Yamato is definitely a red sesame. I'd classify Suki as a black sesame, myself. She was really dark. She had just as much black in her as TK. I think of dogs like Setsuko and Mura when I think of sesame dogs.
When it comes to differentiating the sesames, I usually use the rule of thumb that... "obviously agouti" (think: sable GSD, Malamutes, etc) dogs are black sesame, extended sable and not-so-obvious agouti dogs (think: Rough Collies) are sesame, and red or "clear" sable dogs are red sesame (think: Shibas)
@Shikoku - TK is Athena's uncle. He is Suki's sister. @Calia's Miyu came from Yamato and Suki, I think.
I don't have any pictures of TK at that age saved. I was linked to one a while back from someone (outside of the forum). I'll see if I can find the link. Peggy remarked that TK was a very dark puppy, too.
It could just be that TK has a lot of white markings and that is clouding my judgment on how dark his sesame is (since most BS I see have a closed face). That, and you always remember the vivid images - so the vivid images of black sesame that have stuck with me are all the super-dark, high-contrast images of the color.
In retrospect, I suppose he is not so light.
I still think Athena will be a black sesame. I'm no Shikoku puppy expert, but I'm going to guess that Pup 2 (Athena) and Pup 5 will end up black sesame, 3 and 4 might be sesame or black sesame, and pup 1 is probably going to be a red sesame.... but the lighter pups appear to change more/more unpredictably than the darker pups?
@cdenney Yup. She changes all the time. Sometime she's really red and sometimes she's really dark. Of course she's not kuro goma, but she darkens up a ton every once in a while.
When I think black sesame, I think of Maya or Ahi. To me, Suki (and TK, though I'm going by pics) have too much red/brown in the dark sections and just not dark enough to be considered black sesame, they are just too brown looking. I think in order to really tell which type they are, you have to look at the banding in the strands fur. If the banding has more red than black, it's red sesame. If more black than red, with possible white instead of red bands, it's black sesame. If the black and red are even on the banding, it's the sesame.
On another note, here's a pic I took of Yamato at last years NIPPO show:
You may have been confusing Yamato with his son (Miyu/ChoCho's brother), Tsuyoshi:
@Shikoku - you may also want to add your pup to the online Shikoku Pedigree Database. It's pretty cool and a good deal of your pups pedigree is already on there, with tons of pics. Here's Miyu's so you can see what I mean: http://www.shikoku-pedigree.com/details.php?id=63164
@Calia - Its soo weird that is def not the dog I saw when she said this was the dad. The dad I saw Was huge and Definetly had more black in him. Ill call peggy and ask her. Not that it matters much but I can almost swear I saw that dog towards the middle of the pen row. Maybe he got darker?
I could be wrong, maybe I am I'll admit after the drive I mightve been road drunk lol. But currently I have seen in person All the colors, and she is on the BS Side. She may grow into a S. But for now at least im right with the current color.
@Shikoku - you may also want to add your pup to the online Shikoku Pedigree Database. It's pretty cool and a good deal of your pups pedigree is already on there, with tons of pics. Here's Miyu's so you can see what I mean: http://www.shikoku-pedigree.com/details.php?id=63164
You have a BT Shikoku? Nice! I have never seen one. Also I have been at my condo for the past week and dont have the UKC reg papers yet. Will get that when I go to my house but do I need to wait for the Hip test etc?
IMO, that is such an arbitrary way to classify color. The depth of the red has nothing to do with the pattern of the black hair growth and density. I interpreted that "more black hairs than red" a different way (as in, the pattern of black hair growth from lightest to darkest).
TK certainly isn't a sesame, by that logic - he's got too much black - but he's not a black sesame either, so what is he? If he didn't have such strong red pigment, would he be a black sesame because his red pigment wouldn't be leaking through?
TK, Suki, and Ahi (even Tsuyoshi) are all fairly dark agouti. Certainly much heavier in their black pigment than London (malamute - also agouti). Ahi has more black hairs in thick concentration than the other three in pictures, but they should probably all be black sesame. All four appear to have an extended agouti pattern. Why would they all be classified as different colors?
@Crispy I think TK is between Goma and Kuro Goma. But If I had to choose I'd say he was Kuro Goma compared to ChoCho, who obviously has a lot more aka.
After reading all of this I'm SOO confused now lol What does that make Kiyoshi? XD When they change from season to season how can you really determine what they are? When one might be a light or red sesame but darken up to almost a black sesame in the winter?
I would have been certain Athena is a black sesame...
@hinata- It was my understanding, please tell me if im wrong. That what Crispy is saying is correct. If more dark/black then kuro, and more red then aka, and if even colors all around then goma.
Pups= #1- Aka #2Kuro #3,4 Goma #5 Kuro
I also agree with @Dragonfly - If they change colors with the seasons how do you know or tell? Wouldn't you just go back to their original color. When do they stop changing? How can you even sell a pup based on that fact w/o including a disclaimer. Lol Its funny because peggy told me athena would get lighter and then Darker. So I assumed this was the case.
Personally, also my friend agreed, Athena has the same color scheme (almost) as Kiyoshi. It was uncanny.
It's not hard. They are not going to go from Aka Goma to Kuro Goma. They'll probably go from a more red Aka Goma to a more dark Aka Goma. ChoCho changes and gets darker but more where near as dark as a Kuro Goma.
The pups are not going to changed drastically. Like I said, When ChoCho blows her coat she gets darker (but never as dark as kuro goma), when she grows a winter coat she get way redder (but never as red as an Aka shikoku). You can still tell she's an Aka Goma shikoku.
Here's something interesting, take a look at this pic and see if you can determine which one is ChoCho and which one is Tsuyoshi (those who already know, no cheating):
hmm athena is 3 months right now and her face is still darker than tsuyoshi but #3 looks kuro and the other 2 look goma... What are they exactly now all grown up?
They'll be 4yrs old in September, and ChoCho would be considered red sesame while Peggy has Tsuyoshi as black sesame. That pic posted earlier is the only one I've seen of Tsuyoshi beyond the puppy ones, so I can't really give much input on him especially since he's only about 1 year old in there. I don't know what the third one looks like now since I don't know who he went to.
Comments
When it comes to differentiating the sesames, I usually use the rule of thumb that... "obviously agouti" (think: sable GSD, Malamutes, etc) dogs are black sesame, extended sable and not-so-obvious agouti dogs (think: Rough Collies) are sesame, and red or "clear" sable dogs are red sesame (think: Shibas)
@Shikoku - TK is Athena's uncle. He is Suki's sister. @Calia's Miyu came from Yamato and Suki, I think.
I don't have any pictures of TK at that age saved. I was linked to one a while back from someone (outside of the forum). I'll see if I can find the link. Peggy remarked that TK was a very dark puppy, too.
It could just be that TK has a lot of white markings and that is clouding my judgment on how dark his sesame is (since most BS I see have a closed face). That, and you always remember the vivid images - so the vivid images of black sesame that have stuck with me are all the super-dark, high-contrast images of the color.
In retrospect, I suppose he is not so light.
I still think Athena will be a black sesame. I'm no Shikoku puppy expert, but I'm going to guess that Pup 2 (Athena) and Pup 5 will end up black sesame, 3 and 4 might be sesame or black sesame, and pup 1 is probably going to be a red sesame.... but the lighter pups appear to change more/more unpredictably than the darker pups?
On another note, here's a pic I took of Yamato at last years NIPPO show:
You may have been confusing Yamato with his son (Miyu/ChoCho's brother), Tsuyoshi:
I love the pics!
I could be wrong, maybe I am I'll admit after the drive I mightve been road drunk lol. But currently I have seen in person All the colors, and she is on the BS Side. She may grow into a S. But for now at least im right with the current color.
TK certainly isn't a sesame, by that logic - he's got too much black - but he's not a black sesame either, so what is he? If he didn't have such strong red pigment, would he be a black sesame because his red pigment wouldn't be leaking through?
TK, Suki, and Ahi (even Tsuyoshi) are all fairly dark agouti. Certainly much heavier in their black pigment than London (malamute - also agouti). Ahi has more black hairs in thick concentration than the other three in pictures, but they should probably all be black sesame. All four appear to have an extended agouti pattern. Why would they all be classified as different colors?
Mind-boggling.
@Calia - what would you consider @dragonfly kiyoshi?
I would have been certain Athena is a black sesame...
Pups= #1- Aka #2Kuro #3,4 Goma #5 Kuro
I also agree with @Dragonfly - If they change colors with the seasons how do you know or tell? Wouldn't you just go back to their original color. When do they stop changing? How can you even sell a pup based on that fact w/o including a disclaimer. Lol Its funny because peggy told me athena would get lighter and then Darker. So I assumed this was the case.
Personally, also my friend agreed, Athena has the same color scheme (almost) as Kiyoshi. It was uncanny.
http://nihonken.blogspot.com/p/shikoku.html
@Calia - Shame on you for causing confusion in this thread lol.
@Calia - How old are they int his pic?