeler-cross dog that I had long ago. He had a broken pelvis when I found him @ 4-5 months old, so he eventually developed severe arthritis in his right hip joint. I started him on it when he was 5 years old (started showing stiffness when rising) and he took it until he was 10. He had to have pain meds at the end but the brand I had him on (and just started Mirra on) was/is GF 600 by vetri-science. The dogs think it's really yummy so it's easy to give. Causes some pretty stinky toots at first but levels out. And Mirra does seem to be showing some relief after being on it for 2+ months now....
Hope you find some things to help your dear Oskar!!! So sorry!
Ok here we go treatments and supplements. I did T-Touch with Mei to calm her anxieties when she came here and it totally worked to relax her. Koda got massages after surgery to loosen his quads. It definitely helped. Amazing was the acupuncture though!! The day after surgery I physically watched his whole body relax during acupuncture. It amazes me to this day.
Water therapy was also great. It allowed him to exercise and still be relaxed. This is pricey though. We also did the laser treatments.
As far as supplements I want to try the antler. Jen told me about it when I saw her and it looked easy to travel with. Glucosamine chondroitin with msm liquid is what I give at home but it has to stay refrigerated. Koda also gets fish oil daily. He stinks about pills now.
There are also herbal remedies for inflaation like liquid yucca and passionflower will calm him down on bad days.
There's also stem cell treatments for arthritis. I haven't tried it yet with Koda but probably will have to when he gets older. It surprisingly enough has gotten great reviews.
Any questions you have please ask. I may not know the answer but Koda has a team of vets and holistic vets that don't mind answering my questions when I ask them.
I'm kind of shell shocked, honestly, and haven't had enough time to do more than be in denial. I know this isn't an immediate death sentence--I now know several people who have spondylosis--but it's also still quite a shock, and since he's already showing problems, my vet does believe he probably will have a shorter life span.
The swimming thing would be great, but it's a bit difficult in NM! there is a fancy kennel that has a canine therapy pool, but it's pricey....we will try it occasionally, but probably can't do it regularly.
Well, when I went to (human) massage school, I knew I also wanted to do canine massage. I guess this will be a big motivator to learn more about it, as I know it is often a help for pain and muscle tenseness in people with this disease, so I know it will be good for dogs too.
This just seems so sudden.
Is this a genetic thing? Does the breeder need to know just in case or?
I did tell the breeder. She was recently looking for a home for Oskar's dam anyway, spayed, as a pet, so it's not like she'll be bred again, but I did want the breeder to know.
But I feel pretty bad, because lately Oskar has been kind of mouthy (I mentioned this in the mouthing thread). He's super softmouthed, so it never hurt, but lately he'd been whipping his head around and putting his mouth on us if we grabbed his collar. Now I know why: it hurt him. C1-3 are in particularly bad shape on him, so any pressure on his collar would hurt. And he was trying to tell us, but as always, my big boy is gentle, so even when he's "nipping" to indicate pain, he did it softly. It just makes me cry thinking about it.
On a practical note, though, I wonder if we should find a harness we can leave on him more of the time. My vet said we need to walk him with a harness (which we already do), but in our house, we do need to have a way to grab him sometimes to pull him away from the other dogs, or from door, etc. But the collar is not a good idea. Anyone have ideas for a harness he could wear comfortably a lot of the time? Or some other ideas?
If not, maybe a Dean & Tyler harness that is similarly styled? But they are heavier and may cause him to retain some heat.
I don't know if this is the best solution--does anyone leave a harness on most of the time? Maybe I can just try redirecting him. The reason we need something is he's not always willing to come in from outside and sometimes I've had to pull him away from the gate (like when the UPS man comes) or also in the house, to pull him away from Bel if there are food or toy squabbles or if he's trying to "fence fight" with Toby through the window. Ideally, I guess we'd work to just be able to call him away from the other dogs situations with a "leave it" and we mostly can now too, but until that's completely down, I'd feel better having something to use to grab him if I needed to.
I also keep it on just in case she snaps at Bella and I need to separate them quickly. Knock on wood, this has not happened yet, and the only living thing she has snapped at yet has been me.
And additional note about his diagnosis, something that came up from someone via an Akita list....I was so upset by the xrays, and I think our vet was too, that we didn't even talk about the "whys" for Oskar's ataxia. I just assumed it was neurological, I guess, and probably the vet thought he told me. But...as someone pointed out on the other list, spondylosis doesn't actually mean there IS neurological problems, unless a growth is pressing on the spinal cord. It occurs to me that the vet probably thought he told me that when he said he wasn't optimistic about Oskar having a full life span, and I was too upset to ask. He also said he was not optimistic about surgical interventions given how many vertebrae were already effected.
Well, we'll be back in very soon, so I can ask for more information. But....I suspect the ataxia is a sign of something pressing on the spinal cord already. I also did try the test where you see if they notice that they are walking/standing on the knuckles and Oskar didn't notice it.
I hate this.
But thank you, Casey for reminding of the ruffwear harness. It makes sense to get one sooner, rather than waiting til we really need it, I think.
Granted, Oskar is much bigger than Nola, so a different solution might be necessary for helping him when he has bad ataxia in the back end.
Either way, I am so sorry that you guys are having to deal with this. Oskar seems like such a sweet dog. And he is SO young.
Talked to the vet more and it's 9 vertebrae. Since our vet is out of town a lot, I asked what to look for, and what would constitute an emergency in this case--when his stiffness is normal and when he might need to see a vet right away. What could happen is a herniated disc--he'd be in a lot of pain then and wouldn't be able to get up. Also we have to watch for neurological problems from pressure on the spinal cord. The vet said it's possible one of the problem vertebrae in the neck is already pinching the spinal cord occasionally, but right now, we think he's mostly ok.
I believe there may be some surgical options, but we havent' talked about them in detail yet, as given how many problem vertebrae there are, they are probably cost prohibitive for us anyway.
The worst part? The vet said, well, I don't expect him to have a full life span, which I knew, but I said, well what do you think? and he said "keeping him comfortable, without neurological damage or paralysis or excess pain? I hope you can get him to 5. Maybe a bit longer."
Nothing is certain of course, but it's not good news. Still, as Chrystal said on FB, now that we know, we can make his life as good as possible and not put things off. And that's true. The gift is having him at all. He's such a sweet boy.
I am so sorry to hear this. But it is a blessing to have him in your life. I know exactly how you feel dealing with Nola. Just make the time that you have with him as wonderful and as easy on him as possible (which, I know you will do that and more).
*hugs!* If you ever need to talk about it, you know how to reach me.