New puppy and Raw Feeding questions

MuskokaMoon

Hi All,
We've been following this site for a year now, educating ourselves and waiting for our pup to arrive. We picked him up from our breeder in Quebec, Canada on February 1st at 10 weeks of age. He is a Japanese Akita Inu his name is Raiden Go Sumiyoken and is just lovely...don't let my husband know I used such a girly word for our boy....but he is.
I was hoping to post some pictures but can't seem to figure it out??? Directions appreciated

I also have a question regarding feeding. We started feeding Raiden raw the day after we picked him up. He took to it like a duck to water and has been doing very well. We started with ground bones and chickens, then added in daily a chicken back, which he loved and did very well with and now have introduced lamb ( another favourite) and a ground chicken blend of bones, chicken and offal in correct proportions. He gained 1.5 pound the first week and we are feeding him about 680-700 grams now daily based on his weight. We divide it up into 4 feeds. All was well until yesterday he didn't finish any of meals and had only a total intake of 430 grams. Today the same. He is only taking about a third of the portion at each meal. In every other respect he seems fine. Drinking well, playing, running and being puppy like troublesome. Poops are good too.

Any thoughts or feedback would be appreciated.......if this were one of my children I'd know that their appetites do fluctuate and it's what they eat over the course of week that matters not the daily intake. But with a puppy I'm lost! It's just that he is only 12 weeks old and growing so quickly.....we want to make sure we aren't doing something "wrong". Typical new over-concerned new parents, I know:)

Thanks so much for your feedback and as soon as I figure you how to post pics I will be able to share our little boy with you all!

rikumom

W/ my JA pup, our vet advised not to feed raw until 16 weeks. I didn't get the exact reasoning behind it, but know a set of shiba breeder also don't feed raw until older as well. Something about them getting too much protein and growing too fast being bad for their joints. My pup basically ate commercial prepared raw (either dehydrated or frozen) and kibble until she was about 16 months old, when she started to lose interest in food overall. These days we'll leave dry stuff out for her since she tends to eat odd hours.

Then last year at the store where I buy my raw green beef tripe blends, I found out one of the employees breed Great Danes and she weans puppies off using green beef tripe. So go figure.

MuskokaMoon

@Rikumom....go figure is right ....I've read as many different opinions on raw feeding and puppies as there are stars in the sky, and realize that you can find an argument to support just about any position you happen to agree with. Having said that I appreciate your comments and have just heard from my breeder who reassures me not to worry at this point. Thanks!

Calia

W/ my JA pup, our vet advised not to feed raw until 16 weeks. I didn't get the exact reasoning behind it, but know a set of shiba breeder also don't feed raw until older as well. Something about them getting too much protein and growing too fast being bad for their joints.

Actually, raw diets have less protein than most kibbles. The biggest problem with feeding raw to a puppy is a diet that isn't balanced, if the person is still new to raw a growing puppy will be affected more by mistakes than an adult. If certain nutrients are missing or too much then it could affect the growth and structure of the dog.


Generally, when first switching to raw, the dog will consider it a special treat. But after they've had some time to acclimate to the diet, most dogs will start to regulate and think of it as something normal and not something special. As an example, for someone who orders fast food a lot having a home cooked meal becomes a nice treat, while for someone who often cooks their own meals having fast food becomes their treat.

Calia

Just curious, are you only feeding muscle meat and bone, or were you just grouping the organ meat in with the protein source?

MuskokaMoon

@Calia....feeding commercially prepared ground chicken and bone to start and then commercially prepared "blend" that included meat, bone and offal( in proportion 80-10-10 mix all ground together) all frozen product. We also started with full chicken back about day 4 and he has done well with that. Ran out of the chicken backs on Monday, so none the past 3 days and I'm wondering if that is part of the issue...will have more tonight, as we are purchasing from an all organic fed source.

Losech

"Actually, raw diets have less protein than most kibbles." Not true, at least in my case. If you take away the moisture, the wholefoods diet I feed (which includes grain, so there's less meat than a lot of raw diets out there) has on average 46 grams of protein per meal compared to 44 in EVO (per cup/meal) which is a very high protein food. The protein content can vary from around 32 grams to over 55 grams per meal. This is for Conker, I haven't calculated it out for a bigger dog since I'm just not curious what it is. So, not low-protein and certainly not less than kibble. If you go by weight then yes, it will have less protein than kibble, but in order to make measuring protein content by weight accurate you either need to dehydrate the meat or add moisture to the kibble.

Also, protein isn't the big problem, minerals are. Excess calcium or a wacky calcium/phosphorus ratio can cause more problems than a lot of protein. I wouldn't feed chicken backs (very boney) to a growing dog getting a commercial product more than once a week, since commercial foods have more than adequate amounts of calcium in them already. I'd go for something like leg quarters or bone-in breasts instead.

MapleTwinkie

@losech, I'm sure that comment is relative to the kibble one feeds and the raw foods one feeds. Saigo eats a lot of non protein raw so he now gets less protein than when he was on orijen (known for high proteins). Anyways, each dog is different so every dog has different needs.

@Muskokamoon, I think people wait until after their adult teeth come in for chewing bones, but other than that I think it should be fine.

shibamistress

I've had dogs that I switched to raw at 7 weeks (Shiba) and my BFF had a GSD that was weaned to raw. Both dogs seemed to do well with it. However, I've tended to feed my puppies, now, kibble and work them up to raw. That was only because they seemed unable to eat the raw easily (I feed chicken wings to puppies to start, but some of my dogs were unable to handle that well, including my Akitas!)

With adult dogs, I feed raw once a day, though they get treats throughout the day. But with puppies that have to have 2 or even 3 meals a day, it's easier for me to do some kibble meals and one raw meal.

I do think that the protein levels in a pure raw diet can be high for young pups, so I decided with the bigger breeds (Akitas) to do some raw meals and some kibble until they are older. As I said, it's also simply easier for me.

Should be noted that I feed BARF style, so it is pretty much meat and bone, with organ meat, though all dogs do get table scraps, and some occasional vegies.

shibamistress

sorry, double post

rikumom

Generally, when first switching to raw, the dog will consider it a special treat. But after they've had some time to acclimate to the diet, most dogs will start to regulate and think of it as something normal and not something special.

That explains why my pup no longer likes to eat raw. It's no longer special to her. She prefers processed kibble and treas such as bully sticks and treachea chips over raw grinds. I can fake her into eating raw w/ freeze dried stuff but she turns her nose away in less than a week.

akinno

I really like Honest Kitchen ( http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/dog-food) I feel it has some advantages over raw and is human grade, made in the US and made in their own facility. When researching raw diet, I started to get worried about balanced meals and possibly bacteria being spread in the house. This food appears to be a good option and has little compromise to the raw diet. Just my opinion. I'm not sure if you already have ruled this option out or know of this food. Hope this helps

venus

Eris was weaned on to raw at 4 weeks old and never had anything different, I can't say we have ever had an issue with her going off her food. we had her one 3 meals a day after 12 weeks old as she seemed happier with that rather than 4.
she did have a bit of a protest about offal around 20 weeks but she is happy to eat just about anything. she had chicken wings and necks from 5 weeks at her breeders and was eating lamb ribs here at 8 weeks and tucking into whole rabbits by 12 weeks.
the one thing I will say that I noticed more than anything compared to my kibble fed pups is we have had no massive growth spurt at all. Her growth as been very steady.
one thing i will say is all my akitas seem to prefer whole chunks to minced meats, maybe something to do with the texture rather than taste because the meat is all from the same source.

MapleTwinkie

@rikumom That's interesting, i've never heard of a dog preferring kibble over raw. Saigo doesn't think raw is special, it's just food to him. But that just means all his meals are exciting. He loves eating all the different raw things, different tastes, textures and smells, and loves chewing on the bones. There's nothing in this world more delicious than green stinky tripe and he'll never get bored of that

shibamistress

Thanks, Venus, that's interesting about the no growth spurts. I like hearing what other's experiences are.

@mapletwinkie: my dogs think kibble is a great treat since they they eat raw all the time. I think it's just novelty: oooh, something new! I always call it there "McDonalds" meal when we have to feed kibble (though really, it's good quality kibble so no comparison, but they act like a kid who got to have fast food). And I just bought some of the stinky green tripe for mine too! Haven't fed it yet, though! I might want to feed them outside on that day!

Re: bacteria, etc: I've fed this way for 15 years and at first was hypervigilant about clean up,etc, but, well, am not so much anymore. No one, human or dog, has ever had illnesses from the meat, so I suspect it is doesn't actually happen that often in those with strong immune systems. sometimes vets will use the salmonella scare thing to tell people not to go raw, but you know, even kibble has had it, and for healthy dogs (and probably people) it's not an issue. I buy all my chicken at the grocery store! The big thing for me is that I can't afford to feed 4 dogs (two Akitas) a commercially prepared raw diet, which, while great, are super expensive. But I can feed them a home prepared raw diet, which I do! So that's why we went that route. For those that want to try it, it's way easier than you think. I do remember being nervous at first, but once you get used to it, and your dogs adjust, it's super easy.

rikumom

@rikumom That's interesting, i've never heard of a dog preferring kibble over raw./blockquote>

I think Meichan doesn't like the cold slimy texture of raw frozen. While she's lost interest in her main meals (seem to run in her family), she still likes meat-based treats, but biscuits are really special to her... Prob bc she only gets grain-free kibble and crave the carbs...

venus

i can't say any of mine would choose kibble over raw, Eris refuses certain cooked meat and was recently given a process treat at training with out my knowledge and spat it on the floor looking horrified at been fed cardboard. she eventually decided it couldn't be food and must be some sort of toy and started throwing it about. while the 2 older ones would have eaten it but they were both kibble fed up until 3 years ago.

rikumom

@venus, it's probably also b/c there's more novelty factor of kibble over frozen raw in our household. I buy frozen raw green beef tripe blends, whereas kibble I buy 5# bags and there's usually a new flavor every 2 weeks or so.

How old is Eris now? I also noticed there was no growth spurt in Mei, but I figured it was b/c she's a girl.

venus

@rikumom she is only 11 months so far from finished filling out although I pretty sure she is as tall as she is going to get.
she is a big bitch for a JA but here in the uk we really lack good sized bitches and its certainly not affecting her in the show ring with judges placing her well all but twice. including best puppy in breed wins and a reserve best bitch at a recent show were she was placed over our breeds top winning bitch for 2013.

rikumom

I see I see
Meichan was the runt of her litter, and still midget sized compared to the JAs at the show last weekend. She's double DQ from the shows :-)

MuskokaMoon

@venus...thank you for sharing your experience in weaning your pups at 4 weeks. We weighed Raiden today and he has gained 2.5 pounds since Sunday! So clearly he isn't starving . His intake daily is hovering around 500grams the past three days and today he got his whole chicken back at lunch and finished it. Although my husband had to hold it for him as he wasn't wanting to make the effort initially, but it seemed once he remembered what it was he ate with gusto. We have decided to cut back to 3 meals instead of 4 and that seems to be helping (us if not him). I have read that growth with raw is slower and steady and I would think that would easier on their hips and joints.

Appreciate all the comments and discussion!

venus

@MuskokaMoon this wasn't my litter but
luckily my breeder raw feeds also. Although I am hoping to mate Eris subject to health tests next year and will be raw weaning the litter.

Saya

I know of a shiba breeder who weans pups on raw and another breeder different breed weans to raw fine.

I don't think protein is issue I think it is more Calcium and phosphorus is one issue gotta balance right amounts of calcium and phosphorus.
These links might be helpful for info.
http://www.dogster.com/forums/Food_and_Nutrition/thread/663911

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1659&aid=652

like @Losech said.

I feed chicken backs before fine, but they can be boney only time I give them is when I get a whole chicken and portion it out into meal size portions..

I balance the back meal with boneless meals or liver. same with necks I only fed those when farmer gave me a free bag of them.

I'd try parts like quarter or bone in breast too. quarters can sometimes have chicken kidneys on it which is a plus.

I find this picture helpful.


Here's pic of one of saya's meal few weeks ago chicken wing and boneless pork. she got an egg for am meal and the bone in item and boneless was pm meal.


Like shibamistress I do the do it yourself type raw even though Saya is 20lbs and I could feed it to her fine, but still I find do it yourself raw much easier plus I have good sources from local farmers so meat is pretty good I still buy from grocery too. I have fed grinds from hare today it has meat, bone and organ grinded up.. I tried their goat, duck and the mutton ones she liked them and enjoyed them. I fed them as part of her meals I portioned them into 3oz portions and she got it as a morning meal or pm meal throughout the week along with her normal meals.

I've also tried pre made diets for boarding Saya did well digestive wise with it.

I've fed honest kitchen it's nice stuff I serve it as a snack or small meal. usually mix a raw or cooked egg, ground ewe, beef or canned fish to make it small meal also use as kibble topper for Bella.

She likes the zeal one.

rikumom

@saya, the balance of calcium and phosphorus was exactly why I prefer to do green tripe when feeding raw
http://www.truecarnivores.com/nutrition/green-tripe/

@mapletwinkie, Mei has been enjoying Pet Kind brand tripe canned food w/ her Fromm kibble. This morning I gave her some Green Beef Tripe Xcaliber grind. She looked at it apprehensively but ate it all :-)

MapleTwinkie

@rikumom have you tried giving her unprocessed tripe? I find the canned stuff doesn't really compare to the real stuff.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kxdy0xcm5w1qazfbo.jpg

Saya

@saya, the balance of calcium and phosphorus was exactly why I prefer to do green tripe when feeding raw
http://www.truecarnivores.com/nutrition/green-tripe/

Do you only feed just green tripe no boneless meat, no secreting organs(liver, kidney, pancreas, thymus), no muscle organs(gizzards, heart, tongue), no bone in items?
Or do you mainly give green tripe, but give other items along with the tripe?

@MuskokaMoon haha before too long you'll have a dog freezer.. :P

Saya here inspecting her's.. Full of yummy deer organs, pork, ewe, liver, kidneys, heart, tongue, lamb ribs. etc. I plan to order bunch of quail soon to fill the freezer up..


Bella gets good bit of raw now that I have my own freezer too she loves pork ribs, boneless pork, chicken quarters, chicken feet, chicken and beef liver, lamb kidney, chicken gizzards, beef heart and tongue. She also loves smelt both her and Saya loves smelt yummy fish.

I enjoy raw diet find it much more enjoyable and it works for me. saya is five and still doing well. Kibble she had smelly breath and on raw she seems be more healthy all around.

I'm Glad Raiden is doing better he's probably just adjusting to things.

Saya used to want me hold her drumsticks and thighs, but over time she got better and worked on how to eat the food without me needing to hold it.

rikumom

@mapletwinkie,
When I feed raw green beef tripe, it's from this company that is local to us:
http://m.yelp.com/biz/greentripe-com-hollister?nb=1
I haven't actively looked for butcher shops that sell fresh unprocessed GBT nor will I, we have limited fridge storage.

I feed either the GBT ground, GBT with trachea & gullet ground or the Xcaliber blend. The organ meat blend is too rich for my dogs. @saya, you can read up on what are the ingredients in the grind on their website http://greentripe.com/

There are also other frozen raw I used, but this brand along with Tuckers are the most economical. Somehow Princess Meichan got picky last September and refuse to eat. If I defrost a 2# chub and she refuse to eat it, the older shiba can't finish all of it before it goes bad. So we also offer kibble or freeze dry raw, which is handy for boarding or travel. I guess being picky about food runs in her family. She will sometimes fast for a day. So I started to keep canned food around to entice her to eat.

By the way, re: breath, I have my dogs on Proden PlaqueOff Dental Care for Dogs and Cats, 60gm by Proden http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0047VWPNI/ref=cm_sw_r_udp_awd_ofAatb04B6D0G
It seems to help regardless if they're eating kibble or raw.

rikumom

@saya,
This thread
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/155430/
from Dec 2012 covered similar info on what I feed

It actually made me sad re-reading the old posts. Our older shiba was offered some of the Xcaliber grind this morning and he couldn't finish it. The old boy has several chipped incisors and some cracks in his molars. He mostly swallows his kibble without chewing these days

@MuskokaMoon, sorry for distracting, this thread was supposed to be about feeding your Akita puppy!

Saya

I'm confident with Saya's diet so not really looking to change it. I just mentioned the breath thing since I saw improvement from kibble to raw.

Pretty much half her meat, bone in meal and organs is grass fed/free ranged from local Indiana farmers. other half is from grocery and local butcher and small portion from other sources like hare today and other places. I plan to make a big order at hare today soon getting whole herring, sardines, and quail might get rabbit as Saya loves whole rabbit.

@MuskokaMoon you might find this link interesting well anyone interested in learning about canine nutrition really. has info on various nutrients etc. gives the effects, deficiency, toxicity and some sources.
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=dminerals

I use this also coarse doesn't give nutrient info on bone, but still nice for nutrient info on things like chicken liver, beef liver, roasts, ground meat, egg, etc.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/

MuskokaMoon

Thanks so much for all the resources! Sorry for the delay in responding but it's been a busy couple of months! Raiden is now 19 weeks and 41 pounds. He is doing great with the raw diet and we are slowly getting past being "nervous puppy parents", over examining every move he makes etc etc. Appreciate the support of everyone

MapleTwinkie

Puppy Photos!!!!!