Comparison of WSLaika & Kishu for home life and hunting
I've been somewhat following Brad and others experiences hunting and hiking with their dogs. It's really cool and I think Ren, with some training, would enjoy flushing small game such as pheasants, quail, other ground nesting birds, and small mammals. She loves the chase but loses interest when whatever it is she's chasing has stopped. At least for objects and toads anyways, which are the only things she's actually "caught". I reckon that hog or anything larger would be a poor fit for her.
I've been wanting to get into hog hunting for a while, but definitely won't be ready to involve a dog for several years. In the mean time it's been mostly just occasional reading and seeing what other people are up to.
To come to the point of the post, I've narrowed my interests to Laika, Kishu, and Karelian Bear Dogs. With Laika and Kishu being the mains and KBD being a "I've heard interesting things, but I don't really know much about them".
How would you Laika and Kishu owners describe your dogs, their hunting/hike styles (short/mid/long ranging, their tactics, etc), and how do they do at home? What would you consider a good home environment for them a yard + a few hunts per year or what sort of exercise/lifestyle would you recommend?
I've been wanting to get into hog hunting for a while, but definitely won't be ready to involve a dog for several years. In the mean time it's been mostly just occasional reading and seeing what other people are up to.
To come to the point of the post, I've narrowed my interests to Laika, Kishu, and Karelian Bear Dogs. With Laika and Kishu being the mains and KBD being a "I've heard interesting things, but I don't really know much about them".
How would you Laika and Kishu owners describe your dogs, their hunting/hike styles (short/mid/long ranging, their tactics, etc), and how do they do at home? What would you consider a good home environment for them a yard + a few hunts per year or what sort of exercise/lifestyle would you recommend?
Comments
There are tons of laika people on there who can help you with the laika aspect, but Brad is the only person I know who owns both a laika and kishu.
I really like the laika, maybe it's because they look similar to shikokus.
I like the Kishu because they are close to mid range hunters, they are great family dogs, not too hard to train to hunt, you don't need a big pack (1 good dog will do the job), and not too hard to own. Because they are hunting dogs, they do need a good amount of dedicated exercise.
If your state allows year round hog hunting you need to hunt with your dog year round. The more hogs they hunt, the better they get. I'm guessing the Laika are more of a multi specie hunting dog so if you're looking for a dog that specializes in hogs the Kishu or any of the American hog dogs might be a better fit. Although I have seen some vids on Laika and they look like great hog hunting dogs.
In my experience hunting with Gen and Shigeru, and with Kishin, Kishu dont range too far *most* of the time, but they aren't stellar when it comes to recall... So, if they do range, it can be harder to get them back then a Laika IMHO.
Kishu can be used for other game too, but if you want a breed that is good for all types of game, a Laika is the way to go. Their versatility is hard to beat when it comes to hunting spitz.
Laika are WAY more biddable than Kishu IMHO. But Kishu are not as soft a Laiki are... So it's a tradeoff.
The one main difference between the dogs is "gameness". The Kishu is a "game" dog, Laika are far less "game". This means a Laika who wants to start a fight with other dogs, or who is fighting with a wild animal, can more easily be controlled than a Kishu, who can be VERY hard to "call off" under those circumstances.
I hope this helps.
I'm not sure how good the Goon-demon would be at hunting. I could see her chasing a LOT of trash, and her recall sucks. Also, she doesn't range close at all when she does go off-leash. She's a little too smart. You call her, she looks at you & you can see the cogs turning in her head..."Either I can go get that food, OR, I can keep walking to get to this awesome smell! ....hmm....SMELL!!!" & she takes off.
But, she does have over-the-top prey drive & that "not back down" instinct. She can be a total bitch with the other dogs tho even tho each dutchie is at least twice her weight she is constantly hurting them.
But, I think her prey drive might be too much at times. For example, if Fate is digging, she chases / fixates on the dirt, trying to catch it. Then, a bird will fly over head, & she'll start chasing that, [ even tho the bird is 500ft in the air ] halfway through that, a bug goes by & she switches gears and won't leave it alone no matter what.
She's kind of ADD mixed with OCD. LOL I think if we actually tried to hunt with her, she'd lead us all around the forest looking for random crap.
She's also very hard, as a rule. Loud sounds, yelling, other dogs nipping her, etc. doesn't bother her. Which is a blessing and a curse at the same time, as it can be hard to get her to back off.
She's a good pup tho. Just wish she wasn't such a picky pooper!!! lol [ & that she was more friendly with strangers, she's come a long way tho ] ~
I got Kilbe when she was four months old. She was "wild" to say the least. She didn't get along with Kaiju and Bea so it was a lot of separation management. However, there were times that they got along. Kilbe has a tendency to try to "avoid" fighting, but will not back down either. In an argument, it was always easier to distract her from it than the others.
I don't know if you plan on starting a family but Kilbe LOVES kids. She LOVED and doted upon every single one of my nieces and nephews. She was extremely biddable. She was a great house dog and not just a hunting dog. If Bea was so crazy, I would have still kept her!
@shishiinu Yeah Dragoon as some allergies going on too, so does my friends very white husky. Generally I see tons of white dogs with allergy issues. I'd even say a good 80% of the allergy dogs I saw as a vet tech were white dogs. Although they were mostly inbred wreckages like Bischons. I do think there's something about white coats that make them more susceptible to allergies though. For some reason I always waffled around on getting my hunting license, but it's a requirement for falconry so I'm getting one this year. That plus reading (Shigeru's blog?) the NK blog about shotgun hunting boar with his Kishu got me motivated to get off my butt and actually get things lined up this year to be able to go with my uncle this year for hog. Short-mid range is generally what I'd be wanting in a hunting dog. Both for mutual protection as well as teamwork.
@brada1878 Really interesting to hear the differences in the two! Hmm would you say Kishu are a bit more Shiba'ish when it comes to recall, where they'll check out what they want and then come back? When it comes to hunting having a more "game" dog seems like it'd be preferable. Especially for baying hogs. I've given up on dog parks anyways lol. Ren just likes to watch and Tsune was too prone to getting pissed when other dogs would "try" him by getting in his space and bumping him.
To be honest I'm not really sure what else there is to hunt with dogs, except bear which I don't intend to hunt. Do you think a Kishu that's used to hunting hog would be flexible enough to learn to go after lions?
@Sangmort I too would take a Laikishu LOL. Also I'm glad she's not that hot on strangers, so I can be all smug that she likes me haha
@thegela Hmm I wonder if people do any hunting with Hokkaido. They seem like a nice middle ground breed between Kai and Shiba. Alberta's beautiful, you should definitely move there! I'm waiting on my dad's proof of Canadian citizenship papers (since he misplaced his) so that I can send away for my own. I have cousins in Squamish (35-45mins north of Vancouver, BC and the inland wilds are pretty similar since the provinces are right next to eachother. Hoping to take a semester of college up there if possible and do some hiking, hunting, and fishing.
@ttdinh Haha Kilbe sounds pretty energetic! Similar to Tsune who had to be run for 3miles every other day at the least or he'd get crazy and not know what to do with all of his energy. I do plan on starting a family some time after I'm done with my bachelor degree (2-3 years) so that's definitely something to consider that I hadn't been weighing that heavily until you mentioned it! I do see everyone else's Kishus as being good with their kids.
Would you guys say Kishu are good family dogs?
As for recall, to be honest, Kishin has the worst recall of any dog I've owned. Worse than my Shiba. But, he's still a young jerk, so maybe he will have better recall (I keep working with him on it) as he becomes a more mature jerk.
Now, about "gameness"... I'm not sure it's required to hunt boar, or even generally preferred. I think it depends on the hunters preference and hunting style. There are basically three common ways to to hunt boar with dogs: Bay, Catch, and a mixture of both...
For catch work, gameness is needed, as is a lot of "fight". The dog has to be game enough to take massive abuse from an animal and still stay in the fight. This is why game pitbulls and other fighting breeds, like the dogo, make great catch dogs.
For bay work, the dog is not required to catch the boar. It may bite the boar, to get keep it distracted, but it is not expected to bite and hold the boar. This is how Kai hunt, and this is how Laika hunt.
Now, for the third... This is where the Kishu is special. They catch and bay boar. So that is why they need "gameness" as they often will catch as well as bay a boar. Another mix is where you employee bay dogs, like Laika, with a catch dog, like a dogo. The Laika track and bay the boar, then you release the catch dog to go in for the final catch.
Catch work is very dangerous.
Here a few examples of the different styles of Kishu and Laiki hunting boar...
Laika
Kishu
In United States and Canada, the market-demand for Laikas is in small-game animals-- particularly fur-bearing animals. The problem? The current hunting trend in Europe is boar-hunting. The other problem? Americans prefer catch-dogs for boar-work. It is easy to find a dog with titles on boars for import, but it is harder to find other blood-lines available for export. People want to keep good dogs to themselves, you know?
However, I am happy with my Laika. He finds animals for me and I just walk to where he barks. I will admit Laikas are very quick to react in defending themselves, but he has very easy to manage in dog-conflicts since he never gets into a fight without an obvious reason. Once separated, he cools down immediately within 10 seconds and forgets. I can't say the same with the other breeds I have had where the body language is harder to read.
The gameness is why I shyed away fro Dogo Argentino and Airedale Terrier. However, the lack of common sense (or "woods-wise") is why I shyed away from scenthounds. On paper, Laika seems to be a good compromise. However, I still have to see how he takes to the gun this spring or this fall.
That was really interesting to see the difference in them. Thanks for that! The Laika baying vs the Kishu going for takedowns. It does seem pretty dangerous, especially that one Kishu who grabbed the boar by the head and was pulling it down, but it's neck was across the boar's muzzle, seemed like it was asking to be gored heh. What would you personally choose if you had to select down to a single dog to go hunting with?
@souggy Yeah I hear you on it being hard to find a blood-line to import. It's usually difficult enough to get a specific, well-bred, uncommon breed dog just in North America. What species do you hunt with him?
Well, the only games I am allowed to hunt around these parts with dogs are groundhogs, upland birds, water-fowls, predators and invasive species. I would buy a trap-line to legally shoot fur-bearers with the dog, but it seems like all the recreational hunters are driving up the resale price beyond what is economically feasible, just so someone can hunt a deer or moose from a cabin using trapper's rights.
@souggy Haha also a valid point. The paperwork can be a huge headache. I've gone through it several times with clients for just the vet side of the paperwork. That alone was a pain in some cases, especially France for some reason. I've never looked into purchasing a trap line, they have special trap-line specific exceptions that are more beneficial than just buying a season license right?
Saya has treed squirrel three times once in snow and rest in spring.
She was able to hold them on the tree the two times, but third she treed it in the woods so it was able to get to it's nest. Saya came back from the woods and we headed for rest of our walk.
Saya did bark and whine at the squirrel she sounded mad at the squirrels like hey get heck down from there..
I never trained her to tree or anything guess it comes natural. I do have couple squirrel pelts I use for flirt toy and one for fetching.
not sure on any info on kishu or laika good luck on your research.