How far back in lineage should you worry about aggression (AA)?
Ok...I apologize for this if it gets long. 
I don't want to start a flame war, or get name names publicly or anything, but I am wondering if you discover a dog in back aways in a lineage had aggression issues (like severe, lawsuit-inducing, dog had to be destroyed issues), and then hear "rumors" that "other littermates" also had issues (no confirmations on that, just rumblings form one breeder or another), when does it raise red flags?
After YEARS of research and talking to breeders and hanging out on forums, I just put a deposit down on a dog, and I see that it has some shared lineage with a dog who had the above problem. My puppy-to-be's sire's granddam...so puppy's great-great-grandmother is a half sibling to DOG IN QUESTION (via the dam).
I spent a long time researching breeders, and I had hear "rumors" from one or two folks about THIS KENNEL'S dogs having aggression issues "a while back", but didn't think much of it b/c, honestly...sometimes it seems like I'm wading into a sandbox full of fighting cats when I am trying to learn more about different lines and breeders.
NOTE: to clarify, the aggressive dog's breeder is NOT one I am getting a dog from. My breeder just has the dog who has a great-great-grandparent from that kennel. Very long backstory how I found my breeder: FWIW, I was initially interested in a Minda dog. Minda and affiliated kennels had no pups available in our time frame. One affiliated kennel had a LC, which I didn't want...but one of THEIR affiliates DID have pups coming up. In fact, the dam was a littermate to the LC sire, who is gorgeous and a lovely dog. (But NOT out of Minda lines.) So, I spent a bunch of time reading and learning, talked with the new breeder, and felt happy with her. Wasn't a Minda dog, but seems solid and respectable. Anyway...
Again, without naming names and kennels, the lines my breeder uses are largely Regalia (DOG IN QUESTION, great-great grandma, is NOT from Regalia, though), and I felt like I had done my homework well. I talked with her at length about temperament and whether her dogs get along with people, kids, and other animals. I looked at the pedigrees. I investigated all of the kennels IN the pedigree. But then lurking on a forum, I hear about this "issue" with this one dog and his siblings and that litter, and it's sort of freaking me out.
I have been looking and looking for two years, and I finally felt ready to pick a dog...and now...
Maybe I am over thinking this? It seems like there are all these factions--and there are two sides to every story, and I am not sure what I am wading into. So-and-so has aggression issues. So-and-so lines are "hard" while such-and-such are goofy dipshits...and both of them lie about what their dogs are REALLY like. So-and-so knowingly breeds merled dogs. This kennel sells puppies to that kennel and that kennel breeds underage dogs. So-and-so dogs can't be in crossed with such-and-such b/c the pups are uber aggressive. And on and on and on.
My last male was rescued as a puppy from a hoarding/neglect/BYB situation, and he was the most wonderful dog, and such a good representative of temperament that when I decided to get a new dog after his passing, I knew I wanted to go to a breeder. I wanted to find someone who really loved the breed and made dogs like that ON PURPOSE and who worked to uphold the standards.
I guess, my issue is, I am having trouble knowing how much of this is political backstabbing and infighting, and how much is legitamate cause for concern. Is a great-great-grandparent who is a half sib to a litter with a known aggressive dog something I should worry about? I have never, ever found any complaints or reported issues with my breeder--not even any sniping on BBs or forums. It's a relatively small kennel, and by all accounts innocuous. But all of a sudden I am freaked I may be bringing home a man-eater (or cat eater). Not that I can do much about it now, but... GAH. I should really stay of the internet. It seems like no matter how much research you do, everyone has a side and is pointing fingers.
(And I know most of the folks here are JA peeps, not AA peeps...which is why I am posting here, and not one of the primarily AA boards I'm on )
I don't want to start a flame war, or get name names publicly or anything, but I am wondering if you discover a dog in back aways in a lineage had aggression issues (like severe, lawsuit-inducing, dog had to be destroyed issues), and then hear "rumors" that "other littermates" also had issues (no confirmations on that, just rumblings form one breeder or another), when does it raise red flags?After YEARS of research and talking to breeders and hanging out on forums, I just put a deposit down on a dog, and I see that it has some shared lineage with a dog who had the above problem. My puppy-to-be's sire's granddam...so puppy's great-great-grandmother is a half sibling to DOG IN QUESTION (via the dam).
I spent a long time researching breeders, and I had hear "rumors" from one or two folks about THIS KENNEL'S dogs having aggression issues "a while back", but didn't think much of it b/c, honestly...sometimes it seems like I'm wading into a sandbox full of fighting cats when I am trying to learn more about different lines and breeders.
NOTE: to clarify, the aggressive dog's breeder is NOT one I am getting a dog from. My breeder just has the dog who has a great-great-grandparent from that kennel. Very long backstory how I found my breeder: FWIW, I was initially interested in a Minda dog. Minda and affiliated kennels had no pups available in our time frame. One affiliated kennel had a LC, which I didn't want...but one of THEIR affiliates DID have pups coming up. In fact, the dam was a littermate to the LC sire, who is gorgeous and a lovely dog. (But NOT out of Minda lines.) So, I spent a bunch of time reading and learning, talked with the new breeder, and felt happy with her. Wasn't a Minda dog, but seems solid and respectable. Anyway...
Again, without naming names and kennels, the lines my breeder uses are largely Regalia (DOG IN QUESTION, great-great grandma, is NOT from Regalia, though), and I felt like I had done my homework well. I talked with her at length about temperament and whether her dogs get along with people, kids, and other animals. I looked at the pedigrees. I investigated all of the kennels IN the pedigree. But then lurking on a forum, I hear about this "issue" with this one dog and his siblings and that litter, and it's sort of freaking me out.
I have been looking and looking for two years, and I finally felt ready to pick a dog...and now...
Maybe I am over thinking this? It seems like there are all these factions--and there are two sides to every story, and I am not sure what I am wading into. So-and-so has aggression issues. So-and-so lines are "hard" while such-and-such are goofy dipshits...and both of them lie about what their dogs are REALLY like. So-and-so knowingly breeds merled dogs. This kennel sells puppies to that kennel and that kennel breeds underage dogs. So-and-so dogs can't be in crossed with such-and-such b/c the pups are uber aggressive. And on and on and on.
My last male was rescued as a puppy from a hoarding/neglect/BYB situation, and he was the most wonderful dog, and such a good representative of temperament that when I decided to get a new dog after his passing, I knew I wanted to go to a breeder. I wanted to find someone who really loved the breed and made dogs like that ON PURPOSE and who worked to uphold the standards.
I guess, my issue is, I am having trouble knowing how much of this is political backstabbing and infighting, and how much is legitamate cause for concern. Is a great-great-grandparent who is a half sib to a litter with a known aggressive dog something I should worry about? I have never, ever found any complaints or reported issues with my breeder--not even any sniping on BBs or forums. It's a relatively small kennel, and by all accounts innocuous. But all of a sudden I am freaked I may be bringing home a man-eater (or cat eater). Not that I can do much about it now, but... GAH. I should really stay of the internet. It seems like no matter how much research you do, everyone has a side and is pointing fingers.
(And I know most of the folks here are JA peeps, not AA peeps...which is why I am posting here, and not one of the primarily AA boards I'm on
)
Comments
ie. Maybe that dog had a hypothyroid problem and it has since been bred out? Are the parents of your dog tested for thryoid?
AFAIK, all of the dogs in my dog's pedigree are fine, upstanding citizens, with no history of temperament problems. All have their health clearances and come from well-known lines. Like I said, the bulk of the dogs going back multiple generations are Regalia lines, and all political arguments aside, I don't think anyone has a quibble with Regalia dogs...or I couldn't find any.
It's just so hard to separate all of the opinions and raving and finger pointing from the actual facts. And really, who knows? the aggression could have been from the other half of the half siblings line. No way to know, if I can't find any record of any other dogs having problems.
The complicated thing is, not everyone believes temperament (which would include aggression) IS hereditary, at least some scholars who study dogs don't. I think it has to be at least somewhat inheritable, though there are other things that can trigger it too. (One thing I 'm thinking of here is thyroid issues--is that for sure inheretible? My vet says she thinks its not entirely clear, but that she wouldn't breed a dog with it, nor buy a puppy from a dog that had thyroid issues).
and aggression can be caused by other things, too. I was just reading about the effect of stress hormones on neonatal puppies, and how it may (again a may) effect the endocrine system in a way that causes aggression and other issues later in life. This was a study about puppy mill dogs, so it's not your situation, but it's just another one example of how we really don't know.
And do you know what caused the aggression in this dog? Because it might be a terrible fluke: a brain tumor or other neurological problem, or the aforementioned thyroid issue gone terribly wrong (though the latter might be a reason to think seriously about the line). I guess I'd ask the breeder to see what s/he knows, and see what s/he says, and also what they know about the problem. And if you don't like the reason they give for choosing a dog from this line, walk away. I have a not so healthy dog, and I'm not happy that even though it was known the dogs were carriers of a health problem, they were both rebred, and the sire continues to be bred.
Anyway, since I didn't have a lot to go on, and I already had difficult dogs, I went as cautious as I could. I watched dogs at a show, and noticed how a couple of kennels had a lot of dogs that seemed snarkier than others. I noted each time I saw some dog-aggression, I was seeing dogs from similar lines again and again (and I was only looking at material in front of me, so kennel and dog name and I would later look up sire and dam). I decided not to get dogs from those breeders/lines, because it was too big of a risk for me in my situation. I ended not picking well the first time (very well respected/top AA breeder and an unhealthy dog, and then the breeder pretty much bailed). This time, I went with the breeder who had dogs I liked a lot, but who was also open, helpful and responsive, because I wanted to be able to actually trust the breeder, and have someone I could ask questions like this of, and trust the response.
So I can imagine what you're going through. I spent a lot of time and though I love my dog, I now have a three year old dog who acts like he's 10 and who has serious spine issues (and micropthalmia). I do wish I'd gone with this second breeder, who I'll be getting a puppy from in a few weeks, in the first place, because a few more years down the line, I really see how good her dogs are and also how honest she is and how she treats other people, too. That's super important to me.
I'll be interested if more experienced people can speak to this issue specifically, and have ideas about how something like that may be passed down the line. I suspect you'll be fine, as it sounds like your pup will not be closely related, but I understand your concern for sure.
So with regards to "how far back" anything past the grandparent's generation has very little impact on the individual, unless there is linebreeding being done to prevent ancestor loss. This is a general assertion, having nothing to do with aggression itself.
Aggression is one way for a dog to express its mental state: fear. There are other ways to express fear as well, depending on the personality and training of a dog. The typical signs are shaking, cowering, or cringing but a fearful dog may also be extremely submissive, very needy or clingy, or a vocal barker. So rather than looking just for aggression, I would also look for signs of fearfulness in the close relatives and the puppy itself. You want a bold, confident puppy that doesn't feel the need to "prove" anything by asserting itself over others and doesn't over-react when corrected by an adult dog or losing a match with its littermates.
One thing I would say, though, which is kind of a question, really, is what about the bold appearing fearful dogs? I have a Shiba who is fearful, but his reaction to that is to always be on the offensive. I know that most aggression is based in fear, but I also think sometimes a bold appearing dog can also be fearful.
I do have a question here somewhere....or a questioning thought
Now days pedigree breeding is the most prevalent type of breeding in dogdom. However, back in the day, before pedigrees and deep understanding of genetics, people would breed their dogs based on temperament. A farmer or hunter or rancher would breed one dog with a working temperament he/she liked to another dog with a temp he/she liked so that the litter would result in pups with a relatively predictable temp.
So, if, as you wrote above: "all of the dogs in my dog's pedigree are fine, upstanding citizens, with no history of temperament problems", is the case, then I'm not sure you have anything to worry about.
In the end though, I think I feel fine about it in the light of day :-) My reasoning (while not as mathy as poeticdragon's...which, BTW, I always appreciate and find value in) is that IF it was genetics, the chance of that winding its way all the way to my dog is about nil. The parents of my dog have wonderful dispositions. As do their parents, grandparents, and great-greats, etc. The lines are solid, and from well known and respected lines.
I am guessing I just had one of those panic moments you have when you doing something new :-)