Help me understand the differences between the four medium sized Nihon-Ken
I posted this in my introduction thread, but it is probably best placed here.
I am interested in learning more about the medium sized Nihon Ken.
I know the basics. All are 17-22 inches in height, 30-55 pounds. Of course a few individuals in each breed fall outside these parameters
Kai Ken - the brindle one, medium sized dog from the mountainous area of Kai where the isolated locals used it to hunt deer, boar, and bear.
Shikoku - the sesame one, medium sized dog from the mountainous area of Shikoku Island where the isolated locals used it to hunt deer, and boar.
Kishu - the white one, medium sized dog from the mountainous area of the Kishu region (which is just east of Shikoku Island) where the isolated locals used it to hunt deer and boar .
Hokkaido - the 'other' one, medium sized dog from the island of Hokkaido which the isolated locals used to it to hunt bear, but also other game.
On this I overlay the fact that there are brindle Hokkaido, white Shikoku, sesame Kishu, solid colored Kai Ken, so they are all nearly identical in size, and while each one has some colors that they are most likely to be, all actually have a wide variety of colors they can come in, and all these colors seem to be found in all these 4 breeds.
I am interested in learning more about the medium sized Nihon Ken.
I know the basics. All are 17-22 inches in height, 30-55 pounds. Of course a few individuals in each breed fall outside these parameters
Kai Ken - the brindle one, medium sized dog from the mountainous area of Kai where the isolated locals used it to hunt deer, boar, and bear.
Shikoku - the sesame one, medium sized dog from the mountainous area of Shikoku Island where the isolated locals used it to hunt deer, and boar.
Kishu - the white one, medium sized dog from the mountainous area of the Kishu region (which is just east of Shikoku Island) where the isolated locals used it to hunt deer and boar .
Hokkaido - the 'other' one, medium sized dog from the island of Hokkaido which the isolated locals used to it to hunt bear, but also other game.
On this I overlay the fact that there are brindle Hokkaido, white Shikoku, sesame Kishu, solid colored Kai Ken, so they are all nearly identical in size, and while each one has some colors that they are most likely to be, all actually have a wide variety of colors they can come in, and all these colors seem to be found in all these 4 breeds.
Comments
Often times the isolation of each area is cited as making the dogs pure, and suggesting this runs all the way back to the Ainu people's original hunting dogs. I view this as except for the Hokkaido to be a romanticization.
What I understand of Japan people and history. In 14,000 BC ancient people called the Jomon lived on the Japanese islands but also all the way to Okinawa (and all the islands in between) established by pottery style, DNA research of the people of those islands, and language study.
Later (300 BC) the Yayoi people entered Japan's largest island and brought with them improved farming techniques, the weaving of cloth, the forging of iron, and the casting of bronze (plus their own dogs). They quickly covered the main island and the two southern islands of Kyushu and Shikoku. Some Jomon people were pushed back to Hokkaido island, but many intermingled with the new people and their new technology. This resulted in Japan having two basic ethnicities, the Ainu (the unmixed descendants of the Jomon, who didn't adopt much of the new technology, continuing to hunt extensively and used furs rather than woven fabrics) and the Japanese-Japanese...sometimes called the Kamato Japanese.
Except for the Ainu people of Hokkaido island, the Yayoi people, technology, and various new languages swept over all of Japan, which means even in the isolated areas the people were speaking languages no longer related to the Ainu/Jomon tongue. While they may have been isolated and much slower to feel the changes impacting Japan from 1800 onward, I can't imagine that just like everything else, the dogs too were a mix of the original Ainu dogs plus the original Yayoi dogs who then went on to become their own breed.
This does allow me to set aside the Hokkaido dog as being different for having a different heritage.
When did the spread of genetics between these populations actually stop? Was it 500 AD giving plenty of time for what was once a single landrace to develop into distinct different landraces? was it 1850 AD, meaning there probably wasn't enough time for important distinctions to be drawn, just like the languages of all those areas were the same but with slightly different dialects versus the more serious and longer isolation where a shared languages moves beyond dialect differences into new and separate languages sharing a common tongue.
To help understand this puzzle I would like information about how these breeds are different. As I have shown, general size, coat coloration, and a body built for mountains doesn't distinguish them. But I think people put too much emphasis on coat color. Are there other structural differences that would allow a person to glance at a medium sized Nihon-Ken and recognize it as a Kai, Shikoku, or Kishu? Length of legs? Shape of skull? Ratio of height vs length? It appears that the Kai Ken is slightly smaller than the other two (and the Hokkaido is slightly larger than the 3 non pure Ainu dogs). Is this true in general? The Kai Ken also seems to be slightly less triangular in head, but as I haven't seen a ton of different examples of the breed, I don't know for sure.
Also, I think dog breeds are differentiated by what's between their ears, the genetic software of their brains. I hear that at least some of these breeds hunt silently. That would be a great distinguisher between them if only some of the breeds act such, but I wonder if it just isn't often mentioned.
So I am hoping that the people here can help highlight structural and behavioral differences between the 4 medium size Nihon-Ken
I'll only go into the two that I own-- but here it is:
Temperament--
-- My Shikoku is very anxious. A certain level of anxiety seems to be a breed trait - while TK (my Shikoku) is particularly anxious, there are others that I have met that have been really laid back - but I suspect their anxiety feeds into things like their prey drive and reactivity. The Shikoku, in my experience, is very "soft" to their handler and mine loves to please. He is very obedient, but that does not mean he is "easy". He needs a job and he needs to know that he's doing right by me.
-- My Kishu (Nami), is very smart, but has more confidence and nerve than my Shikoku. She is a lover and beams self-assurance. She becomes leery of some things, but not in the same degree as my Shikoku - and she "gets over it" very quickly. She loves cuddling and seems generally much more happy to be in any element. She does not need constant reassurance from me and while she is "handler soft", she is not anxious. She becomes frustrated and reactive when she can't get something she wants whereas my Shikoku becomes frustrated and reactive when he thinks he is not doing what I want him to do or I cannot relay what I want him to do clearly enough.
Structurally--
-- I love the Kishu's look. They look much less like a "bred dog" than the Shikoku. My Shikoku looks very artificial to me. He's a little weirdly shaped, but I think most Shikoku look a little strange. They're beautiful, but something about the arrangement of their legs and shoulders isn't "right" to me. The Kishu seems much more natural. I'm not a dog show person and it's a bit difficult for me to put into words, but there it is.
That said, there are some Shikoku I think look fantastic. It just seems to me, on average, that I enjoy the less-bred look of the Kishu to the refined Shikoku. The Kishu has a very distinguished head to me - full of lines and expression. The ears are a bit different - my Shikoku seems to have much taller, triangular ears whereas my Kishu's are much smaller and a bit rounded at the tips.
As far as genetics go, I do recall reading that perhaps the Hokkaido can be considered the "most pure" and that the Shikoku and Kishu (and other breeds) were once mixed before the introduction of Western/British breeding ideals and standardization. I don't recall where I read this... so don't quote me on it, but given how close some of these breeds were and are, it is difficult to believe they remained "entirely pure" without mixing to other Japanese dogs at one point or another.
Maybe someone else will chime in with more to say that's a bit more helpful.
In the meantime, since my Shikoku and Kishu are the same color, I have a couple pictures that might be able to show their differences a bit better than seeing a white dog next to a sesame dog...
Nami is pretty preggo in these pictures, so she doesn't look her best...
Here are two more at a similar angle and coat loss:
I'm only familiar with the Hokkaido, as I own one and I haven't been able to meet any of the other medium NK yet.
Hokkaido are pretty bold and very forward (like always wanting to be in other dogs' faces and not taking "no" for an answer). They play hard and they fight hard. In my experience a Hokkaido gives everything 100% x gusto, which isn't always easy to handle. My Hokkaido is pretty opinionated and if he doesn't like something then you will most definitely know it. Meitou likes to be a do-er. Waiting and having patience is one of the banes of his existence.
Again, just based on my experience of one, lol. So I don't know if what I said accurately depicts Hokkaido overall. That's just what my boy is like.
Oh, and they can be pretty loud. Some more than others.
Is that correct?
From what I've heard and seen, Kishu are generally the largest of the mid-sized breeds. My Kishu is very small, though, so she's not a great example of what they are on average, lol. She's about the same size as @WrylyBrindle's Juno (Kai Ken).
Thanks, that's great. I think maybe that's because the Ainu were doing more bear hunting and doing it longer than the hunters in the other regions. (Bear VERY important animals to the Ainu, all animals were gods, but bear was the chief god). Looking at dogs that actively hunt bears today (anything from Karelian used more to scare off troublesome bears to actual bear hunting hounds) they are bold dog who are full of gusto, piss-and-vinegar, brass balls, however you want to describe it. So I think that may be both a great distinguishing behavior/personality trait.
I guess it would be interesting to hear from people who hunt with either or both breeds if this holds true, or if it's just that most of Hokkiado imported into the west are fewer generations removed from hunting, while the other ones are more generations removed from hunting, hence not as full of gusto.
Shikoku are more refined looking- I agree with Crispy there.
Kai tend to have sickle tails, not cinnamon buns- I have yet to see a shikoku with a sickle tail. Kai frequently have spotted tongues to some degree.
Shikoku have a smoother 'stop' muzzle to forehead between the eyes area, where the others are more abrupt.
Hokkaido have larger, thicker paws for snow country, smaller eyes and a dense snow coat.
Kai are the least dog-reactive, have the best dog-sog social savvy.
If all dogs were exactly the same color, I think kai and kishu look the most alike of the 4, and it would be easy to pick out the shikoku and the hokka.
I have two kai, hence the rather kai-centric nature of my post.
I was going on size, (Kishu seems to be more often described as 30-60 vs 30-50)but that would explain it.
I do see the more rounded ears now.
I also see the Kishu has a sickle tail rather than a full curl over back in general carriage, as well as a more wrinkled forehead. Do you think these trends hold true for Kishu vs Shikoku, or is it, like size, just features of these two examples rather than a breed-pattern.
(also note, I realize that no feature (like sickle tail vs full curl) will be that way 100% for breed A and 0% for breed B. But features that are 80/20? that's helpful!
Can you elaborate on what you mean by smoother stop? Is it flatter vs slightly domed? Is it just less of a change in angle as it goes from forehead to stop to muzzle?
Thanks for the info from you all btw
Kishu muzzle to forehead:
Shikoku:
All of Nami's puppies came out with much more exaggerated curls than she has. None of them had sickle tails.
Crispy has better shikoku stop photos than I can find!
Sachi is one of the darkest Kai's I have ever met but even she has brindling.
Just depends on the light, and where she is in a shed. Also as they get older up until the age of 4 they brindle out just alittle more.
Thanks for the pictures. I am familiar with stop, but there can be many terms to describe all the different ways it can be. I just wanted to be sure of what you meant.
When I think of stop I always picture a little ski-er going down the skull.
I think in general what you are describing is simply LESS stop...the little ski-er is going to face a less steep angle of descent as he drops from skull to muzzle on his trip to the nose on the Shikoku vs the Kishu
Shikoku generally lack of stop though I remember hearing that the trend in Japan is leaning towards a more developed and noticeable stop.
My shikoku Miyu (right) is lacking in stop, while my shiba Tetsu (left) has a more defined stop and rounded forehead.
Shikoku nowadays have mostly become a show only dog and it is pretty rare to see them doing what they were once bred for. Kishu seem to be the most used NK for hunting these days and many have kept that tough temperament needed to tackle boars. Shikoku are pretty rude when it comes to other dogs, often not respecting that dog's personal bubble but still expecting that dog to respect theirs. Often this means that it's not very advisable to keep a shikoku and shiba together, often taking a good deal of work to get them to tolerate each other.
Here's a blog you may one to check out (if you haven't already). This one is run and written by a prominent forum member and has a lot of great insight on the medium NK. There are some amazing hunting stories and footage, definitely a great read. http://nihonken.blogspot.com/
Yea I was tying to remember if I ever saw spotting on the tongue of a dutch shepherd or brindle greyhound.
@cdenny
I may have not been as exact as I should have about color. You are right that as the brindle gene is a recessive, and so you need two pair so two brindle dogs will always have every pup brindle, so the only way a dog would be 'solid' is so much black that there is very little red for the brindle to show up in.
I should have probably said that Kai = aways brindle but brindle isn't always Kai as how I worded coat color isn't a sufficient guide for determining breed amongst the 4.
I should also say that I THINK that the pictures I've seen of brindle Nihon-Ken that are something other than Kai-Ken have been Hokkaidos. Does Kishu and Shikoku ever pop out brindle?
also @cdenny, how often does cream pop up in Kai Ken?
I see this thread here, http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/6215/cream-kai-male/p1
I know in other breeds frequently they have established colors X & Y under the assumption that a dog who shows up with color Z probably has a different breed his background...but I also know there are times when there has always been a color or coat pattern that was present it just wasn't acknowledged by the breeders. For instance Labrador Retriever comes in Black, Yellow, and Chocolate. But for a long time chocolate was not 'approved' so pups with that color were quietly given away as pets or culled. Same with Sennenhunds in Switzerland, they finally recognized a very dark brown alternative to black for the tri-color pattern, It was always there, it just wasn't acknowledge.
So I wonder, do you think cream is something that while not listed in the 'standard' for Kai Ken is something the population simply carries, or when a cream Kai pops up is it an indication of a non-Kai ancestor back a few generations?
do you agree with the earlier poster about Shikoku temperament?
It does seem like there is starting to be a very distinct show version of Shikoku structurally, but I also find this page http://www.shikoku-ken.org/about-shikoku-ken/appearance/ taking about working type vs show type.
I am thinking more of how the dogs existed in the 1920s and 30s.
In the 1920's and 30's when the NIPPO was forming and they were looking across Japan for remaining native populations of dogs, why was it that the small primitive spitz type in village A kept as a pet was seen as THE SAME breed as the small primitive spitz type in village B (that was +100km apart)...but when the medium primitive spitz type in mountain region A kept as a hunter of deer, boar, and bear was seen as a DIFFERENT breed than the medium primitive spitz type in mountainous region B kept as a hunter of deer, boar, and bear.
I assume the investigators spotted some differences to allow them in the case of the small dog to recognize a single breed in many areas, and then turn around and spot distinct breeds for the medium sizes.
What structural and/or behavioral differences were enough to declare these separate breeds? Or was it political? Or possibly arbitrary?
Brindle is dominant to non-brindle, but recessive to dominant black.
Brindle Kishu--
I posted some brindle Kishu on the yushoku Kishu thread a little bit ago.
Many of the Kishu colors are on this thread, actually, so it might be interesting to you.
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/5428/yushoku-kishu-another-pic-added-411/p1
There is a forum member in Japanese Akitas I was speaking with who hypothesized that the brighter white a dog is, the more likely that white is "covering" darker colors (using the example that her double-brindle white dog is brighter white than her genetically sable white dog). I wonder if the same is true of Kishu Ken.
Hunting vs. Show Shikoku--
--The "hunting" type Shikoku Ken are practically nonexistant at this point, I'd wager. It's not so much that the "show" type Shikoku is emerging as that the "hunting" type put on display on that website is different to the norm due to breeding for temperament and ability rather than adhering strictly to the standards.
NIPPO breed standards--
--NIPPO doesn't explicitly separate the breeds in the standard that I can see. There is one standard for all mid-sized breeds, one for small, and one for large.
Here is the NIPPO standard for the mid-sized breeds. It doesn't really say "this is a Kai dog, this is a Kishu dog, this is a Shikoku dog," etc, like how the UKC or AKC would do, it just tells you, overall, what makes the mid-sized breeds and what makes a Japanese dog. It appears that the rest comes down to the judges.
http://www.shibaweb.com/nihonken.htm
http://www.oldtimefarmshepherd.org/current-collie-articles/difference-english-shepherds-scotch-collies/
about half-way down the page they have 4 closely related and somewhat similar dogs, then have a 'guide' to what features are most associated with each.
Have you ever seen something like that done with the midsized Nihon-Ken?
I know the 4 breeds share the same standard or the standard is broad enough to encompass one in the other, but I thought that NIPPO declared 6 distinct breeds to be national treasures, the 4 mediums plus Shiba and Akita, which I guess I always assumed meant that even if the standard for the mediums was written in such a way that it could apply to ALL the mediums, they were still viewed as 4 distinctly different breeds. But maybe I am missing something
I believe the modern Shiba is a combined effort of Sanin and Shinshu? The other breeds (Mino and Jomon) exist today as independent breeds, don't they?
Mid sized breeds not mentioned-- Higo Rou Ken and Ryukyu Inu?
I also remember seeing old pictures labelled "Mikawa Inu". I think it's listed as an alternate breed name for Shikoku now, but the dogs I saw labelled as such looked much more like the modern "American Akita".
@Calia - I wondered if the anxiety thing was linked to showing due to the temperament judges are looking for. I suspect it is/was easy to breed for an anxious temperament rather than a the focus I see in the Kishu with Nami, her pups, and the Kishu I met, once the breed was no longer used primarily for hunting.
Re: tails - I don't think any pressure exists in the Kishu based on the healthy mixture of tail types I've seen in show images, but again... I don't show my dogs. I just started out. I know that my friend breeds NIPPO Shiba and she prefers sickle tails to curled tails and wishes she had a sickle tail in her program (but my understanding is that they are very difficult to find in Shibas). I think Peggy at O'Ikon has a sickle-tailed Shikoku, as well... but the norm seemed to be tightly curled.
The sneaky Shikoku to Kishu crosses were to make "better" yushoku Kishu (colored Kishu) since colored Kishu tend to be pretty "washed out" in most cases, I think? I don't recall the story about imitating a famous or desired line - just that Shikoku tend to have bold, saturated colors whereas it is difficult to get a yushoku Kishu with the same bold, saturated colors.