On my phone, can't post much. @timkim I would be concerned about a dental problem. If it hurts to eat that can cause weight loss.
Saw the other vet and ruled out "democratic" mange or other mites with a scraping. So now Mosura has some steroids and other antibiotics. Will find out more on thyroid stuff later in the week. This vet thinks its sensitivity to fleas. I haven't seen any fleas but with switching everyone to Trifexis there was a period of time without preventative on all the animals. Had to wait for the old Interceptor/Advantix doses to be done. Anyway this was only last month, I think fleas could be a factor but not the only one. Maybe there is no one thing and it's a bunch of different things causing a chain reaction and difficult cycle to break.
New vet didn't want to do hypoallergenic food until she was satisfied it isn't fleas. Having a special food for only one of my dogs would be problematic too. We have to think how to manage that. Her food is okay, it's keeping her out of the others' food including the cat food, to prevent a flare up, that were going to have to figure out. Right now were going to try a different brand Mosura did fine on before though.
In regards to breeding her its not on my mind right now. I just want to get her well and know what the problem is. I don't believe spaying her as a shot in the dark is the way to go, however.
Oh man, just wanted to say that I sympathize. Our family dog was a chocolate lab from a great family. She was well bred and we knew both the owners of the bitch and the stud. But she developed terrible skin problems when she was an adolescent. She scratched constantly, her ears were always getting infected, and occasionally her eyes would swell. She used to get these cysts on her elbows and in between her toes. We never really got a diagnosis other than her just being really atopic. Steroid injections seemed to help but we didn't want her to have to depend on that because they can have secondary deleterious effects.
Anyway, I just commiserate. I felt so bad for her. We did everything to try to alleviate her problems including special foods, topical meds, frequent ear washing... There were up and downs. Ultimately things got better as she aged, but I understand the frustration of seeing your dog suffer and not being able to fix it. Hang in there.
I totally understand not wanting to do things without knowing what the root of the problem is,but honestly, this dog has enough problems already that she shouldn't be bred, so why let her go through another empty heat? I think Snf is really right about this...it could be too damaging to new kennel reputation to produce dogs with health problems.
But I take a pretty hardline on this. I have a dog with with genetic health issues, and I informed the breeder who acted like it couldn't be possible. Now the father is still showing and is likely being used as a stud, and I know quite well he carries the gene for micro, as it is recessive--both dam and sire had to carry it.
For what it's worth, she sounds pretty typical of fearful dogs. My girl Shiba can seem fine with people. and my vet didn't even believe she was fearful, because when she gets really scared, she just shuts down. I can see it--her tail is down and she is clingy--but not everyone recognizes that as her being really terrified.
anyway, it sucks all around and I hope you get some answers.
I think poeticdragon is going about this sensibly now. It's not like Mosura's in heat *right now* and she has to decide *right now*.
Though I was the one to bring up the possibility of a fearful dog, I'll also be one of the first to give imports a pass because there are so many things outside of a new owner's control that could have affected the dog. I've seen imported Jindos who were tail-plastered-to-belly shy but produced aloof dogs. Even two imports, one a tail-plastered shy dog and the other a people-shy dog, were bred together to produce one of the most lab-like temperaments I've seen. For domestic dogs, though, I wouldn't give the dog a pass.
For the skin issue, I would actually be on poeticdragon's side in finding out what is causing it and then making a decision based on it. Reaction to bacteria, yeast, fleas, or topicals are stuff I wouldn't eliminate a dog for.
The reproductive issue is the hardest issue in my viewpoint. You would need to know what is going on with JA as a breed, just like people needed to know what is going on with the Shikoku, to proceed with breeding abnormally cycling dogs or not. Ignoring it can hasten the end of a breed, but on the flip side, eliminating the chance for new blood and genetic diversity is going to lead to MHC/immune problems.
I understand that one wants time to get to the bottom of the issues.
However, I pose this question....as a breeder one has to ask themselves, for how long, and how is/are the problematic issue(s) acceptable to potentially pass on given what this dog offers is merely a "chance" in helping genetic diversity, specifically when each issue in all likelihood will diminish that "chance" being a positive outcome long term. Really is this dog's health (with all neg issues) something that would benefit the U.S. stock as a whole? ....Given all the factors I think it would be a stretch to say that collectively it is. There is something to be said for the most viable animals reproducing. If health is not easily maintained why go there genetically hoping reproduction benefits the future population. The many "factors" (three that ayk mentions in particular) seem not to align very well in this case.
Ayk, refresh my memory & for clarity so I understand....isn't that quite high as far as inbreeding? Shouldn't the average be around 4%. I know it depends on the breed and stage of development but when there are clearly enough dogs shouldn't it be a much lower than 15%?
Ryan brings up some points that are important, but my god, can drive you nuts trying to figure out, so again, I can only imagine how frustrating this is. Because yeah, it could be fleas even though you haven't seen any. Or it could be that she's allergic or reacting to one of the topical treatments. Or it even could be she's reacting to a household cleaner or laundry soap. Or it could be a severe food allergy. Or it could be something else entirely. Or a mix. That's the real frustration with trying to figure out stuff like this.
I had a GSD like this years ago, and fwiw, we did several skin scrapes (our vet said sometimes you can miss mange, so might as well do it again). We checked for both types of mange. We thyroid tested him though he was very young at that stage (he later did have a seriously low thyroid but was ok at this time). We finally did allergy testing (blood, not skin test, which is not as accurate but was cheaper). He showed allergies to grains. We did an elimination diet finally. What we discovered through patching all this together was that he had problems with all grains, corn being the worst, but also even with rice. We went raw and he was in great shape til about 5 when the thyroid issue kicked in. But you know, I write that paragraph and it seems somewhat easy, but it was months and months of not knowing and it was frustrating as hell.
I've been reading the thread but trying to take it all in before I commented. @PoeticDragon You are doing everything you can. I truly believe through meeting you at the expo, that you are a responsible owner who is just trying to manage a very difficult and frustrating situation, and I commend you for that.
Don't feel guilty for having negative thoughts. I love Koda. He's my heart. My soulmate in so many ways. He calms me, and his presence in my life has made such a positive impact on who I am in building compassion, patience, and understanding. With that said, I've experienced the feelings that you have had towards Mosura. When Koda sprained his other knee in September, I had a horrible fleeting thought of how frustrating his leg problems are and how they are too much. I actually thought for a split second that maybe I should have just put him down. Immediately I felt regret. I couldn't believe that my mind actually went to that place, but we can't control our thoughts. I love him. I will fight for him to have a long and healthy life, but when your dog has health problems you know that it's a losing battle eventually. Koda will not live a long life like Mika or Mei. He will grow to be in pain when he's older, and I'm more mad at the situation than him. I hate that I'm going to lose him, or have to make the decision to put him down later. I think it's the situation that hardens your heart rather than the defenseless dog.
As far as the biting the butt fur. Mika bit all of her butt fur off before she started going into heat. My vet said that some females just do that.
I know you're not looking for advice, but support. I think it's good that you are seeking second opinions. If one vet doesn't know what's going on, then you should go to another one. Please keep us posted. I will keep both of you in my thoughts.
@ttddinh Thanks. It's actually hard for me to admit. I was so angry with him that I cried my eyes out later. I only told one friend that I thought that, and I know it made me look horrible, and I felt horrible. I just know how stressful the daily worry is. It consumes your life.
Every time I visit this vet I feel a lot more positive though. Both doctors (the repro specialist and the new one I met Sunday) are very optimistic and knowledgeable. They're not dismissive of my concerns, but they help shed light on just how much I blow things out of proportion by freaking out. I feel so much more rational when I talk to them and the dire things that I stress about seem so much simpler and more trivial. There is nothing dishonest or intentionally exaggerated in any of my posts, but the emotional content and high level of stress I was under at the time does color the situation. So above all else, I must remember to listen to and trust the professionals whom I entrust with my dogs' health and wellbeing. I just wish I could get this calmed feeling without the vet bill.
COI stands for coefficient of inbreeding. It is a measure of the probability that two genes at any locus are identical by descent from a duplicate ancestor.
@poeticdragon Trust me I know the feeling. I look at Koda's back legs all day long to check for limping. I can't seem to let it go, and think positive thoughts. I don't think anyone thought you were exaggerating. But I do like hearing that you are in a more hopeful place. Some days will be more tough than others, and I'm glad that you are not internalizing the situation and reaching out to a community for support.
Oh, I forgot to mention. My husband and I are discussing doing a trial period with Mosura living with my parents. That will effectively help us eliminate if there is an environmental factor and/or something with our lifestyle, other dogs, etc. It will also be easier to keep her on a restricted diet for food allergy testing, since they don't have a bunch of other animals' food she could get into.
@poeticdragon--the space would be really great for both you and her; you could give yourself a chance to really think about the situation knowing that she is somewhere taken care of. *hugs*
@poeticdragon - how great that you have family that might be willing to help you figure out the problem! The last thing any of us dog lovers want to do is give up on our furry friends. I've always been big on finding the facts and getting to the bottom of an issue... it can drive you nuts sometimes but you're always happy in the end that you stuck it out!
Hoping Mosura pulls through and her issues are all related to something easy to fix!
@poeticdragon, So glad to hear Angi is coming home to recover. I was wondering what was the prognosis for Mosura since last November? I noticed you said you had her CERF done recently. I take it you still plan to breed her someday?
Comments
Saw the other vet and ruled out "democratic" mange or other mites with a scraping. So now Mosura has some steroids and other antibiotics. Will find out more on thyroid stuff later in the week. This vet thinks its sensitivity to fleas. I haven't seen any fleas but with switching everyone to Trifexis there was a period of time without preventative on all the animals. Had to wait for the old Interceptor/Advantix doses to be done. Anyway this was only last month, I think fleas could be a factor but not the only one. Maybe there is no one thing and it's a bunch of different things causing a chain reaction and difficult cycle to break.
New vet didn't want to do hypoallergenic food until she was satisfied it isn't fleas. Having a special food for only one of my dogs would be problematic too. We have to think how to manage that. Her food is okay, it's keeping her out of the others' food including the cat food, to prevent a flare up, that were going to have to figure out. Right now were going to try a different brand Mosura did fine on before though.
In regards to breeding her its not on my mind right now. I just want to get her well and know what the problem is. I don't believe spaying her as a shot in the dark is the way to go, however.
Anyway, I just commiserate. I felt so bad for her. We did everything to try to alleviate her problems including special foods, topical meds, frequent ear washing... There were up and downs. Ultimately things got better as she aged, but I understand the frustration of seeing your dog suffer and not being able to fix it. Hang in there.
But I take a pretty hardline on this. I have a dog with with genetic health issues, and I informed the breeder who acted like it couldn't be possible. Now the father is still showing and is likely being used as a stud, and I know quite well he carries the gene for micro, as it is recessive--both dam and sire had to carry it.
For what it's worth, she sounds pretty typical of fearful dogs. My girl Shiba can seem fine with people. and my vet didn't even believe she was fearful, because when she gets really scared, she just shuts down. I can see it--her tail is down and she is clingy--but not everyone recognizes that as her being really terrified.
anyway, it sucks all around and I hope you get some answers.
Though I was the one to bring up the possibility of a fearful dog, I'll also be one of the first to give imports a pass because there are so many things outside of a new owner's control that could have affected the dog. I've seen imported Jindos who were tail-plastered-to-belly shy but produced aloof dogs. Even two imports, one a tail-plastered shy dog and the other a people-shy dog, were bred together to produce one of the most lab-like temperaments I've seen. For domestic dogs, though, I wouldn't give the dog a pass.
For the skin issue, I would actually be on poeticdragon's side in finding out what is causing it and then making a decision based on it. Reaction to bacteria, yeast, fleas, or topicals are stuff I wouldn't eliminate a dog for.
The reproductive issue is the hardest issue in my viewpoint. You would need to know what is going on with JA as a breed, just like people needed to know what is going on with the Shikoku, to proceed with breeding abnormally cycling dogs or not. Ignoring it can hasten the end of a breed, but on the flip side, eliminating the chance for new blood and genetic diversity is going to lead to MHC/immune problems.
However, I pose this question....as a breeder one has to ask themselves, for how long, and how is/are the problematic issue(s) acceptable to potentially pass on given what this dog offers is merely a "chance" in helping genetic diversity, specifically when each issue in all likelihood will diminish that "chance" being a positive outcome long term. Really is this dog's health (with all neg issues) something that would benefit the U.S. stock as a whole? ....Given all the factors I think it would be a stretch to say that collectively it is. There is something to be said for the most viable animals reproducing. If health is not easily maintained why go there genetically hoping reproduction benefits the future population. The many "factors" (three that ayk mentions in particular) seem not to align very well in this case.
Food for thought in any case...
Snf
We get drops from the vet to put on Suki when he won't stop chewing- they taste horrible and break the habit.
Have you had all endocrines checked?
Have you gone raw yet? Do you clean your house and wash dog beds with anything more than white vinegar?
Have you tried NOT using a topical parasite treatment at all?
Have you gotten a second or third opinion?
I'm a diversity junkie and so my view is biased, but that could be the common link.
Snf
Ryan brings up some points that are important, but my god, can drive you nuts trying to figure out, so again, I can only imagine how frustrating this is. Because yeah, it could be fleas even though you haven't seen any. Or it could be that she's allergic or reacting to one of the topical treatments. Or it even could be she's reacting to a household cleaner or laundry soap. Or it could be a severe food allergy. Or it could be something else entirely. Or a mix. That's the real frustration with trying to figure out stuff like this.
I had a GSD like this years ago, and fwiw, we did several skin scrapes (our vet said sometimes you can miss mange, so might as well do it again). We checked for both types of mange. We thyroid tested him though he was very young at that stage (he later did have a seriously low thyroid but was ok at this time). We finally did allergy testing (blood, not skin test, which is not as accurate but was cheaper). He showed allergies to grains. We did an elimination diet finally. What we discovered through patching all this together was that he had problems with all grains, corn being the worst, but also even with rice. We went raw and he was in great shape til about 5 when the thyroid issue kicked in. But you know, I write that paragraph and it seems somewhat easy, but it was months and months of not knowing and it was frustrating as hell.
Don't feel guilty for having negative thoughts. I love Koda. He's my heart. My soulmate in so many ways. He calms me, and his presence in my life has made such a positive impact on who I am in building compassion, patience, and understanding. With that said, I've experienced the feelings that you have had towards Mosura. When Koda sprained his other knee in September, I had a horrible fleeting thought of how frustrating his leg problems are and how they are too much. I actually thought for a split second that maybe I should have just put him down. Immediately I felt regret. I couldn't believe that my mind actually went to that place, but we can't control our thoughts. I love him. I will fight for him to have a long and healthy life, but when your dog has health problems you know that it's a losing battle eventually. Koda will not live a long life like Mika or Mei. He will grow to be in pain when he's older, and I'm more mad at the situation than him. I hate that I'm going to lose him, or have to make the decision to put him down later. I think it's the situation that hardens your heart rather than the defenseless dog.
As far as the biting the butt fur. Mika bit all of her butt fur off before she started going into heat. My vet said that some females just do that.
I know you're not looking for advice, but support. I think it's good that you are seeking second opinions. If one vet doesn't know what's going on, then you should go to another one. Please keep us posted. I will keep both of you in my thoughts.
Every time I visit this vet I feel a lot more positive though. Both doctors (the repro specialist and the new one I met Sunday) are very optimistic and knowledgeable. They're not dismissive of my concerns, but they help shed light on just how much I blow things out of proportion by freaking out. I feel so much more rational when I talk to them and the dire things that I stress about seem so much simpler and more trivial. There is nothing dishonest or intentionally exaggerated in any of my posts, but the emotional content and high level of stress I was under at the time does color the situation. So above all else, I must remember to listen to and trust the professionals whom I entrust with my dogs' health and wellbeing. I just wish I could get this calmed feeling without the vet bill.
COI stands for coefficient of inbreeding. It is a measure of the probability that two genes at any locus are identical by descent from a duplicate ancestor.
Hoping Mosura pulls through and her issues are all related to something easy to fix!
So glad to hear Angi is coming home to recover.
I was wondering what was the prognosis for Mosura since last November? I noticed you said you had her CERF done recently. I take it you still plan to breed her someday?