My new Kai Ken keeps pooping in the house...

edited November 2014 in General
So Kiba does this thing where he poops as he is running away from me to put his collar on to take him outside to poop...

Things I have noticed
1. Definitely not diarrhea, good solid poops
2. Only does it when I am trying to put his collar on
3. Proceeds to not poop any additional outside
4. Is doing it when I come home from work or errands so he is going less than 8 hours from his last pooping
5. He still doesn't eat that much so surprised he can even poop more than once a day
6. I walk the dogs 3-4X a day mostly depending on if Kiba has eaten a lot of food or Taro is being a picky pooper.

The run down when I come home follows.

I say hi to Taro because she is excited and I grab the leashes. I put Taro's on first because it is easier. Currently Kiba is gated off when we aren't home since we can't trust the dogs alone together yet. He gets the bathroom and master bedroom to roam around. He is always running around at the gate when I come home, so I go over and remove the gate which then means he starts running around everywhere. I am trying to corner him so I can put on his collar and leash (we use a martingale for him hence why it isn't left on him when we aren't on walks). Not every time, but too many times as I am trying to do this, he poops as he runs away from me. He also NEVER poops when we aren't home. I've never come home to surprises except one time when he did actually have really bad diarrhea from when I changed his diet too quickly. He has now been on the same diet for about a month (same as Taro's) and I haven't made any changes.

Any suggestions? He also has never peed in the house and he is almost 3 years old. I got him from the Portland breeder rehome so he wasn't abused and was well trained prior to me getting him. Do you think it is more of a stress/fear thing versus him thinking its ok to poop in the house?

Comments

  • I have a strong strong feeling it's a stress thing, especially since kai are a more sensitive breed in general, and kiba has been rehomed (regardless of how good his situation was then and im sure how great he is now). One main reason being you say it's when he's "running away from you to put his collar on"...it may be the collar? Does it look like he's excited running, or scared? Stress can come from excitement too..For whatever reason that could be a source of stress...you may have to figure out the reason behind it, but im leaning far, far away from it being a "he thinks it's ok" thing. :).
  • Fear pooping.
  • Is there really a reason you can't leave the collar on him. It sounds like the stress of putting to collar on it causing the issue.
  • aykayk
    edited November 2014
    I'd either keep him in a buckle/safe collar with a short lead on him that you can attach your walking lead to, or before you let him loose out of the gate, set-up a loop of lead so his head goes through it before he's let out.
  • He is always running around at the gate when I come home, so I go over and remove the gate which then means he starts running around everywhere. I am trying to corner him so I can put on his collar and leash (we use a martingale for him hence why it isn't left on him when we aren't on walks). Not every time, but too many times as I am trying to do this, he poops as he runs away from me.
    Sounds like fear or anxiety. The cornering really seems to freak him out. Does he like food? Coax him to you positively? But why do you have to let him out of the gate first? Hop over and collect him safely before letting him loose. If you are afraid of the martingale getting caught, keep a simple tag collar on him in the house - also, what if he bolted from the house without the martingale on yet? He needs a collar.
  • He's literally sacred shitless over the prospect of being collared.
  • I would leave the collar on him. My pups have limited slip collars on all the time, even when I am not at home. The stress of the collar going over his head is probably causing the fear poop. Try that for a couple of days and see what happens.
  • I have a fear of just using a normal collar on him. Since he is still a huge flight risk and he jerks from time to time when we are out walking, I have a fear of him slipping out of a normal buckle collar hence why I use the martingale. But the fear of leaving the martingale on him is that he could catch it on something, choke and die.

    Maybe I can adjust the buckle collar and give it a few test walks when I've already been home for a while and he isn't so stressed out.

    Also he isn't food motivated. He only sometimes takes food from me. If he is in his crate or other safe place, he isn't stressed or scared putting the collar and leash on.

    I think I need to just be quiet when I come home and kind of let Kiba do his thing. Maybe just sit and be quiet and pet my shiba while he roams around and goes back into his crate on his own?

    He also never has seemed to mind having the collar put on him. He does get stressed sometimes when I am taking it off.
  • Can you maybe calm him down before trying to put the collar on? Shelby is afraid of baths and definitely not food motivated, so I sit down next to her and pet her before bath time. She calms down and willingly goes into the bathroom with me.
    Or maybe you could try a slip lead. Just leave a big loop and let him walk into it.
  • Martingales are only marginally more inescapable than buckle collars, FYI. Since they are limited slip, if a dog pulls hard enough it will free itself. And the constriction certainly doesn't help the stress of the situation when the dog is in flight mode.

    Your best bet for inescapable hardware would be a harness with a girth strap. The girth strap is important, because a dog's waist is much smaller than its ribcage it can't back out of the harness.
  • I think the chase is probably what's scaring him, otherwise he would have snapped when his collar is messed with.
  • I have a fear of just using a normal collar on him. Since he is still a huge flight risk and he jerks from time to time when we are out walking, I have a fear of him slipping out of a normal buckle collar hence why I use the martingale. But the fear of leaving the martingale on him is that he could catch it on something, choke and die.
    No, the suggestion was to use both. A tag collar is not for walking, it's identification only, but you can still use it in the house.

    I agree that a martingale can be slipped too. A harness is safer. Does he freak with a harness too?
    If he is in his crate or other safe place, he isn't stressed or scared putting the collar and leash on.
    I still don't get why you let him loose just to chase and corner him. So he's fine in "safe" places.. Does he consider the gated space safe? Like I said before, leash him up there. Or get him to go into the crate. Does he know a command to go in to the crate? Maybe work on that.
  • edited November 2014
    I don't close his gate to his crate while I am gone. I want him to be able to get familiar with some of the house and be able to interact with my shiba if they are both are at the gate. It is just with the new place, he wanders out of his crate. Before at our old place he would just run right back in his crate and then wait for me to put the collar on. He only runs when I take the gate down to then put the collar on him.

    He doesn't freak out with the harness but it is harder to get it on him because he gets pretty stiff when you handle him and I don't want to pull his legs and then start freaking him out.

    I think the gate is considered his safe place and me taking down the gate versus putting the collar on him while the gate is still up might be a better option as well. And good point about a tag collar. Right now he can't really run out of the house. We set up a whole gate thing for the doors (which doesn't entirely mean that if he was super freaked out that he could jump it). So I have one that is a tag collar and can use in the meantime.

    Also at this point, I can't seem to do any training with him. He is still pretty unresponsive to everything except chicken and cheese sometimes...only when he is in his safe places.

    All great advice, thanks everyone!
  • @jwallwalrus He needs time. It could well be 6+ months before he'll be bonded close enough to constructively train. Right now he needs to Bond with you just focus on that. Get the stinkest treats ever and when he comes to inspect or is in a little more than arms reach drop one or hand it too him. Same thING if you walk by him don't force an interaction just drop one so he starts to assosciate you with GOOD. Even if he isn't treat motivated if you get stinky wet treats like zukes or tricky trainers he might inspect and like it. I kid you not I had to use taco bell for the first couple of weeks because that is all SachI would respond to. (She went from an adolescent trim 24 lbs in the first year to 28 but she loves me! Shes back down to 26 which is her healthy adult weight)

    Regarding the collar. Right now you just need to work on every interaction being positive. If the collar in is scary get a buckle martingale so it doesn't go over his head but around his neck. Or get a harness and just have him wear it during the day and leash him that way. It's still going over the head (and the one most of us use with the girth strap is...can't think if the name @hinata23 would know among others), but it's close to inescapable.

    Finally my suggestion is get a limited slip and a clip harness that doesn't regre anything over the head just clip around neck and after shoulders. Have him wear both for a couple of days straight so you just have to double leash him (one for the collar one for the harness). He can see leasing is good nothing traumatic happened we love walks! Then keep the collar on and take the harness off and work your way down. Do not corner him to leash him or in his safe space. I designated my room as if she was there I wouldn't bother her or try and leash, medicate, etc. But by the door where we collar and leash she knows I'm going to harness her (she hates on principle), touch her feet or clean her ears, but only there. Have him drag a leash on the harness if needed so that when you release him it's as easy as picking that leash up, leading him to the door, squattING down to leash the collar (weird but my kai is super flinchy still when I bend over where she is happy if I squat)

    Coming from having an emotional dog and also a rehomed adult kai, it takes time. It will feel like 2 steps forward 1.5 back. Take every small improvement as a win. 2 years later I have the most amazing dog who is still bonding with me and opening up to me. We have always been top dog in our training classes and got into nose work, but that's all built on our bond. Take that time to establish a solid bond. It will be worth it.
  • Oh. So you've moved. That will set him back a bit again.

    Lol, I'm not quite getting the setup you have with the crates and gates. A picture would help. ;)
  • yes, he's scared, that's why he is pooping. And the stiff body posture when you put a harness on may never go away. I've had Leo since he was 8 weeks old (he's 2.5 now) and he is still like that, and still runs when I put get his harness out, though he's also super excited to go!

    Anyway, you can leave a limited slip/martingale collar on. I don't now, but I did do it with my Shiba girl that passed. I had it fitted so it wasn't too tight, but was tighter then a regular collar, so if she did get caught on something (which she never did in a couple of years of wearing it), she could struggle her way out of it. When I walked her, I used a harness. I used the martingale in the house, rather than a buckle collar, because it gave me some more control, esp. since I often had to catch her outside and leash her to get her inside or had to leash her in the house away from the other dogs (she had a lot of health issues).

    And yes, it may take awhile for him to adjust--6 months, a year--but he'll come around!
  • Hey this is my girls thread. I think you're facing many of the same issues. There is fantastic advice in here (check out the beginning) if you want to 1) know you're nOT alone and 2) get multiple solutions from other with emotional dogs.
    http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/8014/raito-no-hoshihime-039sachi039-spam-10-24#Item_266
  • Kai can be really sensitive to body pressure. I've left martingales with a leash tab or drag, and harnesses, on both of the Kai boys who have been here, who did not like anything over their heads, even if they were inside or in a crate. The risk of them injuring themselves by the collar catching was so small compared to the flight risk. I would leave him in something like a Ruffwear webmaster with a 5ft leash attached if he were mine. That way you aren't leaning over him and can just step on an end and pick it up and start walking.
  • I'd leave the collar on him PLUS have him do a "sit". If you can work on his sit during the day at random times, and treat him so sits are fun good things, then when you get home and are ready to take them out you'll have him to do a sit. Then clip the leash on > go immediately outside.

    This way he doesn't need to get cornered, as he's stationary + is ready for a treat, and you get to put the leash on and go.

    Worth a shot :)
  • @jwallwalrus Have you tried doing some clicker training with Kiba?
  • I haven't tried any clicker training with him yet. I've had him for less than 2 months and right now he doesn't really respond to anything I do. The fact that he is not food or toy motivated at this point kind of makes any training hard. I figured it would be another month or so until he feels comfortable enough to actually take treats/food from me.

    He does take some food, bits of chicken, cheese, etc but only when he is in a very specific safe place. Anything outside of the safe place, he snubs it.
  • Oh of course, I know that the re-homing process can be a difficult time! I've never re-homed an adult Kai so I can't imagine exactly what you're going through, but one of my Kais is not food motivated so I understand that aspect of the situation.

    In the event that you would eventually like to try clicker training in the future, I'd suggest doing some "loading the clicker" training with Kiba, which you could start today if you wanted.
    To load the clicker, you don't have to expect him to perform any task/command, just simply "click" and then give him a treat afterwards. At first, I'd do this in his safe place(s). Then once he gets the idea that "clicks" = treats, you can start doing some "clicking" in other parts of the house. Once he settles in more, gains more confidence, and builds that trust, then you can really hit the ground running with the clicker since he'll already have a strong association with the "clicks" and treats. (Of course you have a lot of other things to focus on right now. This is just a suggestion :) )
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