So I decided to try PetSmart puppy kindergarten...

So despite living in the suburbs of a major metropolis full of animal lovers, dog parks and beaches, pet "boutiques", vegans, and crazy liberals its very difficult to find a good dog class. The city of Long Beach has a pretty good Parks and Rec website through which you can sign up for classes, but none of the other towns in the area have anything like it. The Long Beach classes are run by a third party and not the city itself. The positive reinforcement one I took Mosura to was by DogPACT and I really like their trainers. Sometimes there will be SPCA-LA classes through the Long Beach Parks and Rec class catalog as well. That's how I found an agility class for Gojira. I found Dog Karma positive puppy kindergarten for Angirasu, not through Long Beach, but it was over a half hour drive to get there and back.

None of these three (DogPACT, SPCA-LA, or Dog Karma) are an option for me right now. DogPACT's puppy kindergarten is on hiatus indefinitely because the indoor facility they use is being renovated. SPCA-LA doesn't offer a positive reinforcement and socialization class for puppies; its traditional obedience geared towards CGC or competition. The Dog Karma class was great, but the long drive made Angirasu freaked out before class even began and she couldn't settle, relax, or focus until it was almost over.

There are a few other options even further away in Yorba Linda, Pasadena, and Mission Viejo (all of these are at least 40 minutes maybe over an hour drive). They also don't offer the kind of puppy kindergarten I want, like the DogPACT and Dog Karma classes, which focuses a little on manners and a lot on socialization and canine etiquette. I have my dog's entire life to teach it commands, but her early socialization is whats more important to me. I also have no interest in squashing a dog's natural drives and personality by imposing my will on them at such a young age. I think that's a good way to ruin a primitive breed like the Akita. I like their natural drives and if I wanted an obedient, furry slave I'd have a Border Collie instead. I go to puppy kindergarten for socialization, not obedience; I can teach obedience at home just fine.

So... I decided to try PetSmart puppy kindergarten. I knew that all of the stores use positive reinforcement training, so even if the experience and caliber of the trainers wasn't really great, I wouldn't be asked to do something potentially damaging to my pup. I thought that because it was a puppy kindergarten it would include socialization and play time between exercises so puppies could unwind and learn about doggy manners too. Little breaks help the learning process, too; its why we have recess at our schools. But I was wrong.

Although the training is mostly positive reinforcement, there is zero socialization or interaction between the pups. In traditional obedience classes there is some interaction because the dogs often end up walking in a circle together and later on having to weave between each other. Not so with this class. There is no walking, as it takes place in a room within the store. The puppies are placed at opposite sides of the room and never get anywhere near each other. They are never given a little off-leash time to unwind between exercises, so again, no chance to meet and greet there. So number one, my main reason for attending -- early socialization -- is completely shot.

My second complaint is the lack of detailed explanations and clear follow through. For example, the trainer at this class never used the words "positive reinforcement" and never explained operant conditioning and how it works. She mentioned markers, but didn't get into what a marker is and how it predicts that a reward or reprimand is coming. She never explained that order, timing, consistency, and the promise of reward is important for a marker to work. She didn't have us spend time "loading" the marker or explain how to do it or why it needs to be done. Other parts of positive reinforcement were glossed over with the same lack of detail. Luring and capturing weren't explained at all. She brushed upon negative punishment (NILIF - nothing in life is free) so quickly that if you sneezed you would have missed it. I know about all this stuff, but the other family? Probably not!

She started using other verbal cues like the dog's name and a verbal command before the puppies had even a chance to figure out markers or hand signs. "GameraSitWatchMeWaitGoodGirl" is a huge long thing to say to a puppy all at once; how is she going to pick out any of those words as having significance? Its just noise! And then half the time she didn't even use the marker in her demo at all. She often said the marker without following it up with a reward, and at this stage the marker absolutely needs to mean "a treat is coming!" 100% of the time.

That brings me to the other problem I had. After trying sit 3-4 times with a hand sign and then twice with the verbal cue, she wanted us to have the dog sit, stay, and walk away from the dog 3 steps before allowing it to go through the doorway. Seriously? This woman knows nothing about the Three D's of dog training - duration, distance, and distraction. Even if they could do a sit reliably on command (which they couldn't) you don't add both duration and distance at the same time. Whenever you add one of the Three D's you got reduce the other two. I was actually pretty impressed that Gamera was able to add duration almost right away. But I could see the way her butt wiggled that if I took a step away she was going to get up. I asked if I could release her early and was told no. So when I stepped back she got up. This happened every time. Other positive reinforcement trainers have always told us that if you see a dog about to release itself, release them before they have the chance so they don't get the "reward" of having done something you didn't tell them to do.

And another thing... setting the dogs up for success. The above is just one example of pushing them too hard and giving the puppies too much opportunity to fail. We're only supposed to ask the dog to do something we're reasonable certain it can and will do. If you put the dog in a situation where its likely to fail and ask it to do something, all the dog learns is that it can ignore you.

Oh, and speaking of which, she often repeated hand signs and commands every 4-6 seconds instead of only saying it once. Again this just creates noise, makes the words lose meaning, and teaches the dog it can ignore you. "Sit" no longer means put your butt on the ground; "sit sit sit sit" means put your butt on the ground. I tried not to use any verbal command more than once during the class and multiple times the trainer "corrected" me on this.

The trainer was determined to "prove" how great she is. I've seen trainers do some awesome stuff with dogs I thought were difficult by using the correct positive reinforcement techniques and setting the dog up for success. I was really shocked when the trainer got Mosura to walk up to her and impressed when the other trainer taught Angirasu to stand from a down in just a matter of seconds. This trainer was nothing so impressive as them. She spent five whole minutes trying to get Gamera to look her in the eye even for a fraction of a second. Gamera was way more interested in looking at the other puppy. It just wasn't happening, but she had a chip on her shoulder wanting to prove she could do it. My puppy is now the "tough case" that she wants to show off that she can bend to her will. Ugh. This isn't about pride its about the dogs, get over yourself. (Also, the other puppy was one of the Three D's - distraction - and the trainer shouldn't be trying to teach a new trick with distractions!)

I also didn't like the way the trainer interacted with the other puppy. It was a husky/GSD mix deeply attached to the owner's boyfriend. It kept avoiding and flinching away from her [the owner] and going back to her boyfriend. The trainer on a few occasions pulled the puppy to where it was supposed to be, despite it thrashing at the end of the leash and whimpering or whining. The puppy flattened itself against the wall or door, ears down, whenever it couldn't hide in the boyfriend's legs. It was clearly unhappy and I don't know how it was expected to learn anything in that situation. It avoided eye contact with both the owner and trainer and everything about its body language said it was uncomfortable and wished they would leave it alone. The trainer told the owner to keep the puppy by her side like this so that the puppy would learn to trust her. I don't see how any trust was being built at all.

Finally that brings me to the other owner in the group. I despise them. The first thing out of their mouth during the introduction was "we feel like we rescued her" which is code for "we bought her from a backyard breeder." They went on to describe the horrible condition the puppy was in at four weeks (!) when they brought her home. But the breeder still received money for the sale of the mixed-breed pup and will probably breed more in the future. That brings me to the breed combination - Husky and GSD. I seriously cannot think of a worse combo; hyper, destructive, cunning, separation anxiety, dominant, high bite incidents, and bad hips all rolled into one.

And then the worst thing came at the end of the class, when the trainer asked if we had any issues we want to work on with our puppies. The other owner revealed that their puppy is an "outdoor only dog" and has been since they got her AT FOUR WEEKS OLD. But they're very upset that she poops anywhere she wants in the yard instead of one specific corner AT EIGHT WEEKS OLD. They're also upset that she scarfs her food really quickly and snaps at them while she eats, and when pressed, it was revealed she only gets one meal per day so by the time she gets fed she is very hungry. The owner was very resistant to the idea of multiple smaller meals throughout the day and during this discussion it was also revealed that they're giving her roughly 1/3 the amount of food she should eat per day. I think I actively hate these people. I think someone should take their puppy away from them.

Okay, rant done.
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Comments

  • Oh, another gem from the trainer. The other owners mentioned that their puppy is afraid of the neighbor's three large dogs barking at it in the front yard. The trainer said to leash the puppy and stand out at the sidewalk and force the puppy to stay nearby while the other dogs continued to bark and have a fit. Again she said this somehow teaches the puppy that nothing bad will happen to it if it puts its trust in the owner.
  • Wow, this sounds like a really awful class. It sounds par for the course, though, of the Petsmart classes, though I'm aware that with a good trainer, they could be good. Obviously this is not a good trainer, though. And it's wierd about the socialization, because our Petsmart did have puppy play groups (or at least they used to). But maybe they are entirely separate from the class, or maybe it is only a local store that decides to have them or not.

    My friend M. was accosted by a Petsmart trainer recently when she had her puppy in the store. She had no interest in the class, but the trainer kept trying to practice on her puppy and show off her skills too. It was similar. She claimed to be positive reinforcement, but then told my friend to use a spray bottle on her puppy if she was barking or jumping. And she said clickers "didn't work that well" so she didn't use one. Etc.

    And that poor puppy! I can't stand to think of it either--this poor puppy left out in the backyard since 4 weeks old, and not fed enough....I wish the puppy could be taken away. You just know this is going to be a seriously problematic dog as a young adult, when it will no doubt end up in the shelter. :(

    Are you going to go back to the class? It doesn't really sound like there is much reason to (with no socialization) unless it is to practice work with distractions or being in new places. But I think for me, it would be so aggravating that I'd risk just losing my temper with either trainer or the asses with the other puppy, so it might not be worth going to.

    Sucks though, about your options. We also don't have good options, but I'm lucky that the Animal Humane has a great lead trainer so the classes there are good, and they have a weekly puppy play group too.
  • edited August 2013
    Well as you know, all of their trainers are of different caliber.. This was my experience at our Petsmart.

    "The trainer of Arkane's class was nice. We bonded quickly because Ark already knew everything (even though he was the youngest), so I got to help out other people, and I knew everything she was teaching so we got to talk about more difficult / advanced training.

    The only thing I did not like was that some classes were HUGE. Arkane's puppy class had 10 other puppies, plus the owners brought their spouse and kids, so it was really crammed. We had a dedicated area in the back but it wasn't big at all. His other class only had 6.

    I don't like puppy play time either, it was at the beginning of class and I understand it was to get puppy energy out, but the owners weren't skilled enough to regain focus or control of their dogs. Plus it excited a lot of puppies and they would potty inside by the end of class.

    While I really liked his trainer, and I'm not sure if its because of the training program or not, there were things that upset me. Like she only knew (or taught) one or two ways to teach sit / down, didn't get very crafty. And this is more on the owners than her, but while everyone was looking at the trainer, their puppies/dogs were behaving WONDERFULLY and were giving loads of eye contact, and none of them looked at their dogs and praised them. Ok. It might be a little rude but while she was talking, I listened, but I also had Ark do puppy push-ups and focus on me, treated him when he laid down and relaxed.
    Because as soon as she had people start working on a command, the puppies became interested in everyone / everything else cause for those 5-10 minutes the owners were listening to the trainer, they were super boring. If they stayed engaged the whole time it would have been easier to keep focus, imo.

    Also, focus is taught with holding the treat in between the eyes. That works for some, but not all the dogs caught onto it. I helped a few and had them hold the treat out to the side or in a closed fist at their side and click when the dog looked at their eyes, which I think communicates what you want a lot better.

    When people asked questions, they were rarely answered, or answered well. She knew the curriculum but not much outside of it, when I brought this up to someone else they told me trainers can't teach anything outside of the book, that the students have to buy a private lesson for that.."


    After my experience I'm a lot more comfortable just milling around the store instead of sitting in a little room crammed with dogs. I've set up play dates with puppies we have met inside the store, and anytime we've been in there and my dog(s) have wanted to initiate play with other dogs, the staff says its ok to take them into the training room and let them go wild.


    Edit:
    I'm lol'ing at the Husky/GSD thing.. All I have met have been crazy, with exception to my boy Nare. Many of them end up as outside dogs or in shelters. It really kills me, cause I can't help but think, if I didn't adopt him then he would probably suffer the same. Many who have these mixes seem to be very uneducated.. and I just couldn't imagine how Nare would do with any negative-related training, or without his herding! I had people tell me how annoying he was as a puppy (mostly fear barking/yipping, being very anxious).. But 3 years later, he is my total heart dog.
  • painful to read
  • I am going to go back to one more class and when its over ask to be transferred to a different one. When I asked about socialization for the puppies, the trainer said to go to a dog park or pay for their daily boarding. (Yeah, I'm not doing either of those, thanks.) However, she did also say that there were other, larger classes I could join instead. For this week I can't alter my schedule to make a different session, but after that, I could work in a class at a different time or location. With a different trainer and group of puppies I will probably be happier. If THAT doesn't work out I'll just suck it up and lose my enrollment fee. They don't give refunds, however, if the puppy doesn't graduate, you can do make-up classes for free until the puppy DOES graduate.
  • During JinHo's puppy play class at a petstore, there were only 2 other pups on average and so the trainer brought along her adult male labrador.

    The adult male labrador had something against JinHo and would guard the other pups against him.

    So the $150 for 6 visits were a wash for me. I think I should have spent the money on gas.
  • Geezo. I must not take for granted that even here - in Nowhereland- I found a fantastic puppy class for Matsu. Must never take for granted...Note to self!
  • I dislike how inconsistent PetSmart trainers are.

    My first experience with a PetSmart trainer was this awful. She wouldn't allow London in her classes because he was not neutered at 9 months! This was a decision she made after I attended two classes and London would NOT preform for her in either session. She seemed really frustrated with him and blamed the fact that he had balls on his inability to focus on her. He already knew his basic obedience and I had no problem with him - I simply wanted him to have a class to socialize and get him to focus on me in distracting situations.

    She did, however, give me a coupon that would allow me to take a class with another trainer at the store.

    Six months later, I had recovered from my experience and returned to find the best trainer I'd ever had (I'm not counting Katenna, since she is a behaviorist). The woman I had as my second trainer is who pushed me to have London certified as a therapy dog and really helped me understand my dog and made me want to do the same for others.

    I agree, this was a painful read. I'm sorry you had this experience with this trainer. It sounds like this person is either really green, far too sure of themselves, or just isn't cut out to be training. :(
  • On the GSD/husky cross thing....I ran into a lot growing up in Alaska where husky mixes were, at that time, by far the biggest population of dogs you'd run into. And we had several too (let's just say my mother was NOT a responsible dog owner, so our GSD bitch had several litters).

    Anyway, they didn't seem any worse than any other possible mix. I don't know--perhaps they had health problems I didn't know about, but most of them were ok dogs. None of them were the brightest dogs I've ever encountered, but they were mostly good natured and easy to deal with. I would have issues with a purposeful cross, of course, but as a random mixed breed, they seemed fine.

  • edited August 2013
    @shibamistress Well I really dislike the temperaments and energy levels of both breeds so it just seems like they'd be that much worse together. Call it personal preference.
  • Yeahhh PetSmart is really really hit or miss. I was working at a Banfield and one of the perks was a free series of classes. So I took Tsune to beginner obedience class. He did so much better than I had expected, and the trainer was top notch when it came to getting him disciplined with his penchant for starting fights. There was no social time though, and one class had one of the other trainers as a stand-in. Wasn't impressed whatsoever. So it's definitely on a trainer by trainer basis. A lot of the younger ones have the starry eyed dreams of being the next big animal trainer, but in reality all they have is the week or so of PetSmart training and that's it. I'd go with the older trainers (late 20s+) every time if sticking with PetSmart and having the option.
  • @shibamistress Well I really dislike the temperaments and energy levels of both breeds so it just seems like they'd be that much worse together. Call it personal preference.
    Ha! Totally makes sense. I have some nightmare crosses as well. :)

    Back on topic, I find it super annoying when puppy classes don't have socialization. I mean, isn't that the point?
  • I worked at Petsmart and only took Mya to training there when a guy I knew became certified. He was amazing and Mya really did well, and so did the other dogs in the class.

    This was the exception to the rule, though. Most of the trainers in our area became trainers for the money. They didn't want to groom (thank you Jesus!)but working as a cashier doesn't pay much. Next best thing... Trainer! They go to school for a week or two and then they make commission on every person in every class. There were a few good trainers in my area, but most of them couldn't even control their own dogs, much less help other owners! It's sad, but that was the best thing in town too. The only other trainer (I use the term loosely) around liked to use shock collars and bull whips to train dogs. I don't know how he never got arrested. People lined up in droves to have him as their trainer and mourned him when he died.

    It's really sad that a place like Petsmart can't train people longer and produce more consistent results. I knew I quit that place for a reason! :)

    Mya lucked up, but I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. That really is a horror story! I hope you got a refund!
  • edited August 2013
    I have called around and made some changes. There is another class at that same PetSmart on Sundays held by a different trainer, and that class has five puppies in it. They are one week ahead of the class I am in; this coming Sunday will be their third session. I am going to attend the second session in the current class with the current instructor and then be transferred to the other class two days later.

    I asked about transferring to a class in a different store (there are two PetSmarts closer to me) but they said their infrastructure couldn't handle that. They would instead refund me for the current class and I'd have to enroll anew in the other class. This is good news; it means if I'm still unhappy Sunday I have a plausible story to convince them to give me a refund. I simply wont enroll at the other store. Otherwise, they made it sound like they wouldn't give me a refund just because I didn't like the first session.

    I have also signed up for a class through the SPCA-LA. Last time I checked they didn't have what I am looking for but now they do. There is a puppy preschool starting on this Saturday morning and the website says "puppies will be given time to socialize with other puppies and people." My only concern is that when I've tried to enroll in some of the SPCA-LA classes in the past the class was cancelled due to lack of sign-ups. I haven't been able to get someone on the phone yet to find out if there are enough people enrolled in this class.

    My earlier comment about SPCA-LA not offering positive reinforcement classes was also wrong. Puppy preschool is a positive reinforcement class. The one I was thinking about through Long Beach that is very traditional obedience is Dog Services Unlimited. (I wont use them again ever; that's the one where the instructor told us to fill a soda can with pennies and throw it at the dog when it didn't listen.)
  • (I wont use them again ever; that's the one where the instructor told us to fill a soda can with pennies and throw it at the dog when it didn't listen.)
    What the... what?! Like AT the dog to hit it?
  • edited August 2013
    Just behind the dog, and if that didn't work, hit it in the flank. Yes.

    EDIT: There were all kinds of rules about how to use the can. Always throw underhand. Throw it just behind them or at the flank, never the head or shoulders. Never let the dog see you throw it. Never let the dog see you pick it up. Have multiple cans in the house, when you walk, etc so one is always available. I forget what else...
  • Glad you found some better options!

    Yeah, that can thing drives me crazy. I have heard people say that it was not "aversive" too, which just baffles me. And one woman told me once, well, if "we didn't do that to stop our five month old dog from chewing on things, we'd have to take him to the pound, so this is better." That just made me so furious--and baffled--that I decided to simply end the conversation.
  • Sounds like a hybrid of a throw chain (used in advanced recall work before e-collars used) and a tattletale alarm (used to deter digging through the trash or countersurfing).
  • I have used a can of Pennies, but just for a quick shake when Mya had been completely unresponsive to anything else I said or did to get her attention. I can't believe someone would throw one at a dog!

    @Poeticdragon they should give you a refund no matter what. If they give you any trouble, just ask for the store manager and tell him that you want a refund and if he can't give it to you, the district manager will when you call him. I saw it happen a million times and it always worked.
  • I'm sorry to hear you had such a bad experience. I do, do a Petsmart training class regimen with Sachi but its for this one trainer who I took on a whim a 20$ 1 hour private session and she was amazing so I drive about an hour one way in traffic to take this class (its only 20minutes home though!). However I would say she is not the norm. She does agility, hunt and show obedience with her dogs so she knows the people for expanding fields. Her puppy class is right before my intermediate is on working with basic commands, and getting the dog used to being handled and some social time but even then that is not what you're looking for so it might be the curriculum that Petsmart is putting down...
  • How far from you is that zoom room in Huntington Beach where the SoCal meetup is gonna be? They offer puppy classes, and the indoor "park" environment seems ideal for socialization. According to their website, their regular classes are also positive-reinforcement only (but I have no experience there).

    @ayk, I'm sad your class experience didn't work out. I didn't notice anything weird the time we stayed late and played with the puppies. But that was just once, and we left after the first break. :(
  • @zandrame - JinHo's the fourth puppy that I've taken through this petstore play class.

    There were enough puppies for the first puppy (PoongSoon) that attended, and the structure of the class was good for the most part, but a couple owners didn't like the owner/trainer. I didn't like him for his breed biases.

    For the second puppy that attended (HwangYoung), the assistant trainers ran the class and I didn't see the owner/trainer. Which was a relief to me. They were low in puppies but I just accounted it to the wrong season for puppies at that time. HY was not food motivated or socially attracted to people and so his off-leash recalls were a joke. I didn't want to reinforce this by using commands that weren't backed up, but they still wanted me to do this. I didn't find the training portion very creative that would account for pups like him.

    Since I didn't want the assistant trainers to form the wrong opinion of Jindos, I subbed in a different puppy in one of classes (Jingu) so they could see a better-adjusted, more typical looking Jindo as an example. One that would happily greet people and come when his name was called.

    For the fourth puppy that attended (JinHo), the owner/trainer popped in for one of the classes and he proceeded to hold JinHo back from play. I felt that he assumed JinHo was the trouble-maker of the lot just by his breed and not by his body language.

  • edited August 2013
    That's so bad :( I had a great experience at my Petsmart..the trainer stayed an extra 15-30 at the end of each class just to let the puppies play...and this was at night, when she could have just spent that time going home earlier...She was extremely knowledgable and spent lots of time telling us the purpose of everything we did during training...was also a vet tech., so she helped answer tons of questions in that regard too. I guess I was just lucky...sounds like there are lots of bad experiences :(
  • edited August 2013
    I went back for the second class. I wasn't as annoyed afterwards but it certainly didn't get any better. The instructor continued to fail at explaining concepts or why we were doing anything. Didn't do any reinforcement at all, just repetition and "practice."

    The first class included sit, watch me, and wait at the door. The second class was about loose leash walking and sit to greet. We walked around the store a lot. The entire hour almost. Never once were we told to reward the dog, nor how to actually encourage loose leash walking. My specific "problem" with Gamera is not that she pulls or lags behind (her pace and attention on me are both pretty good) but that she gets tripped up in my legs. The trainer's only advice was to keep going up and down the aisle with her. She didn't address how to teach the dog to stay on one side; even though this is supposed to be a lead-in for CGC and Obedience, she didn't care if the dog walked on the left or right. (Always supposed to be on the left.)

    I would have taught the dogs "touch" before trying loose leash walking. It worked fantastically with Mosura. Walking became a game of pac-man, with her nosing my hand and me shoving treats in her face every few steps. I've been working on "touch" with Gamera on my own, in no small part because that's also a good way to teach "stand" from a sit or down and is good for teaching a dog to stack at shows.

    One thing really bothered me though. Gamera has always offered very little eye contact or focus. I think I mentioned it in my first post. I've been working hard and seen noticeable improvement in that regard. Well, when she was making almost continuous eye contact during our loose leash walking exercise, looking up at me for direction and being really focused.... the trainer said it was wrong and I had to look away and ignore her. She said if I was looking at the dog, then the dog was leading the walk and being dominant, not me. WTF? *sigh*

    After class Gamera got to play with the other puppy, Luna. The owners tried to drag her over to play and she was pretty upset about it. She laid down on the floor, tucked her tail, and didn't want to move. The owners and trainer remarked that she was tired, but I could see she was overwhelmed. Fortunately Gamera was giving her space and not very interested. So I just talked to her nicely and gave her treats over and over until I saw her becoming more alert and less shut-down. Then she wanted to sniff at Gamera, and then pawed at her, and then the game was on! So the girls had fun romping and I feel like I helped poor little Luna a bit. :)

    Here's a video of them playing.



    A few times Luna yipped or hid under the stools for protection, but I was happy to see that most of the time Gamera would then either play bow or run off and be like, "Okay, then you can chase me instead! Come get me!" Good little girl~
  • Gamera is so cute, and I'm glad they got to play--a little bit of joy in the other puppy's life, since it sounds like she's not getting much.

    That trainer is an idiot. I've noticed it's not necessarily that easy to get some NKs to do the eye contact thing (which I'm find with actually), so you work, and get it, and then they tell you it's wrong and she's being "dominant"? What BS! Wonder what she'd make of all those dogs in my agility class that are seem to be falling all over themselves to keep their eyes on their owners?

    I love your idea for loose leash walking, and don't know why I never thought of it before (using the "touch"). We did a variant of that, I guess, in Leo's puppy class--ie. feeding treats when the leash was loose, but the touch is better, and Leo knows it and likes it.

    Anyway, sounds like this class is kind of a loss, still. :(
  • Man...they do suck at that one...touch was one of the first things we learned for all the reasons you listed. Sorry it ended up crappy :(
  • Apparently the other puppy lives with a "really, really old" dachshund and plays rough with her all the time. That's why she lives outside. When the trainer asked, the owners said the dog was 9 years old. That doesn't seem "really old" for a small breed to me, but maybe she's had a hard life that prematurely aged her.
  • Instead of starting a new thread, I thought I'd add my puppy training class woes to an existing one.

    I was trying to find a puppy socialization class for Zora, but apparently, all the training classes shut down at this time of year, so I couldn't find any at my usual places. Finally found someone who had a great website: positive reinforcement, says on the website "no caesar millan techniques" etc. She seemed pretty nice via email, and was recommended by the place I usually go (Animal Humane of NM).

    But the class was delayed, and didn't start til last week, which was the biggest snowstorm of the year. Down in Albuquerque, on the west side where this is, I guess they didn't get much snow, but I did, so I missed class one.

    Today, I left in plenty of time to get there, because I didn't know where the place was. And I ended up spending over an hour driving around trying to find the location. In that time, Zora vomited in her crate. I kept thinking, do I stop now and clean her up, or wait til I get there? I thought I was close, so I decided to wait. Then she peed in her crate. So now I have stinky wet puppy in crate, and still can't find the place. By then, I'm 1/2 hour late. And finally, I find the location, and I see a whole row of adult (looking) dogs, all large, sitting perfectly with their people, then walking and heeling in the parking lot. I'm thinking: I have a three month old puppy. This is not promising. And do I really want to be outside with my smelly, wet puppy in a parking lot in winter?
    No. Nor did I relish the drive every week, given the location was not easy for me to get to even after I finally found it.

    So I gave up and just drove away. I had some misgivings when I saw that this week's lesson (week 2) was sit, down, watch me, and heeling, which seemed rather a lot for week 2 of what is supposed to be a basic manners class, but is really too much for my little pup. She can do all that (except for she has no leash manners whatsoever yet), but it just didn't seem like a good match.

    I guess we'll wait til my favorite trainers at Animal Humane are back up for business in Jan.
  • The quality of a petsmart trainer, or any employee, is extremely variable. In 2012 at a petsmart near my parents house I saw that branches supposed positive trainer explain how to dominate a Dalmatian puppy that couldn't have been older than 12 weeks. The puppy had a prong AND choke AND shock collar on its neck! WHAT!? He also paraded his poor Belgian shepherd around to demonstrate his mastery of animals, correcting it violently for lifting its head off the ground in a down stay. HEAD DOWN! I made some calls and wrote some letters and the trainer was fired. In my opinion he should have been charged with animal cruelty. Conversely a family friend who manages the fish dept at that same petsmart is a marine biologist who has yet to get her big career break. I'll bet she takes pretty good care of those neon tetras and goldfish. So I guess the message is watch their trainers before you attend a class. And don't be shy about giving management a piece of mind when their trainers misrepresent 'positive training'.
  • I'm sorry to hear about the bad experiences. I do want to agree with @Coyote that each store is different and their trainers/employees are likely to vary in training methods and styles too. Not sure if the trainers are required to teach the same curriculum and style across the board (if not, they should). I just wanted to say that The PetSmart kindergarden class (and subsequent beginner and intermediate courses) were nothing like the experiences described above ( I'm not an employee or shareholder lol). Maybe I lucked out on finding a good location :)
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