Breeding a female at 1 or at 2?
So it was recently brought to my attention that Japanese breeders breed their females at one year of age, however, in America, we wait until two. I thought it was basically blasphemy to breed until the female was two.
So. What's with this? Is this true? How do they get away with breeding at one, isn't that really unhealthy for the female or is there something else to it?
So. What's with this? Is this true? How do they get away with breeding at one, isn't that really unhealthy for the female or is there something else to it?
Comments
I don't know for sure though. Not being a breeder, I'm really not the one to answer this XD
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/115434/#Comment_115434
Most females don't hit that until 1.5 yrs of age.
Mind you, this timeframe is all for the sake of the female's uterus. A breeding program has to consist of more than that.
I don't worry so much about what the mainstream say/thinks, we just do what is best for our dogs.
Only problem is OFA hips. but All asian breeders really don't test hips. I'm going to test all my dogs hips and eyes for sure. but not sure that I can do OFA hips by then.
all asian breeders I know don't do any test on dogs.
They don't think it is really important and that is why it is kinda risky to import dogs from asia.
Jesse
http://research.vet.upenn.edu/Default.aspx?TabId=3539
There's also a mobile vet that attends dog shows that does a bunch of health tests at an inexpensive price. I haven't used them yet, but I've heard good things about how they make sure the dog is positioned correctly before submitting the x-rays.
http://showdogmed.com/bvs.prices.html
It'll be up to you on whether you want to do both PennHip and then OFA Hip. They're two separate tests.
-Ann
Additionally, Japanese Akitas get lumped in with American Akitas when it comes to PennHip scoring. I think in general the American Akitas will have better scores because AA breeders have been screening for good hips much longer. This doesn't help the owner of a JA identify what is above average for a Japanese Akita when considering breeding.
As such, even though I think PennHip is more scientific and a better tool, I will be doing OFA from now on. I plan to get Mosura's prelims done as soon as she comes out of heat... if she ever comes out of heat. At this point Ghidora is close enough to his 2nd birthday that I can wait and do the full deal. Bijo will have hers done as soon as I have paperwork proving her age and she can be away from puppies for a while.
I've just had a Poongsan tested for PennHip and I'm pretty sure he's the first and only one in their database. The vet who took the x-rays could already tell that one hip was better than the other. We'll get the final results in a bit. The quantitative aspect of PennHip appeals to me more than the qualitative aspect of OFA.
Do try out that mobile vet that I mentioned if you want to go PennHip again. They had a clinic at a soCal show not so long ago. You don't have to be entered in that particular show in order to go to the clinic. My malamute friend used them for the exams and for semen collection and was pretty happy with them.
When trying to improve an import breed you may not have a good place to start from. In my case, no health screening is done in the country of origin, so I expect that hip scores will be all over the map trending towards mediocre. A random sampling of imports may have "fair" or "poor" scores (to use OFA terms) and I'd expect full blown dysplasia to be equally as common as "excellent" scores. You work with whats available and with each breeding strive to select dogs that are above average. In time you can bring up your own average and if others are doing the same bring up the breed as a whole. Not knowing what that average is, only that its probably not very good, makes some breeding decisions difficult.
(from reading the thread I was linked to...)
Question: Why is it beneficial to wait until the 3rd heat? (I understand this is good, but what is the reasoning behind it?)
From my understanding, breeding on the third and the fourth heat is good, don't breed on the fifth heat to give the female a break because the third pregnancy is difficult. Then on the sixth heat: breed? Is this right?
Just wondering, this is all new to me.
For example, Akitas have hypothyroidism, Shibas have spinners/glaucomas/hypothyroidism, and some of the medium-sized NK have allergies (shots, food, etc.).
It really depends on the breeder if they believe there is something to be discovered that will knock out a female from a breeding program or not. If a breeder is adamently set on breeding a dog regardless of what may crop up, then they wouldn't see the point of waiting. If the breeder believes there is some condition or disease in the breed that should eliminate or at least reduce the use of the female, then it makes sense to wait and bide their time.
It wasn't actually scientifically investigated until recently and I only know of one study. The study was conducted on 2-year-old bitches who had never been bred; one group was bred on alternate heat cycles for four litters and then spayed (at age ~6), the other group was bred every heat cycle for four litters and then spayed (at age ~4). The reproductive organs were biopsied after the ovariohysterectomy. It concluded that "unproductive heats" in which the bitch comes into season but is not bred are hard on the reproductive organs and increase the likelihood of false pregnancies, pyometra, and mammary cancer. The more unproductive heats the bitch has in her lifetime the more likely these conditions will occur and the more degradation of her ovaries and uterus. To put it simply, canines are not designed for celibacy.
The study also found that as long as the bitch receives proper nutrition and care during pregnancy and nursing there was no long term impact on her health. As an additional factor, the older a bitch is the less fertile and smaller her litters will be; breeding back to back allows the breeder to take advantage of her prime, fertile years and still get the same number of litters over her lifetime. (NB: Both groups the dogs were bred the same number of times (4). The study did not investigate what happens if you breed a dog back to back every heat cycle until she is 6+ years old.)
Preventing a bitch from coming into heat between planned breedings is an effective alternative to breeding back to back. It still prevents the root problem - unproductive heats. As we are not yet ready to breed Mosura, we may be forced to put her on a preventative if she keeps cycling the way she has been. There is no guarantee that once she is taken off of it she will be able to be bred, however.
Personally I will probably do "two out of three" for a total of four litters and then spay. One extra heat isn't going to be the end of the world.
The laika had litters of the following sizes between 1.5 yrs of age and 13 yrs of age: 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 6, 3, 3, 3 and 1
The airdale had litters of the following sizes before she stopped being fertile: 9 (one dead), 9 (one dead), 12, 9, 8, 8 and 7.
For me, this tells me that fertility and "what's best" for a dog will vary from breed to breed, and dog-upbringing culture to culture. I often like to bring up that the Bedouins don't even start breeding their female Saluki's until 6 yrs of age and they don't have issues with fertility. They've somehow bred in dogs with tough uteruses.
To be honest, everyone is going to have an opinion and that's fine. Lately, I've seen a fair amount of breeders that preach health checks and then just turn around and do whatever they want. For me, I just want to see some sort of written health check done. If you do Pennhip or a prelim OFA or wait for OFA just get something in writing. Don't attempt to pull some shady bullshit and lie about your program.
2 years, OFA on the hips and CERF on the eyes seem to work well for me. If you do choose to go earlier make sure it is for the right reason. Recouping some of your cost is NEVER a right reason.
I'm not a breeder obviously, but as a puppy buyer, I'd be looking for someone who does health checks, and to me that means waiting til 2, because I'd like to have a better sense of what the health of both parents is, and of course I'd want to see OFA or Penn Hip results.
Though the other side of that argument would be that one could breed on the first heat. And I do not agree with that. however, I think that through the wonders of science, humans are pretty good at manipulating nature beneficially. So, hooray for good human intervention.
Having said all that, im no more partial to breeding on the third heat than I am to waiting until two years old because both have valid reasons. I'm going to agree with Sean in that everyone is going to have opinions, but as long as you do the health checks, then you're in the clear. And I'm good with that for sure.
About health testing....Just curious, what does someone do about CERF if there aren't dogs in their dbases for comparison.... Say for the Kai, Kishu or other rare breeds?
Eye doc states there isn't a way to do CERF for Kai because the breed simply isn't listed, no percentages to compare to. Is this true? Surely the Japansese Akita was in the same boat at some point.... How did breeders get dogs listed? It is pricy for simply just turning in records if you can not get valid data back. I can see where one would have the eye check paperwork as validation of eye health though for their kennel.
Snf
So back to what everyone mentions about health checks......be sure to look at paperwork supplied by breeder since there is no info in any of the regular dbases.
Snf
However, the org does collect the results of the data which can then be supplied to breed clubs. This is the portion that is less relevant to rare breeds.
On the horizon is the CERF replacement, the OFA ERC. Same exam and rating system but different way of having the results published.
What appears to be new is CERF/ERC now being recorded as part of AKC registration/pedigrees. If a dog doesn't have an AKC registration/pedigree, then they don't get recorded there. It's still recorded with CERF/OFA.
Thanks again
Snf
I haven't done CERF yet but will at the next show with a clinic. There really aren't many Kai in OFA (yet!)
A re-test is recommended after a couple of months. I'm going to use a different vet, a vet with a lot more experience with OFA Thyroid, to pull the blood. The one I used admitted that she's never done it before.