Kai really do go "all in" for their owners
So a short story of mine confirming the saying on NKF that a good Kai is willing to lay down their life for their owner. My best friend was in town and after getting out of the shower, needed some extra things. Apparently to Ciqala she looked like a threat with a towel wrapped around her head. Ciqala initially did a round of deep warning grunts and started barking. As my friend approached, Ciqala jumped up and tried to bay her?? (quick deep barking and circling w/ quick advance/retreats. after my friend got too close Ciqala jumped on me with her front legs laying across my chest (I was laying on the ground not paying attention). she continued barking until the towel came off, then it was "oh, its just you!" . I'm sure if she was any bigger and heavier she would have effectively covered me by pinning me down. pretty cool if you ask me.
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This is great she is coming to you rather than away and I certainly would reward that and keep building on it!!!
However, I would do some additional work with funny hats, glasses, noses, big shoes and odd objects..... randomize it in various locations. Use treats and make it a game to go find person thing or at least look at the funny object person building up to full contact in order to avoid overwhelming the dog.
I don't know her.....Just my thoughts given they type of dog you have.
Snf
The question is, do you want Ciqala to fight out of fear?
That's part of the reason I chose NKs in the first place. I sure don't want my dogs greeting them and asking for treats- if I wanted that, I would have gotten a Siberian husky. I live alone so it behooves me to have a good warning system, I've worked pretty hard at training them to listen for the door knob jiggle, the door opening, and to watch for people walking behind me too closely etc... yes, its not professional, but it works and they know when to stop.
why do i say she thought it was an intruder? All three of us were startled by the door opening, I was half asleep, Saru was practically raised by her so after a quick look, he went about his business. Ciqala never significantly interacted with her before- thus her reaction was prolonged.
So, is it issue with unbridled fear? I'm no expert, but I'd say she's average for her age. not to say she couldn't use more training (namely recall), but I'm not looking for perfection. both dogs have had plenty of experience with malls and random strangers cooing at them, children pulling tails and poking eyes. However; I have defined conditions for them to be wary/on watch.
I think the rest is more of an issue of semantics than anything else. I used that saying because it is old and seems to be a common, long running trait amongst Kai. The psychological processes behind it are far beyond the scope of this post. it was purely meant to observe a conformation with an anecdote specific to Kai.
So for me, know, I would never want my dog to fight out of fear.
I don't know what you mean about "observe a conformation"?
Sounds to me like Ciqala was reacting out of fear as well. Nothing wrong with that, but I wouldn't want to encourage a fear reaction.
I'm fairly new to actually having a Kai, so I could be wrong, but to me, they'd make no better watch dogs than a husky, which will also alarm bark. For someone wanting more of a protective dog, an AA would be a better choice, I'd think. I can see the difference in reaction right now: the guy is here pumping the septic tank and my AA is alarm barking but is also very frustrated that he can't get out and guard me from the "threat" of the big truck and strange man. (His guarding is just getting in between us, but that's fine). And my Kai? He rushed out with joy to meet a new person, and the big truck didn't bother him at all!
I think a further issue possibly is you have not randomized the locations enough, at least in the home and in shadow for unexpected visitor(s) you have allowed into your home as a guest. Never put a dog into situation to sort it out or make the final deciding call. So not to be harsh, in this case it seems you may not have done this wisely to be fair to the dog. Dogs often react very differently in the home environment to novel people and things than on the street. Always have your dog's back and the guest's too.
As I said before, good for you that Ciqala comes back to you for reassurance. However, I am slightly confused. If it is protection you seek, that isn't something I would rely on coming from a Kai quite honestly. Whether they provide that voluntarily will vary from dog to dog and temperament to temperament but again I would not make assumptions and randomly have a dog take that role until you know more on their ability to take pressure. Ability to take pressure varies with environment. From the brief information it does not sound like she is fully secure in that type role to me.
Can you clarify a bit on the following. You build in "conditions for them to be wary/on watch"?
Snf
If I lived out in the wilderness, a dog that would protect me from predators would be great - the dog knows the danger when its going up against a bear or a big cat, and if its willing to face that danger for me, I appreciate it. But a dog cannot and will not ever understand the REAL hazards of protecting against another human being and its reprehensible to ask the dog to do it.
(Obviously this doesn't apply to real guard and police dogs, who do not get sanctioned for doing their job. I'm only talking about "family pets" owned by civilians.)
By the way, @shibamistress, it is not recommended that Akitas be trained for Schutzhund. They are too independent, intelligent, and stubborn for it. Akitas have terrible recall and very often don't do what you say - and training one to bite people is just asking for trouble. What do you do when the dog doesn't release on command? Not to mention they are smart enough to figure out, "Hey, that OTHER guy doesn't have armor!", and independent enough to decide to override your authority and switch targets. Not good. Akitas are powerful, but not overly obedient or eager to please, and that's why cops use more pliable breeds like GSDs not Akitas.
IMHO the first might work for lgds but dangerous for any dog surrounded by people.
And I think an Akita could be trained for schutzhund, and some have. We have some videos around here somewhere of some AAs being trained as PPDs in Russia. I also think most AAs are quite intelligent enough to see the difference between when they are in training on the schutzhund field and when they are not. I don't think they can't do it--it's just that they are big, heavy dogs and not the most agile dogs on the planet, so they wouldn't excel at some parts of the sport, and certainly probably wouldn't compete well with Malinois or GSD. But for fun, I have no doubts they could do it. Of course it's not the norm, and it would depend on the individual dog. Someone on the Shiba forum said that where she lives in Alabama they are using AAs in the jails too (not sure what they're doing--I didn't get details). Some Akitas can be trained to do anything--I mean there are even agility Akitas! But of course it depends on the dog.
And my AA has pretty good recall and is pretty biddable, as far as NKs go anyway.
Anyway, sorry for the digression!
eta: here's the thread on AAs being trained: http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/6733/aa-demonstrating-defense-training/p1
Koda is 3, but I do remember the flight instinct he had as a puppy, and honestly it made me feel like I couldn't make him safe. I was always scared of him running off and getting spooked. He did it a few times, and it sucked. Luckily nothing happened.
When Mika came into the home a few weeks ago, Koda would have the same reaction as Ciqala with strangers walking by us and the puppy. Kais can look a bit schitzo when they go into this mode, and it can be pretty intimidating. Honestly, I felt like his reaction was completely ridiculous since the people walking were not exhibiting any type of threatening behavior, but it was better than him running away when I was had a puppy to look after.
Now that he's been out with her several times, and he realizes that she's not scared of people and that people are nice to the puppy, he has stopped this behavior. I much rather that than any fight or flight instinct.
I too live alone, and it can be difficult to get a Kai used to having people in the house. You have to really work at it, and sometimes it's just not possible. I have always invited lots of people over to the house to get them used to visitors, but honestly it's tiring.
I have met a couple Kais who are impossible when people come to visit. One had to be put to sleep because he finally, after 7 years, bit someone. It was very sad to hear.
Not that Ciqala would ever do anything like that! It just came to mind, and I believe in transparency when it comes to the breed.
I don't think anyone called Ciqala's reaction "unbridled fear". That is a very harsh statement. But Ciqala is a Kai, and fear (even remote) can come when living with this breed.
@poeticdragon "The dog should tell me that there is a bad person and I'll go get my gun"
I'm with you!!!! It's my job to protect the home, not my dog's. It's my job to protect Mika, not Koda's. You reinforce these rules when you live with a breed that can be considered dangerous, i.e. Rotts and JA's. No one wants their dog put down.
The old theory behind protection sports is that dogs flip between 3 drives - prey, defense, and fight. Prey drive is fun for the dog and useful for teaching chase and doing off-home work. Ciqala obviously isn't in prey drive in the instance that you described.
Defense drive is more tricky. It is a reaction under pressure (could be fear, could be a feeling of being trapped) and the dog resorts to a survival mode. You don't want a dog to stay in defense mode because it is easier to permanently mess up the dog. This is the drive a dog may be in when defending a home (can't escape). An insecure dog might try to circle and bite from the blindside of the person, while a more confident dog might try a frontal attack. Most of my co-workers who used to be meter readers avoided bites because most dogs have been insecure and simply directly confronting the dog caused those dogs to back off.
And my fearful Shiba has occasionally looked like she was going to bite the meter reader....coming at him from behind. One guy (fedex) jumped at her though, and that made it much, much worse...in her case it was clear that confrontation spurred on her defense drive and she was going to go for it as she saw him as a big threat. I intervened at told the guy 1) don't come in the yard when a dog is out and 2) never jump at a dog and wave a stick like that. (she normally is not out for meter readers/deliveries, but occasionally they come in before I can catch her).
I would actually want my dogs to bite the person if only so that a blood trail would be left behind along with my dead dogs.
@StaticNfuzz -Yes, the information was limited because the intent was simply to tell a story, not provide proof of her abilities, good or bad. however; Ciqala is very possessive and tenacious. She is not afraid of loud noises/yelling. she does have a fear of large inanimate objects, especially trash bags and parked motorcycles. To clarify those conditions, they are: sleep time- no one should be here, if they are barking is okay. walking, no one should be walking closely behind me, barking is okay. how does this play out? They hear what I have defined for them as a "bad" (my door handle or loud banging on the door/wall) noise--> bark--> we investigate--> come back--> get a reward-->go to sleep. with people walking I'll usually let them pass, if I don't see them then Saru usually stops and in this way signals "hey check it out." they'll bark if the person stops too and stares. Which is pretty creepy if you ask me, but it has happened. Once again, not done by a pro but it works for my purposes.
As we all know, Kai have a tendency to be fearful, hence the thread dedicated to figuring out ways to curb it. If i had all the answers i sure would share them, but i don't. In light of this, and given my location, I still stand by my preference to have her stand her ground BY ME (don't know how to do italics) rather than run off into the woods where she definitely is not safe. If I cant help her differentiate stressful situations, or until i do, then I'd rather this be the default. Sounds harsh/mean/unfair, but on the off chance a stranger opens my door, I'd want my dogs near me and not running off into gator land- I do like my canines alive and in one piece.
As far as the reactiveness goes, I just got back from a FL to OH trip where both behaved beautifully the whole way. They interacted properly with strangers at gas stations, passing cars/semis on the side of the road, screaming children, and even the foreign environment where we stayed. Ciqala did have some flighty moments but they were short lived once she got to sniff around.
Do I really think she was protecting me for the sake of some noble cause? No.
Did I acknowledge that particular situation with some type of reward? No.
Do I expect a 20 pound dog to physically protect a 6'7" 280lb and rather scary looking human? No.
Do I expect my dogs to let me know when someone is at my door/looming behind me? Yes
Did I observe something said about Kai long before I even had one? Yes.
What do I consider protection *for me*? My dogs barking.
Also, animals are just as capable of selflessness and heroism as humans are. You can explain all altruism through science, genetics, hormones, etc. Dogs have brains and in those brains are chemicals and they're just as capable of having a dopamine spike as a genetically pre-programmed response to helping a loved one rather than running. It's evolution! Dogs and humans both evolved altruism in order to survive. So, while there may not be something noble in the grand scheme of the universe, you can say the same of humans.
"To clarify those conditions" (of wariness), "they are: sleep time- no one should be here, if they are barking is okay. walking, no one should be walking closely behind me..... bark if the person stops too and stares".
--Ok fair enough...
As long as you know what your dog's intent clearly is and you have control over that then there isn't more to be said. You initially were speaking of guests not intruders....If you welcome guests or semi/guests into the home the dog should be able to acknowledge this without alarm and this is where my concern stemmed in terms of training and setting up for success in greetings or refresher greetings etc. in order to avoid inappropriate reactive responses or your dog feeling a need for one. Sorry if this was not clear...
Was there a scary unwelcome 280 lb human in your home?... if so, I know my my dog and I would be full alert as appropriate, you betcha. We can not all live in a manicured world and dogs certainly can help us out in some rougher spots.
PS: The trouble with electronic text it is a cold medium and so responses can come across a bit trite.....no offense meant....I was just trying to trouble shoot what appeared to stand out in regard to the first scenario you posted.
Snf
ALL Guarding is a fear-based behavior. If a dog engages a person/animal, whether they make contact or not, if it's not fear-based then its predatory. I think it's highly unlikely Ciqala viewed Kel's friend as quarry (food).
When Luytiy charges across the yard to drive off a Coyote, or Parka stands in front of Jen prepared to engage, or Kodi barks at Ritsu for getting too close to his kennel, they are guarding - and it is a fear based response to something they view as threatening.
Schutzhund, the sport or the test, is predatory-based program. The dogs are trained to bite out of prey instinct. There is little-to-no defensive pressure put on a schutzhund dog. Actually, the schutzhund community has changed their view on "defensive dogs" that they out-right disprove of them. Any dog that shows civil aggression in the PP Sports / schutzhund world is thought to be inappropriate for the sport/test.
Any dog with a reasonable amount of predatory instinct can be trained in schutzhund, they may not win lots of titles and ribbons, but they can still be trained to perform the basic schutzhund steps.
You can train a dog to not like people, or to guard on command (object guard), but these are trained behaviors and not natural instinct. What cannot be trained is true defensiveness and natural guarding instinct - and to take it even further - civil aggression (anger).
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It comes down to the owner, I think. When you rely on a dog to guard (anything), you are trusting their judgment and have to accept the fact that they may not always view a threat as a threat or something nonthreatening as nonthreatening. This is where the value of exposure and socialization plays a very important role in a guard dog.
If the point is to look at the behavior, and ignore the context, then yea, I think Ciqala showed some nice protective behavior. Was it appropriately directed... probably not.
My take away from something like this would be along these lines...
"Oh neat, Ciqala showed some nice protectiveness, but I may want to work on getting her comfortable with nonthreatening things."
Just like when we see a pup in our litter show a little more fear than the others, we don't label them as fearful and place them in a home that a fearful dog would do well in... We see it as a sign that we need to work more with that puppy.
We all know, socialization never stops, and that's even more the case with a guard dog or a naturally suspicious dog.
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The easiest way to understand civil aggression is to think of in terms of anger. A dog with a lot of civil aggression could be said to have a "bad temper."
In the schutzhund or sports world, they prefer to have a dog that's working in "prey mode" not in "defensive mode." For dogs, anything that involved their predatory instinct is fun - think of it like how classical conditioning works to create a positive association - predatory behavior has a preconditioned positive association "hardwired" in the dog's head because, typically, predatory behavior results in eating. When you work a dog's predatory instincts, it's fun for the dog - it's a "game."
When you work a dog with very little predatory instinct, you typically have to work them in "defensive mode" which means you are pushing the dog to respond out of stress/pressure (fear). You have to "trick" the dog into thinking he's not playing a game anymore, this is real. When you see a decoy working a dog's defensive instincts that dog see's the "test" or "training" as real - he is really protecting or fighting.
You can easily work around a lack of civil aggression in a schutzhund/sport dog as you can "rev them up" using their natural predatory instincts to get them excited to bite - this is the point of schutzhund-based training.
In PPD training, where you are relaying on the dogs natural instincts to protect (instead of training markers like you do in schutzhund), the dog is almost always operating in a defensive manner. So, in these dogs, civil aggression becomes an important factor - it's hard to elicit a aggressive (fight) defensive reaction from a dog who doesn't get "mad."
In PPDs too much civil aggression and you get a dog who "tips" too easily - they want to bite. Too little civil aggression and you don't get a very effective protector (takes too much to make them mad).
So, the selection of a PPD comes down to a few different components: Do they have the desire to fight a threat? How pressure does it take to elicit a reaction? Once "angry" (engaged), are they controllable and do they take much physical pressure (physical environmental pressure)? How long does it take them to cool-off after they have engaged and do they stay "mad"?
Different people want different criteria for those questions - but if you answer "no" to too many of them, then you don't have a very good PPD prospect.
In schutzhund world, a "hard" dog (takes a lot of pressure) who shows a lot of civil aggression and is hard to control is said to have the "red mist"... You know the saying with people "seeing red"... Same thing. A dog that gets mad really fast and hold on to it and will take a lot of pressure and "checks out" while engaged is NOT something a schutzhund trainer wants... However, it may be something a PPD trainer wants depending on where the dog will be used (like riot control).
So... To take this back to Kai Ken...
We (Jen and I) tend to select away from civil aggression in our Kai Ken. We prefer our Kai to avoid conflict. This is why they are typically good with other dogs. However, I am starting to wonder if by doing that we've actually reinforced their flight-response - and that is especially concerning to all of us with these runaway Kai Ken.
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Of course, Taka ran away too, and we didn't have much say in the selection of her sire and dam... So, I added that point about the Kai as a "cautionary thought" I've been having in the planning of future selection.
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Contrast with Sage who could never get far enough away to return to his front brain (the objective of flight) and stays in hind brain far too long. Also note that the prescribed training for fear/reactivity at the typical pet dog level is the *opposite* - to counter condition, click and treat, stand and stuff-a-dog before breaking pressure, as well as the typical tools prescribed (headcollars for example) which restrain and hold. "Look at me" is nice but anyone can put their eyes on you and think of something else.
I believe that in fearful-dog training, working under threshold is not bolded/illustrated/demonstrated nearly enough, and that as a lay dog owner one's desire for progress, and to stop the reactive display altogether is so great that running from a threat- while a completely natural coping mechanism for all animals- is completely overlooked as a step in trust maintenance, except in dire emergencies when one has to bail and cant train. I feel that after going thru all Sage and I have been thru, that by honoring Juno's real needs and comfort, helping her continue to see me as on her side and helpful (she begins with total trust in me and I am not ruining that) she has never gone where Sage went- she has some degree of flight response and I respect it. But she also knows that I can show her things are okay in HER own time, which is actually quite short. (AND that by following me- rerouting- that we can avoid something altogether. I remain part of a solution that is natural to her.)
One day at work she was visiting a bunch of the maintenance guys eating their lunch. Indoors, off leash. She had met many of them before but not all, and not all at once. One guy, Roland, observed she was cautious as she approached him, and -asshole that he is- he stared at her and deliberately spooked her by stamping his foot. She pinned her ears and ran a few steps away form him, toward me and the table, but didnt blast off. I sent Roland an icy glare but chose to deal with him later and stuck by my dog: I simply told her This Way (away from Roland) and we went to the other side of the table where some nicer guys were, she had a brief positive encounter and we left that room and went to visit Adam, who is funny and she adores. I stood by her, and supported her flight, and I think this makes a difference to her.
I believe that had I forced her to suck it up and feed her through the scary thing at convenient-to-me proximity, she might or might not eat the cheeseburgers but she'd feel that she was stuck to me and that if I wasnt going *with* her, in order to make herself feel safe she would have to run away from BOTH me and Roland/the creepy-noise-making kids. I would be part of the thing she was resisting. I must always be (to HER) part of the solution. I will go touch the object first, shake the stranger's hand, tell them to turn around a moment so she can sniff their legs from the back- and she DOES! Immediately!
I know all the literature says to never let kai off the leash, and with all the recent kai bolts I feel I probably ought to lay low on the topic and support what the general public really needs to hear (NEVER NEVER), but here in the comfort of our Forum, in a serious discussion, I am going to stick my neck out and suggest that the very off leash work that we have practiced since she was 4 months old paired with my Sage-given epiphany of what listening to a dog really means (honoring what is True for Them right now) may be the exact thing that allows our relationship to stay connected in a pinch and for us to have experience in flight, recovery and return to curiosity. My response under pressure could still flip her switch- if I choose to chase her or scream, etc.- she is not immune from that, BUT- we have both had reps of facing things together (not many, but it doesnt NEED to be many) in agreement and not only do I know her flight distance, I also know what action I can make that shortens it for her and returns her to acting, not reacting. I think for an experienced dog owner, long line work in big fields can help reinforce the partnership- and if this work is well-established BEFORE you meet a situation you cant get distance in, the dog will trust you to do your best. (and you have to do your end of the bargain!)
It is SOOoooo much easier to prevent & teach than to undo and teach. Sage and I will work on this the rest of his life - but Juno and I can work much more lightly all her life because she hasn't had the negative, poorly supported experiences he had.
Like you, what I did notice about her is the expenditure of stress must go through motion before refocus occurs. If you can get her moving she gets that stress out really fast. At first I thought I was just imagining it and then I had a little discussion with our trainer with observations of Kori and now that you have brought up your techniques with Juno it really makes sense to keep going with that. I will continue adding the elements of motion as part of redirection. With many of the Shibas the redirection was with a toy tossed away, bringing back to me, or direct contact rather than moving away with the dog. Hence I was getting a bit lazy initally in moving out myself until now.
You write: I think with our dogs on 6 foot leashes we dont allow, and therefore can;t see, accurate flight distance at all. I know my kai is powerfully curious, but I also know that she sometimes needs to make room first, so when she has been alarmed on leash I will flee with her and turn with her, then reward her curiosity.
---By trial we are doing this too and it seem to help A LOT, and because of the distance and recovery issue I have decided to work on line training for her, simply because she needs the space and distance and my interaction to move out and away with her..... given her willingness to re-investigate it seems to be working out for her specific case. We shall see how training stages develop.
You write: I had her in a harness I was afraid she could back out of if push came to shove- so I slacked up as much as I could to keep her from slipping the harness and not knowing what else to do I just trotted (but didnt RUN) with her, then when she slowed, we were able to observe assess and act. (and reward) We replanned our route, and she told me she didnt want to go by those kids, so I rerouted our walk through the woods instead of the road and she let it go completely. I think this has demonstrated (show me dont tell me is how dogs work) to her that I wont force her to face a thing, and reinforced her trust in me.
----Really good technique. Had this conversation with Suzanne Clothier and she was discussing the issue of honoring the dog's fear. Not necessarily giving in to it, but allowing for alternatives and allowing the dog to make some choices as to what it would prefer once the fear has subsided. Really listening to what direction the specific dog would like to take as part recovery and have the handler as part of that home/team base backing the decision. (This all sound so "hokie" until you experience it and get down to brass tacks. All the other trainer mumbo-jumbo is just out the window, it really comes down to the individual dog and allowing it to make choices to think it out once it comes down to a level it can think....in our case it is distance)
You write: I believe that in fearful-dog training, working under threshold is not bolded/illustrated/demonstrated nearly enough, and that as a lay dog owner one's desire for progress, and to stop the reactive display altogether is so great that running from a threat- while a completely natural coping mechanism for all animals- is completely overlooked as a step in trust maintenance, except in dire emergencies when one has to bail and cant train.
---So so true....allowing moving away from the source with the dog seems to slip most trainers minds as part of the bonding/team process....I am finding this out as well in just the first few weeks in working outdoors. I think the other factor is age. This has to start early before poor patterns of recover are entrenched in their brains and you hit novel or new areas in adulthood. Distance training is going to be absolutely essential our this case.
I hope as other Kai owners work through their dogs they will pipe in what is working for them.
Snf
PS: almost forgot to mention there is a dvd Line training for dogs. Some of it might be a bit remedial but some of it is relevant to just working with the line. It's in English and German. We use Palomine lines for all types of work to keep from irritating hands etc. and does not get tangled. Highly recommend them and delivery is fast.
Snf