These dogs were bred to hunt. If you don't like hunting dogs, none of these breeds are right for you, nor should any breeder trust you with one. Go find a Labrador puppy. Oh wait... that's a hunting dog too. :P
I know you are in college, and its natural for many to be this way at that age, but dont get blinded by idealism and absolutes... There is stuff to learn from anyone. Part of growing up is learning to be comfortable with the fact that not everything makes sense, almost nothing is pure and to learn to be comfortable with your own and others' inconsistencies, ambiguities and logic/feelings not lining up. ("I *know * this but I still *feel* that anyway...") and the other word I cant find right now that means when you feel two ways about a thing? dichotomous maybe...hmm)
Its okay if you dont approve of hunting with dogs yourself, but consider that we are all here to share and a hunter may know (for one example) health or structural aspects of a dogs physical being that a pet owner may not, a hunter may know how to assess temperament of a dog that can work while highly excited and not lose his mind. A hunter may have dogs with excellent recall or have great management of a multiple dog home to share. Or know of a product or a book that will help you as a pet owner.
You dont have to hunt or eat venison, and I dont have to do dog shows or breed dogs or knit sweaters for dog that never leave the couch, but you'd do yourself and your dogs a disservice if you dismiss the knowledge offered by all these experienced, smart, kind people on the basis of their dogs' work, sports and hobbies. This is a positive training community, and you will not see cruelty tolerated here, and misguided training techniques and theories debunked. Our hunters are valuable community members here, but owners of any kind who alpha roll, or physically intimidate dogs are not tolerated. Dont think that hunting must = cruelty, it doesn't. You also dont have to do anything you read about here. Know yourself honestly, and know the dog you have (or will have!) in the moment. Keep an open mind!
I thought that JA were the one NK not really bred for hunting? Can someone correct me if I'm wrong?
Given the background of most NK, I consider those who hunt responsibly as contributing in no small part to breed preservation. If no one wanted to hunt with these dogs I doubt that they would have survived to this day and age or would be currently crippled by lack of genetic diversity (a concern that still looms over some of the breeds regardless).
Some might argue that what we know as Akita today have nothing to do with Matagi dogs, that either JA or AA were breeds perfected in the 20th century, etc... IMHO the link below offers a more balanced view:
Speaking of hunting with dogs does anyone here have any tips on training a Kai to become used to firearms. I hope to be getting one soon and have read that they can be skittish. Should I take him/her out to the range with me and start with something small like my .22 then keep moving up in caliber?
Speaking of hunting with dogs does anyone here have any tips on training a Kai to become used to firearms. I hope to be getting one soon and have read that they can be skittish. Should I take him/her out to the range with me and start with something small like my .22 then keep moving up in caliber?
Look up some of Dave's (dlroberts) older posts....he trained his Kai, Tyson, as a bird dog.
I don't wish to get into a discussion about hunting with dogs though. I'll still listen to everyones advice and experiences.
Maybe I jumped the gun a little bit. Probably because I´m not used to hunters/hunting at all, I did not mean to insult anyone. I definitely did not mean to say that anyone treats his dog wrong.
I apologize and will focus on finding the right breeder for me. Thanks again people!
I don't get it why even bring up the whole hunter thing? No one here who posted here yet has hunted with their dogs.. I could be wrong on that, but still.
Not all hunters who use dogs for hunting are bad and evil. I know some who treat their dog like partner and the dog lives in the house with the kids and family. There are bad hunters out there sure, but there are good ones too who care about their dogs.
I believe hunters here on this forum are the kind that treats their dogs well.
Like shibamistress said only you know if you have the time to work and socialize a puppy.
If you feel you can handle and socialize your puppy then it's your call people here are just giving their advice and some experience on the matter.
Nihon ken need a lot of socialization with people of all age, race and gender, and dogs.
@mike87 Your apartment looks like a typical Japanese sized place and this is why the small toy breeds are so popular in Japan and the NK breeds are not. The biggest thing I would worry about is your next move. I am moving back to Canada and it has been really hard to find any dog friendly places and even those which are won't accept big dogs. Having said that I can understand your impatience, I have waited over a year and am moving half way around the world so I can have my dog.
I know that the decision to wait has be made, but I thought I'd add this: I would never get an Akita unless I owned my own home or did not anticipate moving anywhere but into my own house. I've done a lot of looking at apartments lately, because we may well move soon. Finding an apartment for a dog that weighs less than 20 lbs is easy but I've never found one that would accept an Akita, both because of size and because they're almost always on apartment ban lists.
My point is that I really wouldn't get an Akita until you're in a position where you're unlikely to be looking for a new apartment during the life of the dog, because it will be very hard, and possibly impossible, to find one that takes the dog if you have to move.
Akitas make great apartment dogs. You're right about finding a complex that does not have them on the banned list though. Mine is okay but my last two didn't let me take ninja.
Hey Mike! Welcome to the forum! I'd definitely recommend waiting. I'm 26 and just now getting back into school to finish my 2 year degree, followed by 4 year degree. So I'm in a situation that is similar to yours.
Apartment: That seems rather crowded for you, your girlfriend, and an Akita. If it were just you and the Akita then I'd say that's a decent space.
School + Work: A puppy is INTENSE work. I was wanting a puppy (9 weeks old) until my sister had her's and I saw how much energy and time it took to raise it. She could never go out with her friends, could never go out to parties unless she had someone watching the puppy, and when she was at work she had to come home on lunch breaks to let him out to use the bathroom. It's almost like having a human baby! So if you don't have time for a human baby then don't get a puppy. One thing you could consider though is getting an adolescent dog (6 months - 1 1/2 years) since they will already be house trained and be able to take care of themselves for the hours while you're at work or out to dinner with friends/gf.
Money: The little things add up. I didn't keep track of how much money I was spending on my Kai when I first got her, but $20-35/month for heartworm & flea medication + dog food + chew toys + treats + dog bed + crate + a good harness + a good leash + vaccinations add up faster than you think! My first dog (foster Shiba) was really picky about his treats and I ended up spending $75 in one month just getting different treats to finally found one that he liked!
So if you have significant doubts or questions right now as to whether you're ready for the puppy then it's better off to not get a puppy right now. Or if you feel like you're ready in most aspects except for having the time to let a puppy out every 30 minutes to 2 hours then you should definitely consider getting a young dog or adult! There are plenty out there that need homes too. I got my Kai when she was 6 months old and we have a great relationship! She just turned 1 year old and is strongly bonded to me. She is definitely "my" dog and we have a lot of trust in eachother to the point where I can go hiking with her off-leash and she will stay with me (she will also run to me for safety if something makes her nervous).
As for the hunting, I know you said you didn't want to start a whole debate on it and that's cool. But I just wanted to give you some perspective on the two aspects that are most likely unappealing to you. Ethics: If you already eat meat then the animals that became that meat have lived a much more stressful and distressing life than any deer or boar taken by a hunter. As long as that deer/boar is respected and used to the best of the hunter's ability then that is the most ethical and moral method of being a carnivore. Canine welfare: Nihon Ken are hunting dogs by breed. While their prey instinct can be redirected into toys, a Shiba or Kishu will be most in it's element while in pursuit of something that it wants to sink it's teeth into. That's one of the major reasons that Lure Coursing is enjoyed by many dogs. Men have also been hunting with dogs since they were domesticated, hunting is also one of the most primal things that man can still do. So combine the intense bond that we get with our faithful companion with the uncomplicated act of hunting and you have a very uncomplicated exercise. It's just you and your dog, pitting yourselves against nature, where you either come home with food for the table or with empty hands. I would imagine it is a very fulfilling experience to be sharing that kind of trust and bond with your dog, having to act as a team and trusting in each other to work together.
@poeticdragon@rikusmom - thanks for the info on the Japanese Akita! The little bit I know is general knowledge on reconstruction. Also anecdotally (based on skimming here and a few folks I know who owned them) they seemed the least drivey of the NKs. Good to know. I was gifted with a copy of Dog Man by a friend who dogsat for us once. I currently have about 2000+ books I own (more on kindle) and um...I haven't gotten to all of them yet. I'll try to move it up the queue though!
@mike87 - glad people can help in the decision making process. I think we all saw that you didn't want to argue about it but got a bit distracted because it seemed to come from left field. Some of our best informed and helpful posters are active hunters and the aside came across as dismissive. There's probably a bit of reflexive defense happening as a gesture of support. Sorry!
So I have been reading everyone's reactions and I think I need to explain why I said what I said about hunting.
There is a huge cultural diference between the US and NL. Hunting is something that isn't done here. People don't go out hunting for fun, it's even illegal to do that without some kind of official permission. Also we don't own firearms and having one animal hunt another is quickly associated with animal cruelty overhere.
BUT I shouldnt have mentioned it on this forum and I definitely shouldn't have implied that some of you aren't looking after the wellbeing of your dogs, that's not fair. I know now that some of you are active hunters and I understand it can be a really good bonding experience between man and dog.
On the topic of moving and dogs being accepted into the new home.: I guess I'm lucky because I have never heard of dogs not being accepted anywhere, except for when pets are prohibited in general. This really is not going to be a problem.
@Mike87 - In regards to where dogs are accepted in apartments / houses, I think this is a cultural thing. In the US, many apartments & houses don't allow certain breeds, or, even if a dog is over a specific size.
That said, in answer to your original question...only you can decide whether or not you are ready. Personally, even though I was in school, my husband was working. Plus, he worked / works from home, & most of my classes were online. Thus, adding a puppy wasn't really a big deal.
If we had both been in school, that probably would've been a different story.
If you have the time, the finances, the space, & the ability to take care of this dog for the next 10-20 years...go for it! If not, wait a while. ~
Wow that's really interesting. I figured NL would be a very hunting friendly place, considering how much forest and undeveloped land you have there. You're fine mentioning it by the way, this is a place for discussion after all. If you're not sure of the reasoning someone has for what they do with their dogs then definitely ask
After skimming through this thread, the one comment that came out to me is @sangmort's
That said, in answer to your original question...only you can decide whether or not you are ready.
I did a lot of soul searching a little over a week ago and then some reaching out in the Shiba forum and FB on adding a 2nd dog to my household. We had a 13.5 month old Shiba that overall has been a great dog, but he has (had? read on) a huge lack of focus when he wants to play; therefore, is (was?) totally un-reliable off leash and at the time I was working on my decision he had not decided I was the most interesting thing to bond with in all situations.
The issue I had is I knew I had to make a quick decisive decision because the 2nd dog that had peeked our interest was a 3.5 month mix breed puppy in the rescue system. I knew he could find a good home, but I knew the decision would go fast and that it could be a long time before ever having an opportunity to find/help a puppy in the rescue system that more than likely had a spitz breed (Shiba? Akita? can't really tell) in him. I also knew after a lot of education through the forums that our 2nd dog would either be a rescue situation or a very reputable breeder, my husband was leaning towards wanting to have our expansion be from helping a rescue but he also wanted a young rescue. We also were wrestling with the best time to introduce our 13.5 month old Shiba to the concept of living in a multiple dog home and our gut kept telling us we should do it before he fully matured at 2 years.
The majority of advice I received was the cautionary "wait" and like you I think I was hoping for a resounding "go for it" response, so felt troubled by the reinforcement of the small nagging "wait" voice I had started with before posting the question.
The reason I tell you all this is our guts and a few people who actually knew me, my husband, and my Shiba in person (even trained with us) felt it was the right time to add a 2nd dog. We went with our gut and started the process. We got lucky in that the foster family really thought we would be the best fit of all the applications coming in, but instead of making us make a firm yes/no decision, she allowed us a trial period to assure there wouldn't be issues at home we couldn't deal with. It has all worked out great, but again, only we could decide.
Our decision to go for it did have a very positive impact on our first Shiba, he seems to have a new focus to work with me and seems to have better recall (probably because his new younger brother has great recall and he finds his younger brother so interesting). It has actually been so far a very good decision we made despite the "wait" advice. Again though only we could tell in our guts and really only those who personally knew us and our first dog were in the best position to advise. I appreciated all the "wait" advice though as it did assure we continued to think through everything.
Sometimes I think people (myself a lot of times) get caught in paralysis by analysis. Life will always be changing, there will always be an argument that can be found to wait, so only you will really know when the time is right.
The only thing I would say if I was giving advice, since you referred to it, I think being financially stable is extremely important, so that aspect when I read your question made my gut tell you to "wait".
Make sure you really have understood the cost you really need to plan for monthly in the first few years for food, treats, routine vet visits, spay/neuter (if you go that route), health check-ups, toys, and training. These basics should never have to become part of a financial priority check list due to strained resources.
For me, I found my first Shiba added an average of $200 or more per month so far to my monthly expenditures .... hard for me to go into a pet store and not buy at least 1 or 2 toys a month at $10-$15/month (say $25/month) and some chew things (antlers, beef tracheas, meaty bones, ect so say another $25/month) -- these sneak through your wallet without much thought ... I also believe highly in formal training classes once a week (just like schooling a child) which adds another $20-$25 a week for each class (so about $100/month) ... already that is $150/month before dog food and treats. Then you have crates, beds, collars, leashes (not one but a few different lengths for different walking/training purposes), tag licenses, routine vet visits for vaccines, ect that while not monthly costs really add to the financial burden early.
Again though, really only you are going to know if it is right. And because you stated that once you commit you will commit no matter what life changes, it is important you know you are ready. Even if everyone here had said "go for it", only you can know if that is right.
There is never the perfect time to get a puppy. Puppies are a lot of work no matter where you are in your life. Just like having a kid. At the end of the day the real question is: are you willing to make sure you give 110% to raising and caring for your pup no matter your circumstances. Which sometimes means making hard choices and enduring some humility.
WRT to hunting in NL, all that is required is a hunting license and a gun permit , just like in the US.
I don't think we can say "wait" or "do it". There are so many options. If you have the time, money, energy, etc. then why should you wait? But... If you do not know if you will have the time, money, etc. maybe you should wait until you are confident that you can properly and completely care for a dog for his/her entire life.
having one animal hunt another is quickly associated with animal cruelty overhere.
After reading the above post you made, here is something else to keep in mind: These dogs have high prey drive. They will have the desire to hunt with or without their owners desire/training to do so. If you are uncomfortable with one animal killing another then NK may not be the right choice for you. There is a high probability that your NK will hunt and kill a squirrel/rabbit/rat/chipmunk etc. and possibly even leave you the carcass as a 'present'. It is just the way it is.....
Are you sure this is the breed for you? I'm a little concerned about this for you and your future Akita..... I am not sure it would be a good match. This just my opinion but please think about this seriously and thoroughly. Consider all information, pros and cons and the breed overall...... You can't take the instincts out of the dog.... they are the way they are and you would have to accept it and live with it for the length of your dogs life.
What is it about the Akita that drew you to this point? What are you hoping for in a dog?
I still strongly believe that since the OP objects to hunting he shouldn't be considering a hunting breed. Period. Back-peddling and making excuses doesn't change anything. Puppy buyers need to select a breed that fits their lifestyle and ideals, not in spite of what the dog was bred to do but because of those breed traits. Don't choose a dog that was bred to do a job and then hope for a dog that doesn't live up to its purpose. Don't treat any intended aspect of a breed as a flaw you're willing to tolerate or overlook. Don't settle for a dog with traits that don't fit you just because you think it looks cool or rare or unique. Love the whole package or find a different breed. Dogs deserve to be loved in their entirety.
Breeders need to be willing to say "no" when a buyer is clearly a poor match for a breed. We hear it a lot in Akitas, but I assume it holds true for all Nihon Ken: these dogs are not for everyone.
The OP has a moral objection to hunting. When one has a moral objection to the method/reason something is made (in this case, dogs being bred), yet still uses/purchases the item (or animal), it is called hypocrisy.
PS: I hunt with my dogs and I take offence to your comments.
You shouldn't. As I already stated I didn't know enough about hunting to judge anyone about it.
I still strongly believe that since the OP objects to hunting he shouldn't be considering a hunting breed. Period. Back-peddling and making excuses doesn't change anything.
I'm not backpeddling, I was trying to eplain myself and stop people from being offended, obviously it didn't work.
Are you saying I shouldn't get a dog at all? I know dogs hunt. They all evolved from the wolf. I also know NK are still hunting breeds. Does that seriously mean that if I don't go out to actively hunt with them I shouldn't get one? If that's the case I know a lot of people who are great owners but apparently shouldn't have a NK. The fact I don't like hunting doesn't mean I'm going to sit inside all day and only let my dog go outside for 5 minutes.
I know he might catch the occasional rabbit (won't be a squirell, we don't have those) and probably kill it. My cats catch mice once in a while. All I'm saying is I don't want to (and am not allowed to) hunt with a dog. I will, however make sure the dog is well exercised.
I promise to discuss this topic with every breeder I'm going to visit. If one of them says I'm a bad fit, I'll accept that.
On the topic of training: We have a great dogtraining center nearby which everone in NL knows. I've allready decided a long time ago that if I will do this (regardless of breed) I will follow every step of the training programs I can possibly follow. Which is going to be expensive, I know, been saving up for those kind of things.
What is it about the Akita that drew you to this point? What are you hoping for in a dog?
I want a dog that can guard me, that I can bond with and I can go on a long run with. I have a lot of reasons but I don't feel like explaining myself on "why I want one", but just to be clear: the moment I wanted an Akita was long before I saw "Hachiko" or read "dog man". I don't want a dog "because I saw it in a movie once."
Please try not to be offended, that is no one's intent here. We are all on this forum because we really care for the NK breeds. Ultimately, it is up to you to decide if now is the time for a dog, and if the Akita is right for you.
No one is implying you must hunt with one of these dogs. It is, however, important to recognize that a hunting breed is going to be different from a herding breed, a guardian breed, or whatever you wish to compare it to. These dogs have been used for hunting not far back in their history, so they are going to have more drive and intensity than a pet-bred Golden Retriever, Lab, or Poodle. Not all breeds or even individual dogs are created equal.
It is true that there will probably never be a perfect time to bring a puppy into your life. But again, you know your situation better than anyone on an Internet forum possibly could. The most important factors in my opinion are financial stability (puppies are expensive, and are you prepared for emergencies?) and having time to invest.
No, I am not saying you must hunt. I don't hunt. Many NK owners don't hunt.
I am saying you need to seriously and honestly evaluate whether any NK breed is right for you, and I do not think you've done that at all. Also, read the rest of the post.
some breeds have been selected for companionship for just about ever. I think Claire is very wise to point out that you should choose the breed that already has the traits you are seeking and not so much of the traits you dont desire. You can bond with any breed, if yuo have shared expectations, abilities and enjoy the same activities. For example, if you are looking for a distance-running partner, there are breeds I'd put ahead of akita- such a rhodesian ridgebacks, dalmatians, pointers.
"Guard" is pretty serious business. If you're talking about a dog that will bark-alert when something out of the ordinary at home, you're set. If you're talking about Schutzhund training, they might be too independent/cat-like for hard core obedience. We have a Schutzhund training facility an hour away that primarily trains GSD. I've been there once to observe. It's choke chain/negative reinforcement type.
I know a runner/cyclist who got an Old English Golden Retriever, the breeder expressly say no running the dog for the first 2 years, he didn't listen, took her on 2-5 mile runs all the time. The poor pup developed hip dysplasia before it was 1.5. So make sure you check w/ your prospective breeder on whether or not long run is advised and at what age. @jellyfart runs w/ her Toki, I'm not sure if it qualifies as long run
Akitas are not long distance runners and they are not guard dogs.
I run with Toki but its only a few times a week and if we run on pavement, we usually run about 1-2 miles, but never more. If we run on trails, we run 3, but its a very seldom thing, maybe once a week. (Though ive been under a cold this entire last month, so not much running lately)
Akitas are watch dogs, not guard dogs. Their origional function was to bay the prey, ie: bark at it and keep it around so the hunter can come in to kill it.
That doesnt mean an instance of guarding wouldnt happen, but then that comes down to the fact that the dog is exceptionally loyal to you and understands that youre in danger or that the dog is so undersocialized that it has become a liabilty. Or both.
If you want a runner and like spitz breeds, consider one of the sled dogs. They love to run and can do it for hours. GSDs are one of the few breeds that can achieve a "flying trot" due to their rear leg assembly, but they're not built for long running either.
@Mike287 I haven't been a part of this thread, and I'm not going to get into the debate on hunting dogs.
You did say this though that struck me.
I want a dog that can guard me, that I can bond with and I can go on a long run with.
I don't think a JA is going to meet these requirements for you. My recommendation would be a German Shepherd for you.
A JA is not going to guard you. No way will one do that. They may bark if someone comes to your house, but that's about it. A JA will also not be able to run with you. I am a runner, and a JA is probably the last dog I would choose as a running partner. They just aren't built for it. I love JA's, but for my lifestyle, they aren't the best dog for me. Maybe in the future, my hobbies and life will be different and I will consider one, but right now just isn't the time.
My recommendation for a GSD comes from extensive knowledge of the breed. My grandmother bred GSD's, and had around 20 at a time living on her farm. As a child, we had 5 who lived with us at one time or another.
As far as guarding and running with a GSD, us kids used to take the horses into the redwood forest. This was almost daily. My grandmother always made sure that we had at least 3-5 GSD's with us. There are mountain lions in the forest, and the horses would spook if they felt threatened. The GSD's were amazing guard dogs. They would never let anything near us. The horses also felt more at ease with them there.
These dogs would run alongside the horses for hours with minimal breaks while we rode. My grandmother didn't breed a-frame GSD's. They were very healthy dogs with no genetic health issues such as dysplasia or knee problems. You would need to find a breeder who does health checks, as you would need to with a JA.
Secondly on guarding. One time my baby cousin and I were at my aunt's house in Eureka. We were on her front lawn when a man pulled up in a car and began speaking to us. My aunt was on the 3rd floor of the house looking out the window when she saw him. She freaked out. She wouldn't be able to get down in time to save us if he wanted to snatch us up. Well low and behold our GSD came flying over the fence and charged the man. That's one hell of a guard dog. No one was getting near his people. Sorry, but in my opinion a JA would never do that for you.
I've also had a Rott who overly guarded me. Rott's are great guard dogs, but not long distance runners, although I think they are probably more equipped to run than JA's.
Comments
EDIT: @violet_in_seville Japanese Akitas were also bred to hunt.
Its okay if you dont approve of hunting with dogs yourself, but consider that we are all here to share and a hunter may know (for one example) health or structural aspects of a dogs physical being that a pet owner may not, a hunter may know how to assess temperament of a dog that can work while highly excited and not lose his mind. A hunter may have dogs with excellent recall or have great management of a multiple dog home to share. Or know of a product or a book that will help you as a pet owner.
You dont have to hunt or eat venison, and I dont have to do dog shows or breed dogs or knit sweaters for dog that never leave the couch, but you'd do yourself and your dogs a disservice if you dismiss the knowledge offered by all these experienced, smart, kind people on the basis of their dogs' work, sports and hobbies. This is a positive training community, and you will not see cruelty tolerated here, and misguided training techniques and theories debunked. Our hunters are valuable community members here, but owners of any kind who alpha roll, or physically intimidate dogs are not tolerated. Dont think that hunting must = cruelty, it doesn't. You also dont have to do anything you read about here. Know yourself honestly, and know the dog you have (or will have!) in the moment. Keep an open mind!
You gotta read Dog Man, it's about the breeder who saved the JA from near extinction back after WWII and his relationship hunting w/ a Matagi
http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Man-Uncommon-Faraway-Mountain/dp/1594201242/
Some might argue that what we know as Akita today have nothing to do with Matagi dogs, that either JA or AA were breeds perfected in the 20th century, etc... IMHO the link below offers a more balanced view:
http://www.nosferatuakitas.co.uk/akita.html
Not all hunters who use dogs for hunting are bad and evil. I know some who treat their dog like partner and the dog lives in the house with the kids and family. There are bad hunters out there sure, but there are good ones too who care about their dogs.
I believe hunters here on this forum are the kind that treats their dogs well.
Like shibamistress said only you know if you have the time to work and socialize a puppy.
If you feel you can handle and socialize your puppy then it's your call people here are just giving their advice and some experience on the matter.
Nihon ken need a lot of socialization with people of all age, race and gender, and dogs.
My point is that I really wouldn't get an Akita until you're in a position where you're unlikely to be looking for a new apartment during the life of the dog, because it will be very hard, and possibly impossible, to find one that takes the dog if you have to move.
Apartment: That seems rather crowded for you, your girlfriend, and an Akita. If it were just you and the Akita then I'd say that's a decent space.
School + Work: A puppy is INTENSE work. I was wanting a puppy (9 weeks old) until my sister had her's and I saw how much energy and time it took to raise it. She could never go out with her friends, could never go out to parties unless she had someone watching the puppy, and when she was at work she had to come home on lunch breaks to let him out to use the bathroom. It's almost like having a human baby! So if you don't have time for a human baby then don't get a puppy. One thing you could consider though is getting an adolescent dog (6 months - 1 1/2 years) since they will already be house trained and be able to take care of themselves for the hours while you're at work or out to dinner with friends/gf.
Money: The little things add up. I didn't keep track of how much money I was spending on my Kai when I first got her, but $20-35/month for heartworm & flea medication + dog food + chew toys + treats + dog bed + crate + a good harness + a good leash + vaccinations add up faster than you think! My first dog (foster Shiba) was really picky about his treats and I ended up spending $75 in one month just getting different treats to finally found one that he liked!
So if you have significant doubts or questions right now as to whether you're ready for the puppy then it's better off to not get a puppy right now. Or if you feel like you're ready in most aspects except for having the time to let a puppy out every 30 minutes to 2 hours then you should definitely consider getting a young dog or adult! There are plenty out there that need homes too. I got my Kai when she was 6 months old and we have a great relationship! She just turned 1 year old and is strongly bonded to me. She is definitely "my" dog and we have a lot of trust in eachother to the point where I can go hiking with her off-leash and she will stay with me (she will also run to me for safety if something makes her nervous).
As for the hunting, I know you said you didn't want to start a whole debate on it and that's cool. But I just wanted to give you some perspective on the two aspects that are most likely unappealing to you.
Ethics: If you already eat meat then the animals that became that meat have lived a much more stressful and distressing life than any deer or boar taken by a hunter. As long as that deer/boar is respected and used to the best of the hunter's ability then that is the most ethical and moral method of being a carnivore.
Canine welfare: Nihon Ken are hunting dogs by breed. While their prey instinct can be redirected into toys, a Shiba or Kishu will be most in it's element while in pursuit of something that it wants to sink it's teeth into. That's one of the major reasons that Lure Coursing is enjoyed by many dogs. Men have also been hunting with dogs since they were domesticated, hunting is also one of the most primal things that man can still do. So combine the intense bond that we get with our faithful companion with the uncomplicated act of hunting and you have a very uncomplicated exercise. It's just you and your dog, pitting yourselves against nature, where you either come home with food for the table or with empty hands. I would imagine it is a very fulfilling experience to be sharing that kind of trust and bond with your dog, having to act as a team and trusting in each other to work together.
@mike87 - glad people can help in the decision making process. I think we all saw that you didn't want to argue about it but got a bit distracted because it seemed to come from left field. Some of our best informed and helpful posters are active hunters and the aside came across as dismissive. There's probably a bit of reflexive defense happening as a gesture of support. Sorry!
There is a huge cultural diference between the US and NL. Hunting is something that isn't done here. People don't go out hunting for fun, it's even illegal to do that without some kind of official permission. Also we don't own firearms and having one animal hunt another is quickly associated with animal cruelty overhere.
BUT I shouldnt have mentioned it on this forum and I definitely shouldn't have implied that some of you aren't looking after the wellbeing of your dogs, that's not fair. I know now that some of you are active hunters and I understand it can be a really good bonding experience between man and dog.
On the topic of moving and dogs being accepted into the new home.: I guess I'm lucky because I have never heard of dogs not being accepted anywhere, except for when pets are prohibited in general. This really is not going to be a problem.
That said, in answer to your original question...only you can decide whether or not you are ready. Personally, even though I was in school, my husband was working. Plus, he worked / works from home, & most of my classes were online. Thus, adding a puppy wasn't really a big deal.
If we had both been in school, that probably would've been a different story.
If you have the time, the finances, the space, & the ability to take care of this dog for the next 10-20 years...go for it! If not, wait a while.
RE: NL being hunting friendly, the image of a pug, the official dog of the House of Orange, comes mind :-)
My guess is hunting used to be restricted to the kings and nobility who owned the land [and the animals who came along w/ it]?
The issue I had is I knew I had to make a quick decisive decision because the 2nd dog that had peeked our interest was a 3.5 month mix breed puppy in the rescue system. I knew he could find a good home, but I knew the decision would go fast and that it could be a long time before ever having an opportunity to find/help a puppy in the rescue system that more than likely had a spitz breed (Shiba? Akita? can't really tell) in him. I also knew after a lot of education through the forums that our 2nd dog would either be a rescue situation or a very reputable breeder, my husband was leaning towards wanting to have our expansion be from helping a rescue but he also wanted a young rescue. We also were wrestling with the best time to introduce our 13.5 month old Shiba to the concept of living in a multiple dog home and our gut kept telling us we should do it before he fully matured at 2 years.
The majority of advice I received was the cautionary "wait" and like you I think I was hoping for a resounding "go for it" response, so felt troubled by the reinforcement of the small nagging "wait" voice I had started with before posting the question.
The reason I tell you all this is our guts and a few people who actually knew me, my husband, and my Shiba in person (even trained with us) felt it was the right time to add a 2nd dog. We went with our gut and started the process. We got lucky in that the foster family really thought we would be the best fit of all the applications coming in, but instead of making us make a firm yes/no decision, she allowed us a trial period to assure there wouldn't be issues at home we couldn't deal with. It has all worked out great, but again, only we could decide.
Our decision to go for it did have a very positive impact on our first Shiba, he seems to have a new focus to work with me and seems to have better recall (probably because his new younger brother has great recall and he finds his younger brother so interesting). It has actually been so far a very good decision we made despite the "wait" advice. Again though only we could tell in our guts and really only those who personally knew us and our first dog were in the best position to advise. I appreciated all the "wait" advice though as it did assure we continued to think through everything.
Sometimes I think people (myself a lot of times) get caught in paralysis by analysis. Life will always be changing, there will always be an argument that can be found to wait, so only you will really know when the time is right.
The only thing I would say if I was giving advice, since you referred to it, I think being financially stable is extremely important, so that aspect when I read your question made my gut tell you to "wait".
Make sure you really have understood the cost you really need to plan for monthly in the first few years for food, treats, routine vet visits, spay/neuter (if you go that route), health check-ups, toys, and training. These basics should never have to become part of a financial priority check list due to strained resources.
For me, I found my first Shiba added an average of $200 or more per month so far to my monthly expenditures .... hard for me to go into a pet store and not buy at least 1 or 2 toys a month at $10-$15/month (say $25/month) and some chew things (antlers, beef tracheas, meaty bones, ect so say another $25/month) -- these sneak through your wallet without much thought ... I also believe highly in formal training classes once a week (just like schooling a child) which adds another $20-$25 a week for each class (so about $100/month) ... already that is $150/month before dog food and treats. Then you have crates, beds, collars, leashes (not one but a few different lengths for different walking/training purposes), tag licenses, routine vet visits for vaccines, ect that while not monthly costs really add to the financial burden early.
Again though, really only you are going to know if it is right. And because you stated that once you commit you will commit no matter what life changes, it is important you know you are ready. Even if everyone here had said "go for it", only you can know if that is right.
WRT to hunting in NL, all that is required is a hunting license and a gun permit , just like in the US.
Seems there is a nice hunting community in NL: http://www.wbesusterengraetheide.nl/Hunting in the Netherlands.htm
However hunting with "hounds" is not allowed.
PS: I hunt with my dogs and I take offence to your comments.
If you have the time, money, energy, etc. then why should you wait?
But...
If you do not know if you will have the time, money, etc. maybe you should wait until you are confident that you can properly and completely care for a dog for his/her entire life. After reading the above post you made, here is something else to keep in mind:
These dogs have high prey drive. They will have the desire to hunt with or without their owners desire/training to do so. If you are uncomfortable with one animal killing another then NK may not be the right choice for you. There is a high probability that your NK will hunt and kill a squirrel/rabbit/rat/chipmunk etc. and possibly even leave you the carcass as a 'present'. It is just the way it is.....
Are you sure this is the breed for you? I'm a little concerned about this for you and your future Akita..... I am not sure it would be a good match. This just my opinion but please think about this seriously and thoroughly. Consider all information, pros and cons and the breed overall...... You can't take the instincts out of the dog.... they are the way they are and you would have to accept it and live with it for the length of your dogs life.
What is it about the Akita that drew you to this point? What are you hoping for in a dog?
Breeders need to be willing to say "no" when a buyer is clearly a poor match for a breed. We hear it a lot in Akitas, but I assume it holds true for all Nihon Ken: these dogs are not for everyone.
The OP has a moral objection to hunting. When one has a moral objection to the method/reason something is made (in this case, dogs being bred), yet still uses/purchases the item (or animal), it is called hypocrisy.
Are you saying I shouldn't get a dog at all? I know dogs hunt. They all evolved from the wolf. I also know NK are still hunting breeds. Does that seriously mean that if I don't go out to actively hunt with them I shouldn't get one? If that's the case I know a lot of people who are great owners but apparently shouldn't have a NK.
The fact I don't like hunting doesn't mean I'm going to sit inside all day and only let my dog go outside for 5 minutes.
I know he might catch the occasional rabbit (won't be a squirell, we don't have those) and probably kill it. My cats catch mice once in a while. All I'm saying is I don't want to (and am not allowed to) hunt with a dog. I will, however make sure the dog is well exercised.
I promise to discuss this topic with every breeder I'm going to visit. If one of them says I'm a bad fit, I'll accept that.
On the topic of training: We have a great dogtraining center nearby which everone in NL knows. I've allready decided a long time ago that if I will do this (regardless of breed) I will follow every step of the training programs I can possibly follow. Which is going to be expensive, I know, been saving up for those kind of things. I want a dog that can guard me, that I can bond with and I can go on a long run with. I have a lot of reasons but I don't feel like explaining myself on "why I want one", but just to be clear: the moment I wanted an Akita was long before I saw "Hachiko" or read "dog man". I don't want a dog "because I saw it in a movie once."
Please try not to be offended, that is no one's intent here. We are all on this forum because we really care for the NK breeds. Ultimately, it is up to you to decide if now is the time for a dog, and if the Akita is right for you.
No one is implying you must hunt with one of these dogs. It is, however, important to recognize that a hunting breed is going to be different from a herding breed, a guardian breed, or whatever you wish to compare it to. These dogs have been used for hunting not far back in their history, so they are going to have more drive and intensity than a pet-bred Golden Retriever, Lab, or Poodle. Not all breeds or even individual dogs are created equal.
It is true that there will probably never be a perfect time to bring a puppy into your life. But again, you know your situation better than anyone on an Internet forum possibly could. The most important factors in my opinion are financial stability (puppies are expensive, and are you prepared for emergencies?) and having time to invest.
I am saying you need to seriously and honestly evaluate whether any NK breed is right for you, and I do not think you've done that at all. Also, read the rest of the post.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090606101720AAni7ZV
"Guard" is pretty serious business. If you're talking about a dog that will bark-alert when something out of the ordinary at home, you're set. If you're talking about Schutzhund training, they might be too independent/cat-like for hard core obedience. We have a Schutzhund training facility an hour away that primarily trains GSD. I've been there once to observe. It's choke chain/negative reinforcement type.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070522040021AAEwfZg
I know a runner/cyclist who got an Old English Golden Retriever, the breeder expressly say no running the dog for the first 2 years, he didn't listen, took her on 2-5 mile runs all the time. The poor pup developed hip dysplasia before it was 1.5. So make sure you check w/ your prospective breeder on whether or not long run is advised and at what age. @jellyfart runs w/ her Toki, I'm not sure if it qualifies as long run
To train dogs to be guard dogs, people often use punishment based methods. That wont work on an akita and could end up in a bite situation.
Please seriously consider what is important to you in a dog.
The hunting comment you have made doesnt bother me. The latter about wanting a guard dog does.
I run with Toki but its only a few times a week and if we run on pavement, we usually run about 1-2 miles, but never more. If we run on trails, we run 3, but its a very seldom thing, maybe once a week. (Though ive been under a cold this entire last month, so not much running lately)
Akitas are watch dogs, not guard dogs. Their origional function was to bay the prey, ie: bark at it and keep it around so the hunter can come in to kill it.
That doesnt mean an instance of guarding wouldnt happen, but then that comes down to the fact that the dog is exceptionally loyal to you and understands that youre in danger or that the dog is so undersocialized that it has become a liabilty. Or both.
You did say this though that struck me. I don't think a JA is going to meet these requirements for you. My recommendation would be a German Shepherd for you.
A JA is not going to guard you. No way will one do that. They may bark if someone comes to your house, but that's about it. A JA will also not be able to run with you. I am a runner, and a JA is probably the last dog I would choose as a running partner. They just aren't built for it. I love JA's, but for my lifestyle, they aren't the best dog for me. Maybe in the future, my hobbies and life will be different and I will consider one, but right now just isn't the time.
My recommendation for a GSD comes from extensive knowledge of the breed. My grandmother bred GSD's, and had around 20 at a time living on her farm. As a child, we had 5 who lived with us at one time or another.
As far as guarding and running with a GSD, us kids used to take the horses into the redwood forest. This was almost daily. My grandmother always made sure that we had at least 3-5 GSD's with us. There are mountain lions in the forest, and the horses would spook if they felt threatened. The GSD's were amazing guard dogs. They would never let anything near us. The horses also felt more at ease with them there.
These dogs would run alongside the horses for hours with minimal breaks while we rode. My grandmother didn't breed a-frame GSD's. They were very healthy dogs with no genetic health issues such as dysplasia or knee problems. You would need to find a breeder who does health checks, as you would need to with a JA.
Secondly on guarding. One time my baby cousin and I were at my aunt's house in Eureka. We were on her front lawn when a man pulled up in a car and began speaking to us. My aunt was on the 3rd floor of the house looking out the window when she saw him. She freaked out. She wouldn't be able to get down in time to save us if he wanted to snatch us up. Well low and behold our GSD came flying over the fence and charged the man. That's one hell of a guard dog. No one was getting near his people. Sorry, but in my opinion a JA would never do that for you.
I've also had a Rott who overly guarded me. Rott's are great guard dogs, but not long distance runners, although I think they are probably more equipped to run than JA's.
So that's my 2 cents on the topic.