LOL. Oh man...yeah, super cute!! But even I don't have enough time or space to take care of a puppy with that high of drive. If I was working from home/had a house with a nice sized backyard, maybe. But working full-time away and living in a town-home, poor thing would go NUTS!! It would be torture This is exactly why over a year ago, when I started my research on what dog breed I wanted and was considering a husky, I had to step back and realistically evaluate that decision. As much as I love them, I would have been torturing it by not being able to give it as much space/exercise as it needed.
When I read the thread title, I thought, uh, no, I don't! Great video, though, for those who think they might!
It's also why, when the people with herding dogs in my agility class look at me kind of pityingly when Leo is not performing, I think, sure, it would be fun to have a dog that reliably does agility, but I'd way rather have my Kai boy who sometimes does it and sometimes doesn't than have to live day in and day out with those australian shepherds, border collies (shudder), or even super drivey GSDs. It's great for people that like that, but for me, I'll accept that Leo does agility on his own terms, and is, most of the time, a lovely dog to live with that doesn't drive me crazy.
To show how unsuited I am for a high drive dog of that particular type--since I think drive plays out differently in different breeds--I even hate the way the herding dogs make constant eye contact. It would drive me out of my mind!
This doesnt look like an extreme puppy to me. (or maybe I dont realize that I like 'high drive' dogs?) Id take him. I think this is a very workable, trainable, capable, fun dog.
I do see a puppy that needs to get outside and get exercised at the moment, tho, not be in the pen, and to work with their human, play, train and get information. I see a puppy that has an overwhelming/overstimulating amount of items in his pen. I dont think you can have a dog like this and just fill his pen with 'enough toys'- I'll crate a dog with a chew bone/rope and a soft toy, but no more. Obviously a puppy also needs a predictable schedule of rest/activity/together time/apart time.
I dont put a lot of stock in Leerburg, so while I know the point of the video is supposed to be to shock us into thinking we should reconsider how active a dog we'd enjoy living with- and one really should consider that carefully and honestly- I do not really trust that guy to tell us "Yes this dog can NEVER settle down." The puppy doesnt look anxious or manic- just busy and active. Ive read the other articles from that company/trainer- lots of dominance, prong collars, and physical corrections, as well as a really obnoxious attitude toward anyone who thinks differently or asks questions (read the Q&A on aggression sometime.) If Patricia McConnell or Nicole Wilde or Ian Dunbar or Suzanne CLothier were to tell me this puppy is constantly like this, I'd believe them, but I bring a big salt shaker with me to anything Leerburg before I just believe it because they say so.
As someone who has [ 3 ] working-line dutch shepherds, basically brindled malinois.... one 3 years old, one 1 year old, & one 2-month old, in my humble opinion, this video is full of shit.
I especially dislike the comment about how reputable breeders won't sell to first-time dog owners. Wraith was our first dog---ever--- and the breeder I get my pups from is one of the most reputable I know, from first-hand experience, and from building friendships with other puppy owners. She's so good, I'm actually afraid to get my dutchies from anyone else, as I know they won't live up to her dogs, and the puppies she produces. She DID require a reference, & I'm eternally grateful to @brada1878 for making us look good to her LOL
All I see in this video is a puppy who hasn't been exercised. I bought an ex-pen with Wraith, and neither he, nor Aggro, nor Siren liked it, no matter how many toys I threw in there. If I take them out for off-leash play, they run around for 10 minutes, then get bored. Being hyper does not mean a dog has drive. Likewise, having a high drive does not mean a dog has to be hyper.
What I found works well for my dogs, is giving them some "work." Whether that means doing some Obedience training, or going out on a bike ride with instructions [ left, right, slow down, speed up, etc.], their main desire is to have something to do, that involves, well, you. They won't be content until they've had time bonding to you.
I can run the dutchies all day, but I ALSO need to give them something to let them work their brains, even if it's just OB training, exercise their mind, and they will be content. [ unless, other dogs are running around of course Then it's play time! ]
We don't have the luxury of a fenced-in yard, or barely any yard at all for that matter. And yet, all my pups are content. We don't do any "real" work or sport, yet we're all still alive, sane, healthy & happy.
Are there crazy-ass hyper dogs with crazy-ass drives? Yes, there are, but I don't believe they are the majority. Talk to working / sport people, they don't want a dog that won't settle down for anything. They don't want a dog that never stops. They don't want a dog you have to kennel 99% of the time.They want a dog that will have the drive & energy to do whatever it is they want it to do, then turn "off."
You can teach them to settle down, the same way you can do nothing with them and let them spin out of control, if you leave almost any dog with nothing to do ever, they'll get bored and destructive.
Do I think working mals & dutchies, or even any other working breed [ ala, my hunting-line kishu ] are the perfect fit for everyone? Hell no. But they are not to be put on a pedestal as crazy-ass dogs that aren't good for pet owners either, afterall, we are just pet owners ourselves.
Most of the people on this forum could handle a dutchie or a malinois just fine, if they find the right dog to fit their situation, and if they are willing to exercise & mentally stimulate them, however that might be, the way they do their NK. ~
Well said @Sangmort I agree with what you say about needing to work them "mentally" too, not just physically. I have a friend who has a Border Collie (and we all know how crazy those can be), and he would run and run and run the dog and it would NEVER seem to calm down. After I did some more research on the breed, I suggested, rather than just physical exercise all the time, try mental as well and you're right, works like a charm. The supposedly "un-containable" collie is now well worked and much calmer in general. You just need to find what your dog needs and work with them (and shouldn't that be the case with most dogs? )
And I agree with you about the ex-pen thing (though I have no experience, I can just imagine that it wouldn't work out well).
It's kind of ironic how the guy is talking about how the puppy needs mental and physical stimulation all the time while showing pup is in a pen and tied up... He's showing a pup who's being placed in a situation where all he can do to let out energy is be destructive and annoying. Of course he's going to bark at the dog and tie to get at it... he's on a leash and can't reach it. Of course he's going to break a box and shoe... That's all he CAN do. He's a puppy...
I really really dislike the Leerburg guy and his training methods and find much of thoughts on GSDs wrong headed and repugnant. Clothier's article was more interesting.
I think my take on it was mostly what I posted above: I never see a dog with a lot of drive and think, wow, I want that! I think, wow, not the dog for me! Even a mellow GSD like the one I had (who did, actually come from Leerburg lines a couple of generations back) was too much for me, because I was tired of a dog that always seemed to want to be given direction, and was so often looking for something to do.
That said, there was a bit of irony to watching that video, because as I was watching it, Leo was doing this:
(bad photo, but it demonstrates his enthusiasm!)
I've never thought of him as particularly high drive, probably because I have tended to equate drive with a certain kind of drive seen in herding dogs. I know that's not right--that drive is different depending on breed, etc. And I've come to think he may have a higher drive than I thought--he's starting to demonstrate a really strong desire to hunt, and has an interesting way of scent tracking that involves sweeping an area for a scent. And he's determined--as I posted on the FB page, I could barely hold him back when he got on the track of a coyote recently. He's still probably only medium drive for a Kai Ken if that, but he certainly his "drive" looks very different than that of a GSD or BC.
And his delight in shredding things, or his bouncing off the furniture as he sometimes does never struck me as being about drive, but seems to be excitement and a way of working off boredom. That's a different thing.
Haha Leo!!! xP I guess you're right, Kais have a drive in a different way, though I would place Kona at about medium too...she too enjoys tearing things to itty bitty pieces, jumping and bouncing off beds and couches, and I love it but I think you're right too in that maybe it's working off boredom.
Drive will manifest itself in different ways. For working-line dutchies / mals, it's the biting. That's another reason why I thought the video was full of shit.
A DRIVEY dutchie pup could be the calmest thing in the world...but when they're attacking your ankles, or grabbing your leg and won't let go for anything, THAT is the "high drive" kicking in. LOL [ why malinois pups are nicknamed "maligators" ] ~
Here is what my herding dog is doing right now (and does for most of the day):
But if one of the cats tries to scratch the carpet or sneak through the hole in the screen door, he will bolt awake and stop this immediately because herding.
He's pretty intense, but learning how to regulate his behavior/drive helps a lot (Control Unleashed, FTW). Redirection is important...when he's doing something he shouldn't and I stop him, I give him something else to do, and now when I tell him to stop doing whatever he seems to seek something else to do on his own. He really really really wants to work. I love it though. I love that he's very tuned in to what I'm doing. His desire to be told what to do makes training a lot of fun
He's my first dog, and I still wouldn't recommend a herding dog as a first dog for *most* people, but anyone who's researching dogs *before* they get one is probably proactive enough to handle them well.
Comments
It's also why, when the people with herding dogs in my agility class look at me kind of pityingly when Leo is not performing, I think, sure, it would be fun to have a dog that reliably does agility, but I'd way rather have my Kai boy who sometimes does it and sometimes doesn't than have to live day in and day out with those australian shepherds, border collies (shudder), or even super drivey GSDs. It's great for people that like that, but for me, I'll accept that Leo does agility on his own terms, and is, most of the time, a lovely dog to live with that doesn't drive me crazy.
To show how unsuited I am for a high drive dog of that particular type--since I think drive plays out differently in different breeds--I even hate the way the herding dogs make constant eye contact. It would drive me out of my mind!
I do see a puppy that needs to get outside and get exercised at the moment, tho, not be in the pen, and to work with their human, play, train and get information. I see a puppy that has an overwhelming/overstimulating amount of items in his pen. I dont think you can have a dog like this and just fill his pen with 'enough toys'- I'll crate a dog with a chew bone/rope and a soft toy, but no more. Obviously a puppy also needs a predictable schedule of rest/activity/together time/apart time.
I especially dislike the comment about how reputable breeders won't sell to first-time dog owners. Wraith was our first dog---ever--- and the breeder I get my pups from is one of the most reputable I know, from first-hand experience, and from building friendships with other puppy owners. She's so good, I'm actually afraid to get my dutchies from anyone else, as I know they won't live up to her dogs, and the puppies she produces. She DID require a reference, & I'm eternally grateful to @brada1878 for making us look good to her LOL
All I see in this video is a puppy who hasn't been exercised. I bought an ex-pen with Wraith, and neither he, nor Aggro, nor Siren liked it, no matter how many toys I threw in there. If I take them out for off-leash play, they run around for 10 minutes, then get bored. Being hyper does not mean a dog has drive. Likewise, having a high drive does not mean a dog has to be hyper.
What I found works well for my dogs, is giving them some "work." Whether that means doing some Obedience training, or going out on a bike ride with instructions [ left, right, slow down, speed up, etc.], their main desire is to have something to do, that involves, well, you. They won't be content until they've had time bonding to you.
I can run the dutchies all day, but I ALSO need to give them something to let them work their brains, even if it's just OB training, exercise their mind, and they will be content. [ unless, other dogs are running around of course
We don't have the luxury of a fenced-in yard, or barely any yard at all for that matter. And yet, all my pups are content. We don't do any "real" work or sport, yet we're all still alive, sane, healthy & happy.
Are there crazy-ass hyper dogs with crazy-ass drives? Yes, there are, but I don't believe they are the majority. Talk to working / sport people, they don't want a dog that won't settle down for anything. They don't want a dog that never stops. They don't want a dog you have to kennel 99% of the time.They want a dog that will have the drive & energy to do whatever it is they want it to do, then turn "off."
You can teach them to settle down, the same way you can do nothing with them and let them spin out of control, if you leave almost any dog with nothing to do ever, they'll get bored and destructive.
Do I think working mals & dutchies, or even any other working breed [ ala, my hunting-line kishu ] are the perfect fit for everyone? Hell no. But they are not to be put on a pedestal as crazy-ass dogs that aren't good for pet owners either, afterall, we are just pet owners ourselves.
Most of the people on this forum could handle a dutchie or a malinois just fine, if they find the right dog to fit their situation, and if they are willing to exercise & mentally stimulate them, however that might be, the way they do their NK. ~
http://www.suzanneclothier.com/blog/drive-and-brakes-and-steering
And I agree with you about the ex-pen thing (though I have no experience, I can just imagine that it wouldn't work out well).
I hate how condescending he sounds.
I think my take on it was mostly what I posted above: I never see a dog with a lot of drive and think, wow, I want that! I think, wow, not the dog for me!
That said, there was a bit of irony to watching that video, because as I was watching it, Leo was doing this:
(bad photo, but it demonstrates his enthusiasm!)
I've never thought of him as particularly high drive, probably because I have tended to equate drive with a certain kind of drive seen in herding dogs. I know that's not right--that drive is different depending on breed, etc. And I've come to think he may have a higher drive than I thought--he's starting to demonstrate a really strong desire to hunt, and has an interesting way of scent tracking that involves sweeping an area for a scent. And he's determined--as I posted on the FB page, I could barely hold him back when he got on the track of a coyote recently. He's still probably only medium drive for a Kai Ken if that, but he certainly his "drive" looks very different than that of a GSD or BC.
And his delight in shredding things, or his bouncing off the furniture as he sometimes does never struck me as being about drive, but seems to be excitement and a way of working off boredom. That's a different thing.
A DRIVEY dutchie pup could be the calmest thing in the world...but when they're attacking your ankles, or grabbing your leg and won't let go for anything, THAT is the "high drive" kicking in. LOL [ why malinois pups are nicknamed "maligators" ] ~
I think I've mentioned that to you before hehe
But if one of the cats tries to scratch the carpet or sneak through the hole in the screen door, he will bolt awake and stop this immediately because herding.
He's pretty intense, but learning how to regulate his behavior/drive helps a lot (Control Unleashed, FTW). Redirection is important...when he's doing something he shouldn't and I stop him, I give him something else to do, and now when I tell him to stop doing whatever he seems to seek something else to do on his own. He really really really wants to work. I love it though. I love that he's very tuned in to what I'm doing. His desire to be told what to do makes training a lot of fun
He's my first dog, and I still wouldn't recommend a herding dog as a first dog for *most* people, but anyone who's researching dogs *before* they get one is probably proactive enough to handle them well.