thanks everyone--we think he's awfully handsome, and even his naughtiness is pretty fun. (because it's so different than what we're used to, and relatively harmless--at least he's not fighting like the Shibas!)
Leo H-A-T-E-S his ruffwear harness, but we quite like it! *lol* He runs when he sees me pick it up (and not towards me in joy!). I like it because it would be difficult for him to get out of it, and because I've had to, on occassion, pick him up with it, so it's useful for that, or simply for grabbing him. He even wore it when he tried lure coursing, and when he decided to jump over the fences from the course and keep running, he was pretty easy to catch (he loved the lure coursing otherwise, and I don't think he was intending to go far, but you know, loose Kai=scary situation).
I guess I didn't put that in our updates. Leo has been busy with agility. We're in a semi-hiatus now, as there's too much snow and our trainer has an outside course, but we've been working on that, and he loves it. The trainer thinks he has some potential to actually compete too, though we're mostly doing it to have something fun to work on. But she likes that he learns super fast, that he clearly really really likes it (he has a lot of drive and gets super excited when he sees the equipment), and that he can adjust his speed to what I'm doing. We've got a long ways to go (he does get overwhelmed sometimes and just sits with his back to everything which means it's time for a break for him!), but it's really fun.
And he's done lure coursing once and thought it was the best thing ever! We'll probably have some more fun with that in the spring!
Happy birthday to Leo and to Goro and all the Ayu x Akashi pups born today!
Our little whirlwind of naughty is one! And tomorrow he begins an "advanced" obedience class (which is what all classes after puppy class are called at the Animal Humane society, so I'm not expect serious advanced). Leo probably won't like it: he's great at agility, but he has little impulse control and staying still is not a favorite thing (stay? what's that?). But it will be good for him!
Happy Birthday, handsome red boy! We love all the stories about you- excpet that rattlesnake incident- you scared us with that one! Keep safe and stay kinda naughty. Love ya Leo!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY LEO!!! With no offense to the other kai, i think Leo has my favorite coloring. It always reminds me of marbled banana bread. If i ever get a kai, i would hope for this coat color.
Leo went to his dog class tonight. Advanced obedience. He did not do well, and I'm glad the trainer both knows him and has a sense of humor.
He does shut down sometimes in big groups, and though it wasn't a big group--only 4 other dogs--he just refused to do anything but stare at the door, because he wanted to leave. He ignored me and was frozen in the room. They thought he was doing well on his stays, but he wasn't--he was just frozen.
then there was off leash play time. Except Leo must have decided it was off leash pee time, because he peed on everything. I lost count of how many times he peed. Toys, wall, another dog, the trainer. :-O Yep, on the trainer. And then he tried to pee on her assistant, but she saw him and moved.
So he has to wear a bellyband or something next time. And the trainer joked, well, then he'll really be still in class, because she already knows how he freezes when he's wearing something.
I'm going to work on that next time (and he has to wear something too) but the thing is, he won't empty his bladder. He always holds some in. I did take him out for a break and he didn't pee, and I had taken him for a walk before, but.....
I'd been kind of self-congratulatory on how he wasn't marking more than my speutered dogs, but I guess I just hadn't seen him in a place where he really wanted to mark, I guess, where there was a lot of other dog smells to get him going. Oh Leo.
(And his not working was very much his "I'm overwhelmed so I'm not going to do anything" issue. I tried to give him a break outside, but even outside, with all the traffic and noise, was too overstimulating. I might have to give him a break in the car next time if he gets overwhelmed.)
I guess this will be really good for him though. He needs to be in a group class again, and learn how to handle that. His agility class was one on one and in the mountains, so it was quiet and not distracting at all.
We're having some problems with Leo and marking, but also with stress in class, and thought I'd see if anyone had suggestions. He's had a puppy class, and several agility classes, and gone to a variety of group play events (which he never much enjoys). He's a star in agility--focused, learns super quick, has incredible drive. He did best, though, in one on one lessons at a place in the mountains. No other dogs training (though plenty there), and few distractions.
Now we're back at Animal Humane where he took his puppy class, for an advanced obedience. He already knows everything we're doing, except you wouldn't be able to tell in class. He's also started marking. We've gone to two classes and each time, he marked so many times indoors I lost track, and this last time he marked on several different people (he was wearing a belly band, though so no pee got on people, thankfully). He's never done anything like this before. And then he was over threshhold--partly because even though he has been here many times, it's new people, new dogs, and he gets overwhelmed easily, but also the belly band (which he obviously has to wear, though last night was the first time he wore it, and he does get stressed by having to wear things). So then he would do nothing. Not even look at me. Or sit. He just faced the door and was totally unresponsive.
I tried giving him time outs, which worked well when he was first overwhelmed at his agility class, but this place is on a busy street and he finds even that too overwhelming. The trainer said if he's not willing to work, that's fine, just let him sit there--it as clear he wasn't able to learn anything right then. I'm just kind of surprised he finds this so stressful. He's been here before. He knows and likes the trainer. There are only four other dogs, and though they are young and rambunctious, they're great dogs and none have approached him rudely.
The thing is, right now he seems to think he doesn't have to do any work at all if there are dogs present, or that work only =agility (with it's obvious rewards) so thats the only time he'll do anything. He needs to be more reliable in other circumstances, too, but right now this class is clearly too much for him. It did take a couple of weeks for him to stop being overwhelmed in other classes (one here), so maybe he'll rally here too, but right now, we just go, he marks, ignores the other dogs and people, and then stares at the wall.
He does need to be able to function in busier circumstances too. I mean, obviously, his skill at agility will be useless if he shuts down when there is a lot of activity (not that he has so far, but he's only been in class with a few other dogs), but more to the point, I don't want to see him this stressed. But how else to deal with him? I'm going to go next week,not expecting much, and see if he gets better. At the very end of class, he did approach another dog in an interested manner, and he also was finally willing to do a heeling exercise, which he did well at (he wouldn't do anything that involved sitting still, though).
Is this too much stress for him? But then how do I get him used to being in group situations? Thoughts?
And also, I asked this on FB, but I do kind of think I should interrupt his attempts at marking with a verbal correction, but she thinks I shouldn't and just let the wet belly band be a deterrent to him. What do other people think?
eta: we are going to neuter him, btw, but probably not before the class is over, so the marking is an issue for now, and one I certainly hope improves with neutering, though there are no guarantees there, I know.
@shibamistress sorry I don't have anything to add to this to help you really, but I am interested in your issue because of Hana. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that there isn't much I can do actively other than to not force her to go somewhere she doesn't want to, keep walks short (if we can even walk) and to try to keep it as positive as possible when we do. She's teaching me the definition of patience because before her, I obviously did not know what it meant.
Stupid question: I'm assuming you've already tried high value treats? Maybe hand feed him some of his dinner there?
If the class environment is too much stress, you may want to take a step back and take him to something with less stimuli instead. Like possibly taking him for some one on one at that facility, or to classes where there is just one other dog there. You may also want to try taking him to places where there are other dogs but you two don't have to be close to them. For example, see if there is a dog park with a field or other open area near it and just hang out with him far enough away so he can comfortably be exposed to the sights, scents, and sounds of other dogs. Build up his threshold and exposure little by little, and eventually he should be able to handle group classes again.
When it comes to peeing, have you tried to distract him before he lifts? Instead of correcting him after the fact, watch him and when he starts giving signs that he is going to mark, try to divert his attention to something else. Sounds like his marking is an attempt to express his stress or trying to bring comfort to a bad situation. Neutering may reduce it but it may not eliminate it totally as there is a psychological part to marking.
I have two ideas and I don't know if it will work. It seems his threshold is new people/dogs and more of them so why not see if you can rope the trainer into a few one on one or one on two sessions where she would work with her dog while you work with leo or she works with you and one other person so leo only has to worry about one other thing, then gradually build up. The other option and I'm not sure about the details of how bella and oskar are out of the house and in class environments but take one as moral support for him and work them together. Start at home with group commands so they get used to it then take them both to class so he gets the support of the other dog doing what needs to be done AND is learning in a new environment.
Perhaps part of the additional stress was the addition of the belly band? I have never been around a male dog that marked (excessively) before, so I am not quite sure how it works or how comfortable it is.
I wonder if it might be more effective if you go ahead and neuter him and then take the class once he has healed. I am not sure if your trainer would work with you on that (I know some of them can be sticklers for no rescheduling). But that is a thought.
Since there are so many variables, I am not really sure where you would want to start. If it were me in that situation, I would neuter first (since he is now over a year old) and deal with the marking issue, then work up to dealing with busy training situations.
After reading Calia's post, particularly the second paragraph, I'm wondering if Leo is trying to 'train' Lisa to remove him from the room.
If he already knows that peeing inside means being moved outside, I wonder if he's trying to give a dramatic signal about wanting to move out of the room?
I knew people would think of some things I haven't thought of! yay! What I'd been trying to do with the marking was make the verbal correction an interrupter--so I'd say "ah ah ah" when I saw him start. But I think the trainer didn't like it because she's pretty far on the all positive side (I mean so am I, but I do some verbal corrections). But what if I interrupt with something else? Like a squeaky toy or something? That might also get him to focus on me, which is what I want. He's not super toy driven, but he is interested enough to get his attention. Or I may just have to tell her that I'm using the sound as an interrupter, and I feel I need to do that.
I could up the value of treats. Sometimes he was too far over threshhold to take them, but he was hungry, and did tend to more for cheese than the other treats he doesn't like as much. So by the end of class, he was taking treats (cheese) again.
The idea of bringing another dog is good, but my others are too problematic to handle. Bel is TERRIFIED of strangers and strange places. Oskar is dog aggressive and huge, so that would be nightmarish in that small space (we'd be asked to leave. They already had to ask one reactive dog to leave). Toby doesn't like other dogs at all.
I think I'll try again next week, and be prepared to give him time out in the car. He doesn't like the car that much either, but he is used to having time outs in the car at his agility class, so it might be familiar. Then if he still is unable to handle class, we'll have to rethink it. He may just need a slower intro, it's true. (though I bet if I put him in the group agility class, he'd be fine, as the agility stuff is such a powerful reward for him he's usually willing to work through his discomfort).
And as I was writing, I see some other responses, and yes, I wonder if it's just a bit much now. He may hope that marking will get him taken out of class, though I don't take him out right after he does it (I have to clean it up first!) but still, I do think it is something about discomfort. But I do think it is a sign of discomfort (as well as just run of the mill marking!)
Gotta run, but thanks, and more thoughts are, of course, very welcome!
I don't see how the discomfort of a wet belly band is more positive than a verbal correction, both give discomfort but one is short while the other is long term. It makes me think of how banding is considered a more humane way to neuter lambs/kids, that gives long term discomfort, instead of just cutting them out. Maybe the trainer won't feel as uncomfortable about it if you use a sound that doesn't sound like a correction. Like making kissy sounds or teaching him a focus command.
If he likes agility so much, why not see if you can use it as a reward? You could have him off to the side and work on Obedience stuff with intermittent "play" on the agility equipment. Breaking up play and work could help keep his threshold down and in an overall better state of mind.
When it comes to the marking, has he done it in any other indoor place? Does he do it in your house or at other places where he is comfortable being in?
Unfortunately, we're not at the same location as the agility stuff. We're just in a strip mall, basically, with a room used for training, and another room that has some dogs available for adoption.
And he's never marked in our house at all. He's marked a few times in my friend's house, but always in exactly the same place, where her dog has peed too. He's tried in a petsmart once, but I interrupted him. That's about it. So this is a totally new behavior for me to deal with.
Well, we made the neutering appt. for April first. That should help some, though I agree it will not fix everything. I'll try class next week and see how he does. He seems to like the play part the least, so I might give him some time outs (in the car) when they have play. None of the dogs are rude either. They're a great bunch--but they are all around 6 months old, and had been in a class together before. All of them still have a lot of puppy behavior, but I've seen a lot of appeasing gestures toward Leo (even when he's trying to ignore them), and no roughness or anything. But he's never really been big on being with a variety of dogs in a group, though he does have some dog friends he really likes.
He came out of his stress a bit in class near the end last time. One exercise was to have them in down stays while other dogs walked around them, and he refused to even sit, so we couldn't participate, so the trainer said, well, try walking him through the dogs, and he did that in perfect form, was uninterested in the other dogs, and did well. It was the only thing he seemed able to focus on all night. Also, when the trainer gave up for the evening (Leo had peed and was stressed, another dog peed, one pooped, and one vomited, so we thought it was kind of an off night!) she said lets give them one more playtime, and Leo actually wagged his tail and sniffed a couple of dogs that went by, so I could see he was feeling somewhat more comfortable, though he wouldn't approach on his own.
I'm also going to try to get him used to the belly band around the house--it was new last week. If he looks like he's improving, we will continue, but if he doesn't, we may have to quit and try something else.
(I know he'll do the agility, even in a group, so if nothing else, there's that, and I could incorporate some straight obedience stuff into that class, maybe).
Leo went back to class on Weds. I thought he was stressed by the play group, so I kept him out of that part, and sure enough, he followed all my commands fine outside the classroom, but inside, even when it was not a play group, he was much more hesitant. One thing is he hates the belly band and it makes him freeze. And I just don't think he feels comfortable with all the other dogs. but still, by the end, he seemed a bit more relaxed. He stayed just fine, but that's because he was frozen with his belly band on.
He's going to be neutered on Monday, so won't go to class next week anyway. After that, I'll see how he's doing. He seems to be slightly better each time, but if he really hates it then we'll try something else.
We did have a couple of annoying moments, first with the assistant trainer. The trainer is great, but as I walked in, I saw the play group, and decided not to bring him in, and when I told the assistant that, she said "what's wrong with him?" I said nothing, he just doesn't enjoy the group play sessions, and luckily the real trainer came up then and said "not all dogs do--let's not make him uncomfortable then by putting him through it" which is the obvious answer, but I was annoyed by the "what's wrong with him?" comment.
And then there was another person in the class who irritated me. I know they only see Leo frozen, and not listening to commands because he's stressed, but still, he does actually know everything they're doing in class (except he doesn't stay well from a distance--which he does in class because he's frozen! ) But there is one dog who pretty much does everything immediately, and she's the star, of course, and only 6 months old, and the very young handler said something like "well, of course, if you work with them a lot and have high expectations for them they'll learn" and then looked at me like me and Leo pityingly, like obviously we just didn't work hard enough, and I thought you have a pitbull/GSD cross. That dog is so biddable a four year old could train it. I'm not impressed.
Comments
Leo H-A-T-E-S his ruffwear harness, but we quite like it! *lol* He runs when he sees me pick it up (and not towards me in joy!). I like it because it would be difficult for him to get out of it, and because I've had to, on occassion, pick him up with it, so it's useful for that, or simply for grabbing him. He even wore it when he tried lure coursing, and when he decided to jump over the fences from the course and keep running, he was pretty easy to catch (he loved the lure coursing otherwise, and I don't think he was intending to go far, but you know, loose Kai=scary situation).
I guess I didn't put that in our updates. Leo has been busy with agility. We're in a semi-hiatus now, as there's too much snow and our trainer has an outside course, but we've been working on that, and he loves it. The trainer thinks he has some potential to actually compete too, though we're mostly doing it to have something fun to work on. But she likes that he learns super fast, that he clearly really really likes it (he has a lot of drive and gets super excited when he sees the equipment), and that he can adjust his speed to what I'm doing. We've got a long ways to go (he does get overwhelmed sometimes and just sits with his back to everything which means it's time for a break for him!), but it's really fun.
And he's done lure coursing once and thought it was the best thing ever! We'll probably have some more fun with that in the spring!
Our little whirlwind of naughty is one! And tomorrow he begins an "advanced" obedience class (which is what all classes after puppy class are called at the Animal Humane society, so I'm not expect serious advanced). Leo probably won't like it: he's great at agility, but he has little impulse control and staying still is not a favorite thing (stay? what's that?). But it will be good for him!
Here are a couple of pics of Leo:
Oh no! The harness freeze! On top of the sofa!
I want to read the NK forum too!
He's reading the car forum--what, no dog photos?!
Noble Leo:
He does shut down sometimes in big groups, and though it wasn't a big group--only 4 other dogs--he just refused to do anything but stare at the door, because he wanted to leave. He ignored me and was frozen in the room. They thought he was doing well on his stays, but he wasn't--he was just frozen.
then there was off leash play time. Except Leo must have decided it was off leash pee time, because he peed on everything. I lost count of how many times he peed. Toys, wall, another dog, the trainer. :-O Yep, on the trainer. And then he tried to pee on her assistant, but she saw him and moved.
So he has to wear a bellyband or something next time. And the trainer joked, well, then he'll really be still in class, because she already knows how he freezes when he's wearing something.
Oh Leo!
I'd been kind of self-congratulatory on how he wasn't marking more than my speutered dogs, but I guess I just hadn't seen him in a place where he really wanted to mark, I guess, where there was a lot of other dog smells to get him going. Oh Leo.
(And his not working was very much his "I'm overwhelmed so I'm not going to do anything" issue. I tried to give him a break outside, but even outside, with all the traffic and noise, was too overstimulating. I might have to give him a break in the car next time if he gets overwhelmed.)
I guess this will be really good for him though. He needs to be in a group class again, and learn how to handle that. His agility class was one on one and in the mountains, so it was quiet and not distracting at all.
Now we're back at Animal Humane where he took his puppy class, for an advanced obedience. He already knows everything we're doing, except you wouldn't be able to tell in class. He's also started marking. We've gone to two classes and each time, he marked so many times indoors I lost track, and this last time he marked on several different people (he was wearing a belly band, though so no pee got on people, thankfully). He's never done anything like this before. And then he was over threshhold--partly because even though he has been here many times, it's new people, new dogs, and he gets overwhelmed easily, but also the belly band (which he obviously has to wear, though last night was the first time he wore it, and he does get stressed by having to wear things). So then he would do nothing. Not even look at me. Or sit. He just faced the door and was totally unresponsive.
I tried giving him time outs, which worked well when he was first overwhelmed at his agility class, but this place is on a busy street and he finds even that too overwhelming. The trainer said if he's not willing to work, that's fine, just let him sit there--it as clear he wasn't able to learn anything right then. I'm just kind of surprised he finds this so stressful. He's been here before. He knows and likes the trainer. There are only four other dogs, and though they are young and rambunctious, they're great dogs and none have approached him rudely.
The thing is, right now he seems to think he doesn't have to do any work at all if there are dogs present, or that work only =agility (with it's obvious rewards) so thats the only time he'll do anything. He needs to be more reliable in other circumstances, too, but right now this class is clearly too much for him. It did take a couple of weeks for him to stop being overwhelmed in other classes (one here), so maybe he'll rally here too, but right now, we just go, he marks, ignores the other dogs and people, and then stares at the wall.
He does need to be able to function in busier circumstances too. I mean, obviously, his skill at agility will be useless if he shuts down when there is a lot of activity (not that he has so far, but he's only been in class with a few other dogs), but more to the point, I don't want to see him this stressed. But how else to deal with him? I'm going to go next week,not expecting much, and see if he gets better. At the very end of class, he did approach another dog in an interested manner, and he also was finally willing to do a heeling exercise, which he did well at (he wouldn't do anything that involved sitting still, though).
Is this too much stress for him? But then how do I get him used to being in group situations? Thoughts?
And also, I asked this on FB, but I do kind of think I should interrupt his attempts at marking with a verbal correction, but she thinks I shouldn't and just let the wet belly band be a deterrent to him. What do other people think?
eta: we are going to neuter him, btw, but probably not before the class is over, so the marking is an issue for now, and one I certainly hope improves with neutering, though there are no guarantees there, I know.
Stupid question: I'm assuming you've already tried high value treats? Maybe hand feed him some of his dinner there?
When it comes to peeing, have you tried to distract him before he lifts? Instead of correcting him after the fact, watch him and when he starts giving signs that he is going to mark, try to divert his attention to something else. Sounds like his marking is an attempt to express his stress or trying to bring comfort to a bad situation. Neutering may reduce it but it may not eliminate it totally as there is a psychological part to marking.
Perhaps part of the additional stress was the addition of the belly band? I have never been around a male dog that marked (excessively) before, so I am not quite sure how it works or how comfortable it is.
I wonder if it might be more effective if you go ahead and neuter him and then take the class once he has healed. I am not sure if your trainer would work with you on that (I know some of them can be sticklers for no rescheduling). But that is a thought.
Since there are so many variables, I am not really sure where you would want to start. If it were me in that situation, I would neuter first (since he is now over a year old) and deal with the marking issue, then work up to dealing with busy training situations.
If he already knows that peeing inside means being moved outside, I wonder if he's trying to give a dramatic signal about wanting to move out of the room?
I could up the value of treats. Sometimes he was too far over threshhold to take them, but he was hungry, and did tend to more for cheese than the other treats he doesn't like as much. So by the end of class, he was taking treats (cheese) again.
The idea of bringing another dog is good, but my others are too problematic to handle. Bel is TERRIFIED of strangers and strange places. Oskar is dog aggressive and huge, so that would be nightmarish in that small space (we'd be asked to leave. They already had to ask one reactive dog to leave). Toby doesn't like other dogs at all.
I think I'll try again next week, and be prepared to give him time out in the car. He doesn't like the car that much either, but he is used to having time outs in the car at his agility class, so it might be familiar. Then if he still is unable to handle class, we'll have to rethink it. He may just need a slower intro, it's true. (though I bet if I put him in the group agility class, he'd be fine, as the agility stuff is such a powerful reward for him he's usually willing to work through his discomfort).
And as I was writing, I see some other responses, and yes, I wonder if it's just a bit much now. He may hope that marking will get him taken out of class, though I don't take him out right after he does it (I have to clean it up first!) but still, I do think it is something about discomfort. But I do think it is a sign of discomfort (as well as just run of the mill marking!)
Gotta run, but thanks, and more thoughts are, of course, very welcome!
If he likes agility so much, why not see if you can use it as a reward? You could have him off to the side and work on Obedience stuff with intermittent "play" on the agility equipment. Breaking up play and work could help keep his threshold down and in an overall better state of mind.
And he's never marked in our house at all. He's marked a few times in my friend's house, but always in exactly the same place, where her dog has peed too. He's tried in a petsmart once, but I interrupted him. That's about it. So this is a totally new behavior for me to deal with.
He came out of his stress a bit in class near the end last time. One exercise was to have them in down stays while other dogs walked around them, and he refused to even sit, so we couldn't participate, so the trainer said, well, try walking him through the dogs, and he did that in perfect form, was uninterested in the other dogs, and did well. It was the only thing he seemed able to focus on all night. Also, when the trainer gave up for the evening (Leo had peed and was stressed, another dog peed, one pooped, and one vomited, so we thought it was kind of an off night!) she said lets give them one more playtime, and Leo actually wagged his tail and sniffed a couple of dogs that went by, so I could see he was feeling somewhat more comfortable, though he wouldn't approach on his own.
I'm also going to try to get him used to the belly band around the house--it was new last week. If he looks like he's improving, we will continue, but if he doesn't, we may have to quit and try something else.
(I know he'll do the agility, even in a group, so if nothing else, there's that, and I could incorporate some straight obedience stuff into that class, maybe).
He's going to be neutered on Monday, so won't go to class next week anyway. After that, I'll see how he's doing. He seems to be slightly better each time, but if he really hates it then we'll try something else.
We did have a couple of annoying moments, first with the assistant trainer. The trainer is great, but as I walked in, I saw the play group, and decided not to bring him in, and when I told the assistant that, she said "what's wrong with him?" I said nothing, he just doesn't enjoy the group play sessions, and luckily the real trainer came up then and said "not all dogs do--let's not make him uncomfortable then by putting him through it" which is the obvious answer, but I was annoyed by the "what's wrong with him?" comment.
And then there was another person in the class who irritated me. I know they only see Leo frozen, and not listening to commands because he's stressed, but still, he does actually know everything they're doing in class (except he doesn't stay well from a distance--which he does in class because he's frozen! ) But there is one dog who pretty much does everything immediately, and she's the star, of course, and only 6 months old, and the very young handler said something like "well, of course, if you work with them a lot and have high expectations for them they'll learn" and then looked at me like me and Leo pityingly, like obviously we just didn't work hard enough, and I thought you have a pitbull/GSD cross. That dog is so biddable a four year old could train it. I'm not impressed.
Ah well. Leo peed on her dog.