Shiba + Shikoku?

Rikka

Hi guys! I don't normally post here, as I often lurk, but I've been on the prowl lately for some additional information... My partner and I felt that in a year or two, having an additional "family" member to our household would be ideal -- especially one from the Nihon Ken group. We've been leaning more towards a Shikoku, but also felt a Kai Ken would be great, too.

Would anyone mind providing information and experiences for owning a Shikoku and/or Kai Ken? Even better with Shibas AND Shikoku/Kai Ken together! My Shiba, Sagan, is generally an outgoing, feisty dude who loves the presence of other dogs and people. We're quite active, as we like hiking every week and general outdoorsy activities, including classes, and showing him off in downtown Seattle. ;-) Not to mention lure coursing coming up this summer!

Edgewood

I am sure that multiple others will chime in about having a shikoku and a shiba. But it all depends, especially on the type of shiba you have and how that shiba likes to play.

Some said they didn't have issues adding a shikoku, but others have said that their shibas did NOT appreciate the in your face attitude and play style that shikokus have.

My personal take is that shikoku really only play well with other dogs that have their type of rough and tumble play style. I own 3 shikoku and they really like each other and love playing together. But it is a ton of biting, pulling each others skin, chest and body slamming, general provocativeness towards the other dog.

Would your shiba like this type of play?

Hinata23

I agree... A Shiba and Shikoku sound like a bad mix to me. There are some members that have both and they seem to do just fine. I think the sex of the dogs from each breed has something to it, as well. For example: a male Shiba and female Shikoku would probably work better than 2 females or a female Shiba and a male Shikoku. I don't know if that makes any sense.

I have a Kai and Shikoku and they are perfect together. My male Kai is not reactive and brushes off rude dogs. Like Edgewood's 3 Shikoku, they play really rough and really love it lol. Not sure if your Shiba will get bothered by that.

ttddinh

I have an older female shiba and added a younger male Shikoku to the pack. They LOVE one another! Kaiju gets in Bea's face but she puts him in his place. Though, given their play style, a shikoku MAY be a bit much for a shiba. However, each case is different!

Hinata23

@ttddinh That's right! I had totally forgotten you had a shiba! I was think of Beth with Tetsu and Miyu.

Losech

I think Conker would love a Shikoku buddy. Most dogs won't play with him 'cause he's a little monster!

Anywho, I think it largely depends on the individual dogs and their personalities and play preferences.

Calia

It really depends on the individual dogs, and how tolerant the shiba can be.

When I first got Miyu, Tetsu hated her with a vengeance. Both are very headstrong and neither would tolerate being growled at (often escalating it by growling themselves). Tetsu didn't like having his personal space invaded, and Miyu didn't seem to understand his signals or she didn't care. It really helped having Tikaani around, not only did he offer an outlet for Miyu's energy, but he also was very tolerable of her attitude and he would intervene if there was any tension about to build. It took a good 6 months of restricted interactions and hard work before we were able to start feeling comfortable with Tetsu and Miyu being together. Took a good year for the two of them to actually play together, which was basically both of them running in circles trying to be the one getting chased.

From what I've heard though, a kai would make a better companion for a shiba than a shikoku would. Kai seem to have better dog social skills and respect when a shiba desires space. So if you think your shiba can tolerate rudeness and another hardheaded dog, or you're willing to put in the work of having them get along, then you could get away with getting a shikoku. But if you think that kind of match wouldn't work, a kai may be more suited.

If you haven't yet, try meeting representatives from both breeds in person and get a taste of what they are like.

GrayJJ

I'm am/feeling in the exact same boat as @Rikka -- eager to hear the experiences of adding a Shikoku.

CrimsonO2

The beginning years can be tough, but despite all their differences, a Shiba and Shikoku can learn to co-exist peacefully and actually help balance each other out.

An overly in-your-face Shikoku puppy tells you that you need to tire your Shikoku out more mentally and physically to 1.) keep them happy and 2.) keep them well-adjusted to the balance that your Shiba is accustomed to in the house.

BTW, my Shiba is a shy reactive dog and he has, on more than one occasion, ventured outside of his comfort zone because my Shikoku girl has pushed him to tolerate things more (new sights/smells, new people, physical contact, etc.)

BradA1878

I think a shiba and a shikoku together is a pretty horrible idea. LOL

lindsayt

I would go for a Kai and Shiba, as long as you make it an opposite sex pair. My female Shibas loved their Kai boy Akuma, and he them, but the Shiba boy and Kai boy started getting testy with one another when the Kai hit sexual maturity. He was pretty respectful of the Shiba snarking, and they both appreciated being given lots of space. With any of these breeds, they can be hardheaded and "mine-sy" about resources, and peculiar about space. It can take a lot of management sometimes regardless of breeds, but I would suggest another Shiba, or a Kai female if you are really wanting to stay in the NK family.

Heidi

I think a shiba and a kai is a better idea than a shiba and a shikoku. I had a shiba and a shikoku and they definitely got off on the wrong foot. Once they got used to each other, Rakka (shikoku) would run up to Tojo (shiba) and spazz at him, at which point, Tojo would just stand still as a statue and stoic until Rakka gave up and went away. Sure, they weren't fighting, but the ideal situation would be for them to actually play together and enjoy each other's company. They did meet as adults, though, so if one of them had been a puppy it probably would have gone much smoother.

But, yes, it depends on the individuals. Sounds like the shiba is pretty cool with other dogs, so I would try to get a shikoku that's not a total prick. Some are bigger jerks than others.

From what I can tell, a kai will get along with most dogs. My kai gets along better with Rakka than any other dog ever has and she's better off for it.

Crispy

My Shikoku loves Shibas.

Unfortunately, TK shows affection like a lovestruck and socially awkward ten year old boy.

He tugs on tails and body slams and likes to chase them around. No Shiba he's met will tolerate his brand of bullshit. One does much better with him than the rest, but still gets overwhelmed and it always ends in me interfering with "play time" to give the poor guy some space.

Edgewood

Space....shikoku have no inkling of what "my space" and "your space" are! To a shikoku, all space is "their space". They are always in another dogs face, pressing them to play, even if the other doesn't want too. I think it is innate to shikoku, so that is why they do well with other dogs that play like them.

Like @Calia said, I do think Siberians play well with shikoku because they have a somewhat similar play style (and are also more tolerant in general). And on my n=3, they play well together too, even the 2 females, who actually love each other. Though I will admit that my one female is only 6 months old, so we will see what it is like when she matures.

WrylyBrindle

shikoku have no inkling of what "my space" and "your space" are! To a shikoku, all space is "their space".

and this is one big reason why I have kai kens- Sage would not tolerate a housemate like this (actually, Reilly wouldn't either), or would be miserable trying to if I asked him to, and I dont want to spend that much of my time with my dogs joysticking their interactions. Build a pack that can flow, that gets each other.

NotoriousScrat

So, I get the idea that Shikoku can be too pushy in terms wanting a Shiba's attention (too hardheaded dogs wanting opposite things does seem like a problem), but I'm confused about the play style thing. Is there something that I'm missing? I would (and it seems to be the general opinion on the Shiba side as well) generally regard Shibas as very rough players, so it seems as though in that regard Shibas and Shikoku would get along quite well. Body slams, chasing, being chased, biting ears, necks, etc. are all ways that my Shiba likes to play, and he doesn't really get upset if he gets bowled over or knocked down either. He plays very well with dogs who are big and also rough players, like huskies, and it was my impression that my Shiba was pretty typical in this way. Is there something particular about the Shikoku rough playstyle that generally doesn't mesh with Shibas?

Calia

Before Miyu, I really didn't know or understand how respectful Tikaani was to Tetsu. When they played together they wrestled hard and rough, and I figured that it would be the same between Tetsu and Miyu. But Tikaani would handicap himself, flipping to the ground so Tetsu can get on top, and when Tetsu had enough Tikaani would go off and find something else to do.

Miyu would sometimes handicap and be gentle, but she was so persistent and didn't take 'no' for an answer that it really pushed on Tetsu's buttons. So while Tetsu did try to rough house with Miyu, when he was done she wanted to keep going. She wouldn't stop pestering him until a) we separated them b) Tikaani happened to be around and wanted to play or c) Tetsu gave a strong correction to get her to back off (he'd basically grab her cheek and growl, to which she'd jump back and grumble before wreaking havoc elsewhere).

Miyu was also the type where if she does it to you then it's alright, but if you do it to her then it's not alright. So in her mind it was alright if she dive-bombed a sleeping Tikaani, but if Tikaani dive-bombed her while she slept she would get snarky about it. Tikaani can handle her snarkiness as she growls and nips at him, he just lifts his head up and waits it out, to which she trots off in a huff. Tetsu on the other hand didn't like dealing with snarkiness, so if she got snarky with him it could escalate into an argument. But overall, Miyu has somewhat learned the boundaries of both boys and has learned to not bug Tetsu so much. Though, I don't think Miyu and Tetsu would be getting along as well as they are if Miyu didn't have Tikaani for an outlet.

Edit to add that I also want to state that all 3 do get along incredibly well now, it just took a lot more work to get to this point than it would have if Miyu was of a breed that was more dog savvy.

Edgewood

I cannot answer it for your shiba per se, but here are some videos of how my shikoku play.







I have many more videos of them playing on my youtube channel if you want to watch (EdgewoodMeadow)

And @WrylyBrindle, I don't have to "manage" interactions in my pack of 3, because they all get along super. But they all have similar personalities and play styles, so they don't take offense. If they didn't, then I would have to manage the interactions.

lindsayt

Shibas do like to play rough, when they are youngsters especially, but on their terms, and this play dramatically tapers with age. As does their tolerance for bullshit and any perceived "rude" behavior. It's my impression Shikoku don't heed "no" signals from other dogs very well, are tenacious and relentless when they want something, and that would send a Shiba over the top.

Kai seem to be way more respectful of the space thing and mine was never "in your face" with play, but he did tease the Shibas with some paw slaps and carefully calculated goosings, and enjoyed darting away in anticipation of a snark. It was like a very special Kai courting dance.

He was pretty careful not to touch them a lot, at least not until he had enticed them to play. He always was anticipating a snark from them during play, so he definitly had Shibas figured out, and he would just brush it off and stay out of reach no problem especially as he was faster then they were.

Akuma was masterful at coaxing a shy, dog aggressive, reactive, or otherwise reluctant Shiba into full on play, male or female. I mean, he could sell ice to Eskimos in that regard, and I think that is a trait that is fairly typical of Kai, at least from Brad and Jens breedings.

Crispy

@Edgewood - Ah! I love Kuma. He's like a super-gentle TK... which might be saying something. I love his little tail-nom on Sachi in the last video.


You know, I find that TK plays REALLY well with my LGD breed foster dogs. Better than with any other dog he's played with outside of this one Greyhound who is one of his BEST friends (odd match - but whatever). I think they're much more patient with him than the majority of dogs we meet.

Next time we see Griffin (a Shiba TK has the best relationship with), I'll take a video. Griffin is one of the BEST Shibas I know. He's incredibly well behaved and tolerates a lot of BS from other dogs and he'll play with TK for a short while, but it always ends with Griffin getting overwhelmed by TK's play style.

CrimsonO2

I guess the best thing to do here would be to have @Rikka and @GrayJJ post some videos of their Shiba at play and we can chime in here to better help them assess whether a Shikoku would fit with their Shibas personality. Shikoku being a more scarce breed, I find the ones I meet to all have that same tenacity (won't take "no" for an answer) when they start something.

Jesse

JessicaRabbit

Space....shikoku have no inkling of what "my space" and "your space" are! To a shikoku, all space is "their space".

Truer words have never been spoken. My shikoku violates all space. She is in the face of my dogs, my cats, my husband, my guests. The only person who's space she respects is mine. And I think that is only because I established that boundary very early in her life, and remained consistent.
The whole reason I still crate my dogs is because Miko doesn't know when to quit, and my other dogs look to me and my husband to run interference, and when we aren't home there is no one to protect them from her shenanigans.
This is not to discourage you from having a shikoku if you really want one. When we had a Shiba, he really loved Miko. And truth be told Miko is one of the most charming dogs I have known. She even has enough charisma to offset her douchebaggery.

WrylyBrindle

@Edgewood- sure, you don't have to, but I would have waaaay more management and interference-running than I would enjoy if I asked Sage to live with a shikoku. I love Miko, and Miyu, but --that's just me, not my big ol' reactive lug-a-dug! He likes Rei-Rei and the kai kousins just great.

shibamistress

First, just seconding what Lindsay said about Shibas. Older Adult Shibas still play rough, but not nearly as much as young Shibas, and they very much only want it on their terms. When I think about my adult Shibas (7 & 9) they are sometimes unrecognizable from what people talk about with their young Shibas, because they really do change quite a bit as they mature.

My Kai fits in wonderfully with all the dogs in the household. He does play rough, and can be in your face (more with people than with dogs even), but he is very good at reading the other dogs, and he backs off appropriately. He has superb dog skills. We've had a few conflict with him and the AA, both in the very beginning and after he hit maturity, but he's good at reading the signs, and he backs down and we're able to smooth everything out. He's a great companion for my crazy girl Shiba (they are crazy about each other) and he's even been able to make inroads with my older fearful reactive Shiba who doesn't tolerate any other dogs. Because he's not too pushy and he reads other dogs signals well, he's probably the only dog who will ever be able to make any progress with Toby....

He's just the perfect dog when there is a mix of personalities, levels of reactivity, etc. He really has the best social skills. And so while I know that's partially an individual dog thing, it is also something Kai tend to. And I have to say, after you meet a Kai and hang out with them....you'll love them. They are the best! I think all our future dogs will be either Kai or AA (because I also like having a big dog).

Go Kai!

JessicaRabbit

I just wanted to share a picture of @dlroberts Shiba Joey playing with my shikoku Miko.

jikjak

my shiba wasnt friendly at all when ghost was brought into the household as a puppy. she even bit him a couple times and drew blood. i had to keep an eye on them for the first month or two. eventually the shiba learned to accept him and now they get along and even play together.

CrimsonO2

Right,
As many Shiba + Shikoku owners are saying here, adding a Shikoku to a Shiba household is not without concerns. Proper attention to their interaction will help you weather whatever storm could arise until they reach harmony at a later age.

Jesse

GrayJJ

I'll try to capture a video next time, Grayson is definitely a rough play kind of dog. He loves huskies and my friend's husky-gsd mixes and does so taking on a few at a time even though he can fit under their legs.

I don't know, I keep reading that shibas are not as social, want their own space, etc. But I really don't see it with Grayson -- he is very social with both dogs and humans. Constantly.

shibamistress

How old is Grayson? Shibas often get much more intolerant of other dogs as they get older. Though of course, you could just have one of the more rare very social Shibas.

GrayJJ

@shibamistress he is 19 months now. I do hope his social skills stick around.

I will try to capture a video this weekend and post it soon.

MikoChan

My Shiba is about the rudest (in the same vein as Shiko) and she has meet many Shiko's and loves them and their playing style. Honestly just depends on what your Shiba will tolerate just like everyone else is saying.