Pedigree dogs exposed (3 years on)

Lunamyakita

Hi,
I know this programme was put on a few years ago now but I have recently watched it and noticed the topic of "Genetic diversity, inbreeding and breeding practices in dogs" was brought up, this programme seems to suggest japanese akitas " are in real trouble genetically" as while talking about this subject it brings up a picture of 10 breeds one of which is the akita inu. I have been trying to look in to this but am finding very little. If you Know any more on this please let me Know what you think?

p.s im sure you would find this programme on youtube if you have not seen it and would like to.

*JackBurton*

Did you notice that the JA wasn't even covered in the documentary? I made a post on here citing the study was used for the documentary. If you find it, you'll see the JA faired well and was included because it was the first KC breed to have all of its pedigrees stored electronically.

It's an interesting read.

lwroth

I'd be interested in seeing the study you mentioned or in seeing the post you wrote here. I looked for it but couldn't find it. Thanks!

Tensai

I think this is the study mentioned http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2390636/

But you need to understand one thing before you make statements by that study. The Akita Inu in that study is American Akita. At UK the breeds are named differently.
Akita Inu = American Akita
The Japanese Akita = Akita

That study was also made at year 2008 what was two years after the breed split at UK. If that is not the study you were talking I would gladly get a name of the study you are talking? I really enjoy reading them

And that document is really good and was the eye opener to many people and also it make difference in KC There is continue to that document, Pedigree dogs Exposed: Three years on what tells you if there have been change to better.

*JackBurton*

http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/7197/pedigree-dogs-exposed-video#Item_24

Tensai

Yes, it is the same study and the dogs studied are American Akitas, not Japanese. And if I remember right they used only the pedigree data for this study and not that much genetic studies. Naturally those original imports will show more diversity because they only know three generations in that import pedigree when all the original British breeds have the data since they started to keep the registers. So with Akitas the pedigrees known doesn't tell you whole story because you can't track them far enough to the original dogs. So, if I borrow words from Dr House, pedigrees lie Well not lie, but doesn't tell you the whole story. Pedigree analysis are always calculations about how it could be, not the actual fact. You get the fact when you study the genes and there researchers have noticed high homozygous with both Akitas.

*JackBurton*

It's interesting that you mentioned pedigree's not telling the whole story. Earlier this year I filed a complaint with FCI over an Akita Inu registered with the Finish Kennel club. It did not meet the registration requirements of the FCI Akita Inu breed. After that I added another 4 dogs to that complaint. In those cases we had blended dogs being called Akita Inu when they were not. Maybe the breeder snuck them in for "genetic reasons", they clearly were not old enough to be placed in the breed during the split.

Not on-topic but I did find it comical after reading your response.

Tensai

Nice to hear that you have complains about my dog. If you had asked straight from me about the registration I could have told you that all is done with the Finnish Kennel Club and by their rules. I could have saved you much efforts. The thing is that the Finnish Kennel Club is open for crossbreeding and actually they were very supportive for my import. The registration rule for Akita is that if the dog is registered as Akita in the country of origin you can register it as Akita or American Akita in Finland. The owner decides this.

And yes, my boy have also been genome tested and he have much more diversity than pure JAs and we hope to get some lost genes back to the akita genepool. I have NEVER been hiding my boy's pedigree. And I wonder how this offends you?

*JackBurton*

It's a simple issue the member countries of FCI voted to split the Akita into two breeds. Early on some Akitas were allowed to be placed into certain breeds by phenotype. This practice (confirmed by FCI ) was ended in 2002. After that breed placement is done by pedigree only.

If you believe in placing a dog in a breed by genetic testing then encourage your kennel club to pressure FCI into allowing in all member kennel clubs.

If your kennel club supports the mixing of the two breeds then FCI should consider the removal of the kennel club. If they don't the integrity of the registry is in question.

To me this is no different than producing a litter without papers. But saying since the Sire and Dam are Akitas it's ok.

Tensai

This thing is really simple. The Finnish Kennel Club allows the registration of blends and the owner can choose the breed for registration. It can also be changed by the owner after on with show judge approval. The Finnish Kennel Club is very open for crossbreeding for health and genetic reasons and it is one of the most progressive Kennel Clubs in the world in health issues. My boy's registration is done with the advices from the Finnish Kennel Club and they surely know that his mother's side is American type. As you can see from here in his pedigree in the database of the Finnish Kennel Club. http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmKoira.aspx?RekNo=FI16698%2F13&R=255

This is also really simple in other ways. If this offends you, stay away from our lines and our work because we are trying to widen the Akita genepool in the small ways we can and make the health situation better. You might not see this now, but maybe in time you will see the bigger picture. For now I wish all the best in your way of doing things and I hope you can honor our tries. Though I am rather flattered that some people tracks my doings with such enthusiasm.

If you have more questions about my dogs or my doings, pleace contact me with email or make a new topic for this, so we don't make this totally off topic. Thank you.

*JackBurton*

Thank you for confirming what I already suspected. Sadly you have blended lines on both sides of the pedigree sire and dam. Not just the female side. What you call work, I see as questionable ethics. Regardless anyway this isn't the proper place to continue this topic.

jellyfish

 

The registration rule for Akita is that if the dog is registered as Akita in the country of origin you can register it as Akita or American Akita in Finland. The owner decides this. 

Im lost. How are you supposed to differentiate the split if the owner can choose if their dog is an JA or AA without considering the pedigree? If the owner is crossbreeding for health, yes thats fine, im down with healthy dogs. But bottom line, it is a blend and should not be registered as JA nor AA. If you can just choose what breed you want your dog to be, why even bother having a pedigree. Why bother even splitting the breeds. How is the finnish kennel club part of FCI? FCI doesnt register blends, but it sounds like the FKC does.

Also, looking at the pedigree of your dog, and correct me if I am wrong, just trying to sort all the facts out so please dont be frustrated with me, your dog is registered as "akita", which according to your clarification earlier, means it is a Japanese Akita. But there is clearly more American Akita dogs (all presumably from the united states, presumably tge AA breed based on the english names given), than actual japanese akitas.

ayk

I'm also confused.

It sounds like someone could take a (Japanese) Akita from Japan, bring it to Finland, and register as either (Japanese) Akita or American Akita? So gene flow from (Japanese) Akitas to American Akitas?

Are people in Finland taking American Akitas from Japan and registering them as (Japanese) Akitas? Or is that blocked?

jellyfish

@aky thats the issue I am confused about too.....

MirkaM

Yes that is true that you can import JA and register it to AA here in Finland . Or import AA and register it to JA.

*JackBurton*

That is where Finnish Kennel Club is out of compliance with FCI. I brought this exact issue up with the WUAC and was told that this practice is incorrect. After 2001 the practice of being an FCI member and registering your dog via phenotype had stopped.

What's even more disturbing is that they are openly allowing crossbreeding. In effect Akitas in Finland are no longer pure breed.

ayk

I can see why *JackBurton* and the rest of the JA folks are up in arms about this.

Pedigree names that could help point to a blend, and allowing people to buy in knowledge no matter their position on blends, would fall off after the great-grandparent generation.

For a strict adherant that follows the Japanese's lead about their breeds, this could lead to a distrust and disavowal of all FCI pedigrees.

Worst case scenario, I can imagine that things could fall down to folks only trusting dogs that have current AKIHO pedigrees.

PoetikDragon

Someone posted about this before, but I'm afraid I don't remember the kennel club or other details. Basically, the KC in question allows dogs to be cross-bred to other breeds. This is only allowed for specific outcross breeds which offer necessary traits for the breed's health and type, yet are still similar in phenotype. The puppies may be registered, but they're not considered purebred and cannot be shown. Then they are bred back to a purebred specimen of the parent breed for multiple generations. When a dog has no more than 1/32 of its blood from outcross breeds it is considered purebred again. I like this system and think it is a good way to deal with breeds that have severe health problems or have otherwise become overdone and painted themselves into a corner genetically.

Neither breed of Akita is in a dire situation like that, but I wouldn't have a problem with kennel clubs that chose to employ such methods if it were supported by the regulations. My problem is that what the Finnish kennel club is allowing goes directly against the FCI regulations. And we're not talking about 1/32 or even 1/16 unpure dogs, but 1/2 or -- apparently -- 100% unpure dogs. When dogs of a completely different breed can be registered based on the owner's whim and desire pedigrees become meaningless. Additionally, if you really want to fix a breed, you don't go to a close relative that has all of the exact same health problems. In this case, it would be far more appropriate to find a medium sized spitz breed that isn't known for VKH or SA.

MirkaM

I think @souggy posted it .

*JackBurton*

@ayk If the Finnish Kennel Club wasn't a member of FCI then I wouldn't care one bit. It would be no different than AKC of CKC(Canadian Kennel Club). In one of the earlier post, it was stated that I should "stay away from our lines and our work ". If you weren't a part of FCI I would love to.

But the fact remains, that kennel club is a part of FCI and has a delegate with WUAC(World Union of Akita Clubs). As a delegate myself it is my job to point this out because the dogs produced from these breedings are not FCI Akitas. They are Akitas but they should not be papered as such.

jellyfish

I full agree with the last statement JackBurton has posted.

Tensai

Now hold your horses. FKC does not register dogs randomly to which ever breed the owner wants or support random crosses or breeding mixed breeds etc. There you get it all wrong. That registration rule consider only those registers what are not under FCI but are still approved with FCI, like the AKC is. And because AKC have not done the breed split the rule says for Akitas that the owner can ask this Akita to be registered as JA or AA and that can be changed later by the owner and show judges. Same rule is with some terrier breeds what are split by FCI and not with AKC. And yes, AKC is the register for USA what FCI approves, not UKC.

And FKC have several breeds who have the official crossbreeding program and it have been strongly suggested also to Akita because of the health situation and most likely it will happen at some point. But this have not happened yet. Registration goes in crosses that they are all registered in the breed but they have different register. They can still be shown but they can't get all the titles (like Int Ch). Last summer F1 Kromfohrländers win the puppy class in the breed speciality actually. Do note also that you can't get the crossbreeding project trough if you don't have good enough reasons for it. It is huge process with lots of paperwork. And FKC is not the only one who does this. I just read sometime ago that UKC gave permission for Lundehund crossbreeding project what is really great thing!

If you still don't understand this, please contact me and I try to explain it more clearly

*JackBurton*

Honestly I think it's better to keep this here in the open.

"That registration rule consider only those registers what are not under FCI but are still approved with FCI, like the AKC is. And because AKC have not done the breed split the rule says for Akitas that the owner can ask this Akita to be registered as JA or AA and that can be changed later by the owner and show judges. Same rule is with some terrier breeds what are split by FCI and not with AKC. And yes, AKC is the register for USA what FCI approves, not UKC. "

That's funny because this is what was emailed back to me:

"That is 100% against the FCI rules. I will inform JKC (or would you like to do that?) and ask them to send a protest to the FCI and the Finish Kennel Club."

ayk

Wait, I'm confused about what @Tensai said in the earlier post:

The thing is that the Finnish Kennel Club is open for crossbreeding and actually they were very supportive for my import. The registration rule for Akita is that if the dog is registered as Akita in the country of origin you can register it as Akita or American Akita in Finland. The owner decides this.

In the above, you were saying "Akita in the country of origin". Country of origin is Japan for both American Akitas and (Japanese) Akita according to the FCI.


That's different than the most recent post of AKC Akitas in the U.S. transferring to FCI countries.

*JackBurton* - My understanding is that AKC Akitas transferring to FCI countries should be going to FCI American Akitas unless they also have dual JKC (Japanese) Akita papers?

Calia

Funny thing is is that, in a sense, the JA is not recognized by AKC or it's affiliated akita breed club. Take any top winning JA into an AKC ring and it will still lose to a low ranking AA. It has come to the point where many US JA kennels have formed their own club away from AKC so as not to have the breed judged against the AA standard.

Here's another discussion that I think is relevant to this conversation: http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/5316/fci-vs-akc/p1

*JackBurton*

There are JA that are registered with AKC.

So when I was writing the proposal to UKC, I borrowed the reg requirements from the Kennel Club(UK). The KC got there's from FCI post 2001.

Maybe the FKC is under the impression that the Phenotype rule is still in effect.

MirkaM

I just want to add and make it clear that not all Finnish JA people are so thrilled about about this case that AA has been registered to JA.

tjbart17

@Tensai if this is about health and making Akitas a healthier breed then I have to agree with @poeticdragon maybe crossing them with a breed like the Kai would be better. Of course then you couldn't register them as JA's, but they may have less health issues.

I can't read your website. Do you tell your puppy buyers that your dogs are part AA? Is it clearly explained on their pedigree?

*JackBurton*

@MirkaM I know I'm trying not to paint with a broad brush but it's nuts that someone at FKC signed off on this.

ayk

For the sake of buyers making decisions based on knowledge, could someone fill in the missing information on the akita inu pedigree database?

http://www.akitapedigree.com/details.php?id=74876



Here's a re-post of the pedigree that Tensai shared:
http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmKoira.aspx?RekNo=FI16698/13&R=255

and a couple sites that have pictures of the ancestors:

mom: Sondaisas Wear Ur Holster With Style
http://www.breeders.net/detail.php?id=143595

paternal grandfather: Kingdomhouse Mercury Rising
https://kingdomhouseakitas.shutterfly.com/nike

maternal grandfather: Sondaisa Fyre when Ready
http://www.sondaisakitas.com/2008theme/Dogs/Holster.htm

maternal grandmother: Sondaisa Stacked Style
http://www.sondaisakitas.com/2008theme/Extended/Style1.jpg

tjbart17

I'm confused @ayk is this dog 25% JA and 75% AA?