What I want to say to newbies is that most of us started out as not seriously about competing. We started out because we wanted a deeper bond with our dogs and to mentally and physically challenge our dogs (well, you will learn that the human gets challenged mentally and physically in the process too as you move along.)
As you learn with your dogs, there are sure to be hurdles and obstacles to your training. Some choose to give up, while others press on and figure it out how to move forward. To even have fun at any level, you definitely need a good instructor to guide you through the process. I strongly encourage you to go to a real trial in your area on a weekend and see for yourself. Talk to people that seem to have a blast with their dogs regardless of qualifying or not. Talk to people that have fun and are nice to their dogs. It is really a fun experience if you think of it as an outing event to learn more about what you can do with your dog.
You have a ton of wonderful information about working with your dogs but I think that there is more to enjoying it than just finding a good instructor (who knows how to teach good foundations while having fun) and putting in the work to build the bond between you and your dog. I think that you've very nicely laid out the main points that one ought to consider when participating in agility, but I do wish that you wouldn't frame things as "giving up," should someone choose not to continue.
In some sense, dogs are like people. Not everyone enjoys the same things, and some things, no matter what motivators you find for them, will never be "fun." For example most people really enjoy the beach. I am not one of them, even though I've visited some stunning beaches (some of them private) with people that I love very much who are having the time of their lives. I was happy because they were happy, but I still didn't enjoy the beach.
It's definitely important to give your full effort in trying to build bonds with your dog and making it fun for them, but I think that there are some things that are also out of one's control. @shibamistress' Leo has a dislike of doing agility in large groups for instance, and that is not something where it's a matter of figuring out how to make it fun for him, that's a social preference that he has.
Too many folks have put in a lot of effort with their dogs and themselves to learn when their dog really enjoys something with them, and when their dog is working through something they won't ever like due to the strength of the dog-owner bond. @wrylybrindle's history with Sage comes to mind. It can be a hard-earned lesson but I think that posessing that kind of judgment also ought to be recognized and not just described as "giving up," which is a phrase that quite frankly has a lot of negative connotations.
Anyway, I (and I'm sure evryone else) really appreciates all of this detailed, thoughtful information that you've given regarding working with your shibas in various activities. It's definitely inspiring.
Yeah.. I kinda felt like you were targeting me a bit. We didnt give up, we tried to make agility fun for cayenne and she still didn't like it so instead we switched to therapy dog training which suited her personality and she loved it.
It's just a matter of preference, really, and knowing your individual dog. Leo doesn't much like being around strange dogs, and never has--he didn't like his play groups or group classes either, and tended to shut down in large groups. (In Leo's classes, I would have to take him outside, where he'd do whatever I asked perfectly, but if I tried to get him to do it in class with a lot of other dogs, he'd turn his head to the wall and do nothing. He couldn't have been clearer about his preferences!) It was clear he wasn't enjoying agility, and neither was I, as it turns out (frankly, too many herding dogs and people who expected other dogs to behave like herding dogs, and in ABQ there are still too many people who train in ways I don't like, and also expect a kind of obsessive obedience in dogs that I find distasteful). So since neither of us were having fun, there seemed no point in continuing.
Could someone have worked and worked on him to get him to do agility? Possibly, but I didn't see the point myself, and knowing my boy, I don't think he ever would have enjoyed it.
The information I offered applies not to just agility, but any sports or more advanced training with a dog. It is not target to any one specific person or their dogs either.
We all get dogs because we love our dogs. Dogs need to be loved and care for. They need to be comfortable and secure with someone dedicated to their well-being. However, once they are loved, they need something more: a focus and a purpose. They need something that challenges their physical and cognitive abilities and not just live a boring life. Training/working and playing with a dog can be highly beneficial by giving our dogs richer and fuller lives.
When I get a dog, I want more than just a pretty face (I do care about certain looks and other physical traits). I want a dog that I enjoy living with, playing with. I learn how to communicate with my dogs through training/playing, so we can both learn and grow together. I understand that not everyone wants to make their dogs a very big part of their life and I respect that. I provide information for those who aspire to do more with theirs, so they know what may be possible with theirs should they want to pursue a more engaging relationship with their canine partners. I found my inspirations through Michelle H's Performance Shiba website and I am just paying it forward.
There are many things you can do with a dog with the right skills, training, motivation. You can teach a dog new tricks, change behaviors and do many amazing things. However, we don't have the time, energy and desire to invest in changing everything. That's why I said earlier that you should pick and choose your battle. Choose what you want to work on vs. just "give up". "Give up" is not necessarily a negative term. You evaluate your situations - how important certain thing is to you, how much time you have, what skills you have, your dog's temperament and what other priorities you have and make an informed decision.
When I got Maluko at almost 5 years old as a first-time dog owner 4 years ago, I never thought I would do any of the stuff that I do today with her. I spent a lot of time learning about dogs, dog training because of her and she went from being always worried about her environments to a pretty confident little dog for daily life. We do Rally, Agility, Nosework because it is something we can do together and enjoy spending time together as a team. She is not always the easiest dog to play with, but I keep at it because it is fun to learn and grow together. Are there times where I just "give up"? Sure. I tried Lure Coursing with her once and gave up because we have plenty of other things to do and this is not something I have easy access to an open field with the lure coursing thing. I also tried Barn Hunt with her and she could give a rat's ass to rats. Would I be able to train her to search for rats and enjoy it? I am sure I can. However, given the time we spend doing other stuff together (Agility and Nosework), I chose not to. I "gave up" on certain stuff, so I can have time and energy to work on other areas that interests me or my dogs or both.
My dogs are more than just a pet to me. I want them to be a big part of my life and I want them to think of me as a big part of theirs. I do this by actively engaging them in different activities/training and playing. I am more than just a care-taker/zoo-keeper/cookie dispenser/dog walker/chauffeur to dog parks. There are times when I get frustrated in our training, but we work on whatever I think is important and we all grow in the end.
This is taken way too much of my time and I better turn off the computer and go play with my dogs so more.
Hmmm....well, as I hope you know, Sandra, I have a huge amount of respect for the work you've done with your dogs. But I was quite bothered by this last part, which is dismissive of people who make different choices with their dogs: "My dogs are more than just a pet to me. I want them to be a big part of my life and I want them to think of me as a big part of theirs. I do this by actively engaging them in different activities/training and playing. I am more than just a care-taker/zoo-keeper/cookie dispenser/dog walker/chauffeur to dog parks."
We all love our dogs. Some of us may choose to work with them. Some may get involved in dog sports. some may show them. Some may breed them and show them, or breed them and not show them. Some of us take care of and live with dogs with terrible health or temperament problems and dedicate ourselves to a dog in that way. Some may simply have "pets." But that does not mean people who make different choices is somehow lesser or has less of a connection with their dogs. Why is a "pet" less than a working dog? I don't think it is, and I don't think that having a pet makes them less a big part of someone's life. There is nothing wrong with having a relationship with your dog that involves being the person who dispenses cookies in training and takes the dogs for walks, and takes good care of a dog.
We make different choices with our dogs, and I don't think one type of activity has more value than the other. There's nothing wrong with "just a pet," nor is there anything wrong with--or is it a failure--not participating in an activity that does not give dog and person pleasure.
I believe one of @sandrat888 's primary points, which was not intended to be dismissive of people who don't do a doggy sport or fun activity in general, was that people who chose not to do anything at all with their pets beyond plopping food down, a yearly Vet visit, and maybe going for a walk around the block every so often, are missing out on some great potential moments/activities to share with their canine companions.
When you need to rely on your dog to work with you in a team to get something done, the work required to do that and the level of trust that results, especially under pressure, can result in a really profound sense of "togetherness". I experienced that at my first Flyball tournament when everything meshed perfectly during a race. It seemed to be an effortless moment of synchrony with 8 dogs and their handlers where time stood still and there was great clarity.
I also have experienced that feeling outside of dog sports (because it isn't all about winning ribbons), while on unleashed walks in nature, where the dog isn't particularly doing anything special other than being itself, but you know she is with you every step and you are both sharing more than company. It's a real thrill when everything falls together at just the right moment and you know it was because of a deeper understanding of one anothers patterns and great trust that took time to build.
I don't think anyone was being dismissive either, I think sometimes there is underestimation how much one will have to work at it.
Sandra writes:
There is a concept called "transfer of value" and with proper pairing/timing and training, you can increase a dog's drive and excitement to do stuff that previously they do not like or care for.
—Often use of premack principle fits into early training, layered into beginning programs usually through play or food combo, noting the value for preferred item.
Sandra writes:
We all have something we care for, that motivates us. And by recognizing those motivators and use them properly and timely in training, you can get better performance/work out of any dog.
—Yep…. Recognizing what motivators you have to build on is critical. Every dog breed and each individual animal will have a different “drive” and desire that goes with working with a specific owner/handler. This will vary greatly under different circumstances also. My dog’s drive may be below or barely meet a herding dog’s desire in clustered chaos. However, that does not mean one can not set goals based on their own dog to pick it up a notch or two in the average environment for starters.
JaanaS writes: if the dog doesn't like something very much today, it may next week.
Agree….Tastes in play, food, and specific activities, toy(s)) can and often do change over time too. Value often depends on the associations formed, associations maintained, interactions dog to owner, interactions with other dogs, people and/or events. A lot factors go into what the dog values at any given time.
It is important to avoid ruling out capability and assume lack of desire or “drive” is the full issue with any working dog that does not do what we expect. Some dogs are not truly food or toy motivated to the fullest extent. This can be worked through but it takes longer in building value for items or even working as a team.
There are variations on the notions of “drive” too. There are many mental interpretations of “drive” depending on who you talk to and what area of the dog world they work in. Keep in mind “active” or putting a particular skill into use does not mean a dog has “drive”. Most dogs are very unfocused or focused improperly enough in the early stages of training that skill sets must be refined and developed in almost any activity.
Basically when training dogs, in the beginning, the dogs themselves often do not always recognize what they can do xyz or like to do until do xyz or until they learn do with a level of comfort.
A very simple analogy that I think of is that of kids and veggies. Many kids that are not foodies do not have desire to explore unusual looking or novel items to begin with. On average it will take exposure 10 or 15 times with the item just sitting on the plate before a child will explore the product or attempt to taste it (depends on the individual how far they will reach out to test it).
It is quite similar for some animals too, it takes some time for them to reach out of the box, dinner tray etc. to become comfortable with what you are asking to them to do in a particular environment in a particular manner. As an owner/care taker you have to jump start the exploration and encourage making decent choices first to get a mind set that blends with the rest of the plan and the rest of the team. It is nothing until there is a team effort.
Also I’d like to point out the phrase “Better performance” mentioned somewhere way above is relative to the dog and your personal relationship. Again, it’s finding the initial productive starting point, the motivators, and working to change it up as you go to increase the value in working with you/owner and what you are attempting to do. Sometimes the associations built are just as powerful, if not more so, than the initial motivator used after some work is done correctly and over time.
In addressing “Persistence” and “Drive”, they are two different things that overlap and usually need some tweaking! There are variations on the notions of “drive” as well. There are many mental interpretations of “drive” depending on who you talk to and what area of the dog world they work in. Keep in mind “active” or putting a particular skill into use does not mean a dog has “drive”. Most dogs are very unfocused or focused improperly enough in the early stages of training that skill sets must be refined and developed, and continue to be developed in order to achieve directed persistence in whatever activity you are aiming for. One must build autonomy for persistence and some direction for appropriate drive regardless of dog’s personality type.
Comments
In some sense, dogs are like people. Not everyone enjoys the same things, and some things, no matter what motivators you find for them, will never be "fun." For example most people really enjoy the beach. I am not one of them, even though I've visited some stunning beaches (some of them private) with people that I love very much who are having the time of their lives. I was happy because they were happy, but I still didn't enjoy the beach.
It's definitely important to give your full effort in trying to build bonds with your dog and making it fun for them, but I think that there are some things that are also out of one's control. @shibamistress' Leo has a dislike of doing agility in large groups for instance, and that is not something where it's a matter of figuring out how to make it fun for him, that's a social preference that he has.
Too many folks have put in a lot of effort with their dogs and themselves to learn when their dog really enjoys something with them, and when their dog is working through something they won't ever like due to the strength of the dog-owner bond. @wrylybrindle's history with Sage comes to mind. It can be a hard-earned lesson but I think that posessing that kind of judgment also ought to be recognized and not just described as "giving up," which is a phrase that quite frankly has a lot of negative connotations.
Anyway, I (and I'm sure evryone else) really appreciates all of this detailed, thoughtful information that you've given regarding working with your shibas in various activities. It's definitely inspiring.
Could someone have worked and worked on him to get him to do agility? Possibly, but I didn't see the point myself, and knowing my boy, I don't think he ever would have enjoyed it.
We all get dogs because we love our dogs. Dogs need to be loved and care for. They need to be comfortable and secure with someone dedicated to their well-being. However, once they are loved, they need something more: a focus and a purpose. They need something that challenges their physical and cognitive abilities and not just live a boring life. Training/working and playing with a dog can be highly beneficial by giving our dogs richer and fuller lives.
When I get a dog, I want more than just a pretty face (I do care about certain looks and other physical traits). I want a dog that I enjoy living with, playing with. I learn how to communicate with my dogs through training/playing, so we can both learn and grow together. I understand that not everyone wants to make their dogs a very big part of their life and I respect that. I provide information for those who aspire to do more with theirs, so they know what may be possible with theirs should they want to pursue a more engaging relationship with their canine partners. I found my inspirations through Michelle H's Performance Shiba website and I am just paying it forward.
There are many things you can do with a dog with the right skills, training, motivation. You can teach a dog new tricks, change behaviors and do many amazing things. However, we don't have the time, energy and desire to invest in changing everything. That's why I said earlier that you should pick and choose your battle. Choose what you want to work on vs. just "give up". "Give up" is not necessarily a negative term. You evaluate your situations - how important certain thing is to you, how much time you have, what skills you have, your dog's temperament and what other priorities you have and make an informed decision.
When I got Maluko at almost 5 years old as a first-time dog owner 4 years ago, I never thought I would do any of the stuff that I do today with her. I spent a lot of time learning about dogs, dog training because of her and she went from being always worried about her environments to a pretty confident little dog for daily life. We do Rally, Agility, Nosework because it is something we can do together and enjoy spending time together as a team. She is not always the easiest dog to play with, but I keep at it because it is fun to learn and grow together. Are there times where I just "give up"? Sure. I tried Lure Coursing with her once and gave up because we have plenty of other things to do and this is not something I have easy access to an open field with the lure coursing thing. I also tried Barn Hunt with her and she could give a rat's ass to rats. Would I be able to train her to search for rats and enjoy it? I am sure I can. However, given the time we spend doing other stuff together (Agility and Nosework), I chose not to. I "gave up" on certain stuff, so I can have time and energy to work on other areas that interests me or my dogs or both.
My dogs are more than just a pet to me. I want them to be a big part of my life and I want them to think of me as a big part of theirs. I do this by actively engaging them in different activities/training and playing. I am more than just a care-taker/zoo-keeper/cookie dispenser/dog walker/chauffeur to dog parks. There are times when I get frustrated in our training, but we work on whatever I think is important and we all grow in the end.
This is taken way too much of my time and I better turn off the computer and go play with my dogs so more.
We all love our dogs. Some of us may choose to work with them. Some may get involved in dog sports. some may show them. Some may breed them and show them, or breed them and not show them. Some of us take care of and live with dogs with terrible health or temperament problems and dedicate ourselves to a dog in that way. Some may simply have "pets." But that does not mean people who make different choices is somehow lesser or has less of a connection with their dogs. Why is a "pet" less than a working dog? I don't think it is, and I don't think that having a pet makes them less a big part of someone's life. There is nothing wrong with having a relationship with your dog that involves being the person who dispenses cookies in training and takes the dogs for walks, and takes good care of a dog.
We make different choices with our dogs, and I don't think one type of activity has more value than the other. There's nothing wrong with "just a pet," nor is there anything wrong with--or is it a failure--not participating in an activity that does not give dog and person pleasure.
When you need to rely on your dog to work with you in a team to get something done, the work required to do that and the level of trust that results, especially under pressure, can result in a really profound sense of "togetherness". I experienced that at my first Flyball tournament when everything meshed perfectly during a race. It seemed to be an effortless moment of synchrony with 8 dogs and their handlers where time stood still and there was great clarity.
I also have experienced that feeling outside of dog sports (because it isn't all about winning ribbons), while on unleashed walks in nature, where the dog isn't particularly doing anything special other than being itself, but you know she is with you every step and you are both sharing more than company. It's a real thrill when everything falls together at just the right moment and you know it was because of a deeper understanding of one anothers patterns and great trust that took time to build.
Sandra writes:
There is a concept called "transfer of value" and with proper pairing/timing and training, you can increase a dog's drive and excitement to do stuff that previously they do not like or care for.
—Often use of premack principle fits into early training, layered into beginning programs usually through play or food combo, noting the value for preferred item.
Sandra writes:
We all have something we care for, that motivates us. And by recognizing those motivators and use them properly and timely in training, you can get better performance/work out of any dog.
—Yep…. Recognizing what motivators you have to build on is critical. Every dog breed and each individual animal will have a different “drive” and desire that goes with working with a specific owner/handler. This will vary greatly under different circumstances also. My dog’s drive may be below or barely meet a herding dog’s desire in clustered chaos. However, that does not mean one can not set goals based on their own dog to pick it up a notch or two in the average environment for starters.
JaanaS writes: if the dog doesn't like something very much today, it may next week.
Agree….Tastes in play, food, and specific activities, toy(s)) can and often do change over time too. Value often depends on the associations formed, associations maintained, interactions dog to owner, interactions with other dogs, people and/or events. A lot factors go into what the dog values at any given time.
It is important to avoid ruling out capability and assume lack of desire or “drive” is the full issue with any working dog that does not do what we expect. Some dogs are not truly food or toy motivated to the fullest extent. This can be worked through but it takes longer in building value for items or even working as a team.
There are variations on the notions of “drive” too. There are many mental interpretations of “drive” depending on who you talk to and what area of the dog world they work in. Keep in mind “active” or putting a particular skill into use does not mean a dog has “drive”. Most dogs are very unfocused or focused improperly enough in the early stages of training that skill sets must be refined and developed in almost any activity.
Snf
Basically when training dogs, in the beginning, the dogs themselves often do not always recognize what they can do xyz or like to do until do xyz or until they learn do with a level of comfort.
A very simple analogy that I think of is that of kids and veggies. Many kids that are not foodies do not have desire to explore unusual looking or novel items to begin with. On average it will take exposure 10 or 15 times with the item just sitting on the plate before a child will explore the product or attempt to taste it (depends on the individual how far they will reach out to test it).
It is quite similar for some animals too, it takes some time for them to reach out of the box, dinner tray etc. to become comfortable with what you are asking to them to do in a particular environment in a particular manner. As an owner/care taker you have to jump start the exploration and encourage making decent choices first to get a mind set that blends with the rest of the plan and the rest of the team. It is nothing until there is a team effort.
Also I’d like to point out the phrase “Better performance” mentioned somewhere way above is relative to the dog and your personal relationship. Again, it’s finding the initial productive starting point, the motivators, and working to change it up as you go to increase the value in working with you/owner and what you are attempting to do. Sometimes the associations built are just as powerful, if not more so, than the initial motivator used after some work is done correctly and over time.
In addressing “Persistence” and “Drive”, they are two different things that overlap and usually need some tweaking! There are variations on the notions of “drive” as well. There are many mental interpretations of “drive” depending on who you talk to and what area of the dog world they work in. Keep in mind “active” or putting a particular skill into use does not mean a dog has “drive”. Most dogs are very unfocused or focused improperly enough in the early stages of training that skill sets must be refined and developed, and continue to be developed in order to achieve directed persistence in whatever activity you are aiming for. One must build autonomy for persistence and some direction for appropriate drive regardless of dog’s personality type.
Snf