wait, I thought the only qualifier was that I had to have raised the dog as a pup? Dire Wolf is in the Canus family. Or does it have to be in the Canus Familiaris family.
Forget about catching rabbits. Raymond Coppinger theorized that dogs couldn't had evolved as hunting companion because in his experience his rabbiting dogs weren't able to procure enough meat to feed himself.
Yeah, no crap, genius, rabbit-meat is not enough to sustain anyone. It would require hunting deer or moose to procure enough calorie.
Forget about catching rabbits. Raymond Coppinger theorized that dogs couldn't had evolved as hunting companion because in his experience his rabbiting dogs weren't able to procure enough meat to feed himself.
Yeah, no crap, genius, rabbit-meat is not enough to sustain anyone. It would require hunting deer or moose to procure enough calorie.
That's not necessarily true..
And remember that I said there are boar on the island too. Kai ken and jindo have proven themselves to be sufficient boar killers. Much more so than laikas to my knowledge. http://app.f.m-cocolog.jp/t/typecast/1438865/1452785/76853259 And I'm still surprised that no one has said kelpie or heeler much. They've proved themselves to be as good at survival as other breeds such as curs.
Here's a good survival dog. A grey x kelpie Has prick ears, long legs, scissor bite, rough coat. Wouldn't mind having this guy in a survival situation.
Forget about catching rabbits. Raymond Coppinger theorized that dogs couldn't had evolved as hunting companion because in his experience his rabbiting dogs weren't able to procure enough meat to feed himself.
Yeah, no crap, genius, rabbit-meat is not enough to sustain anyone. It would require hunting deer or moose to procure enough calorie.
Rabbit shouldn't be a main source of food, they are such a lean meat that you can actually get sick due to not ingesting enough fat. They are a high protein meat but the should still only be a secondary source.
And remember that I said there are boar on the island too. Kai ken and jindo have proven themselves to be sufficient boar killers. Much more so than laikas to my knowledge. http://app.f.m-cocolog.jp/t/typecast/1438865/1452785/76853259 And I'm still surprised that no one has said kelpie or heeler much. They've proved themselves to be as good at survival as other breeds such as curs.
I was referring to Raymond Coppinger's dismal of northern hunting culture of using dogs on reindeer and moose based on his own assessment of rabbiting.
The earliest wolf-human associations were found around reindeer kill-sites.
But yes, I am aware boars have a potential to have a lot of meat, but deer are easier to run to exhaustion. With boars, you have to kill the damn thing, and you also risk losing a dog. On top of that, if the dog catches and gets injured or killed, then the dog would need to be replaced.
As far as breeds go, my knowledge of them is not as intimate as American hounds or northern hunting spitzes. So, I don't really feel comfortable making a comment about a breed I don't have personal experience with, and only read through Internet or books. Especially if I don't speak or read Japanese
Just like how you are not aware of hunting spitzes being used on boars in Sweden (most popular one is Grawatchel and Jamthund), Ukraine, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Belarus, Russia et al-- language barrier. There are probably more proven spitzes in eastern Europe than all of Japan just based on number in hunters of Eastern Europe versus Asia. So, let us not get into the whole "there are more proven _____" game. Someone is bound to lose just based on statistical probability.
Under that assumption, there are probably more continental gundogs proven on boars world-wide than any other group of dogs. If I put my personal biases aside and look at registration numbers and numbers of hunters, there are probably more proven Drahthaars and Jadgterriers than any other hunting breed in the world.
That's probably why no one listed the Australian breeds. Very few people actually know they are used as "bailers", and usually it's only the Ozzies who know that.
But if I want an all-purpose dog which fit your hypothetical scenario of being good on boars, rabbits, deer and cats, one of the German hunting breeds (eg. Deutsch-Drahthaar or Deutscher Wachtelhund) would actually be better than any hunting spitz or hound.
But if I want to hunt both small-game (eg. cats) and run deer, then cur-dog or Laika would fit that bill. Only because I know what to expect from those dogs seeing I don't have a whole of experience with other breeds, and I know those methods are the most cost-effective way of procuring the most amount of calorie with the least amount of risk to the dog and myself.
And remember that I said there are boar on the island too. Kai ken and jindo have proven themselves to be sufficient boar killers. Much more so than laikas to my knowledge. http://app.f.m-cocolog.jp/t/typecast/1438865/1452785/76853259 And I'm still surprised that no one has said kelpie or heeler much. They've proved themselves to be as good at survival as other breeds such as curs.
I think you're mistaken, Jindo and Kai, as well as Kishu and Shikoku, bay their game (boar in this case) so the hunter can dispatch it. Some may catch the boar, but it's incredibly rare for a dog to kill a boar.
Even large catch dogs don't kill boar.
Also, Laika are very well known for hunting boar. Just as well known for hunting boar as the native Nihon Ken are.
PS: the darker colored Kai in the pictures at the URL you posted is Sakura, my male Kai's (Akashi), mother.
Though for the most part, I would find other ways to hunt and survive that doesn't rely on dogs. If this survival thing is long term, I'll be living it far beyond the dog's lifespan and you can only go so far with breeding related descendents. The machete can be used to make other types of weapons such a spears, bow and arrows (with enough practice/knowledge), and wooden knives. The weapons may be a bit rough but good enough to get started with, once I have my first kill then bone weapons can be made. If there's any hollow shafted plants like bamboo then I can have me some blow darts, and I would also build a stone sling out of plants or sinew. Find a sapling and turn that into a fishing pole, make a hook out of cat claws or bones, and line out of plant fiber.
Actually, that's a very interesting thought. A lot of the old methods of harvesting animals were banned by hunting laws because they were too effective-- like using glue to catch birds; or banning hounds from running deer.
So, really, if one want to be a "survivor" just take a look at what was banned-- and what poachers use.
And remember that I said there are boar on the island too. Kai ken and jindo have proven themselves to be sufficient boar killers. Much more so than laikas to my knowledge. http://app.f.m-cocolog.jp/t/typecast/1438865/1452785/76853259 And I'm still surprised that no one has said kelpie or heeler much. They've proved themselves to be as good at survival as other breeds such as curs.
I think you're mistaken, Jindo and Kai, as well as Kishu and Shikoku, bay their game (boar in this case) so the hunter can dispatch it. Some may catch the boar, but it's incredibly rare for a dog to kill a boar.
Even large catch dogs don't kill boar.
Also, Laika are very well known for hunting boar. Just as well known for hunting boar as the native Nihon Ken are.
PS: the darker colored Kai in the pictures at the URL you posted is Akashi, my male Kai's, mother.
I never said it was common did I? I just said it happens. I've never seen a laika kill a boar at all. I've got some bookmarks of jindoes killing their own prey, I'll try to find them. And that dog is your Kai's mother? Nice. You must have some good dogs.
I never said it was common did I? I just said it happens. I've never seen a laika kill a boar at all. I've got some bookmarks of jindoes killing their own prey, I'll try to find them. And that dog is your Kai's mother? Nice. You must have some good dogs.
Well human mothers have been known to lift vehicles off children who have been run over, and some humans have survived falls from incredibly high altitudes (like skydiving), and there are stories of humans killing bears and lions with their bare hands...
But all those things are extraordinary feats. It would be silly to depend on those extraordinary situations for your survival, right? Same applies to choosing a dog breed for survival... Why choose a breed because of some anecdote about one of them killing a boar?
Put another way: I've owned and raised a LOT of Kai Ken, I wouldn't expect any of them to be able to kill a boar.
I have a Jindo as well, he's a gritty little man, but he wouldn't be able to kill a boar.
Maybe like 5 Kai or Jindo could, but we're limited to just 2 dog in this situation.
I see where you're coming from and I agree. Though it is rare, I think that dogs can take small/young boar around their size. ( http://www.chatong.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=freeboard&wr_id=4063&cid=999 ) but again, very rare occurrence. Boar are no joke (I've been attacked by one), and even wild canids are wary of them.
Kais are small dogs rarely above 40lbs. Boars get close to 100lbs. Boars generally stay with their ...dam?, for a little more than half a year. And put on sufficient bulk in that time. In my honest opinion of a non boar hunter, according to the theory that they would be taking on a boar their size successfully Kais would have to also contend with the adolescent's 100lbs mother as well, No?
I never said it was common did I? I just said it happens. I've never seen a laika kill a boar at all. I've got some bookmarks of jindoes killing their own prey, I'll try to find them. And that dog is your Kai's mother? Nice. You must have some good dogs.
There are more than enough videos of Laikas ripping boars to bits. Usually they are reported for extreme violence. One time someone posted a video of a pack shredding a boar to bits in Moldova to an international group. The administration ended up removing it, and a few people petitioned YouTube to delete the video.
Keep in mind, those same people would probably censor the pictures of Jindos killing boars too to maintain a good self-image to the majority of people who don't want to see gore. So, you're lucky those documentations come from a culture which is not threatened by animal welfare activism on a daily basis.
Just because you don't speak the language, it doesn't mean evidence don't exist. Not everyone speak English.
Besides, I wouldn't want a dog of any breed to do that to a hog. They get cut up really badly, even with the proper equipment and protective gears.
Someone once found a video of a Kishu tearing up a boar, and the dog got hurt really badly. I forgot where since the language was in cyrillic, not Latin alphabet.
There are probably videos of other breeds doing the same, but I haven't seen them because I don't know the language and I don't belong to those groups. I do know people with German dogs pride themselves in dogs killing seals and such though.
But such macho attitude are rare in the hunting world because it's a good way of getting your sport banned by non-hunters; so most people censor themselves.
Kais are small dogs rarely above 40lbs. Boars get close to 100lbs. Boars generally stay with their ...dam?, for a little more than half a year. And put on sufficient bulk in that time. In my honest opinion of a non boar hunter, according to the theory that they would be taking on a boar their size successfully Kais would have to also contend with the adolescent's 100lbs mother as well, No?
40 pounds is not small. It's medium. That pretty obviously didn't happen up there so no, Not every time at least. Some boar may have been separated from their mothers ,or perhaps abandoned. And small boar exist. Too many possibilities to say for sure.
Keep in mind boars (males) and sows (females) tend to live two totally separate lives. Boars will usually stay with a sounder (pack of hogs) for about a year and a half until they sexually mature to go out on their own. Sows will sexually mature within their first year of life and can reproduce at 6 months.
As boars matur they become solitary animals and travel long distances looking for sows to breed and to fight other boars. Sows tend to stay within a smaller proximity where there's good food, water, and cover.
As for dogs physically killing hogs, you won't see a lot of that with a big nasty boar that had some big cutters. I would say it's extremely difficult for most predators to successfully take on and kill a mature boar without sustaining some sort of injury unless the boar is sick or injured.
40 pounds is not small. It's medium. That pretty obviously didn't happen up there so no, Not every time at least. Some boar may have been separated from their mothers ,or perhaps abandoned. And small boar exist. Too many possibilities to say for sure.
40lbs is the max, many of the kai I've met aren't much bigger than my 20lb (14.5" at the shoulder) shiba. My shikoku is 37lbs and equivalent in size to some kai males, she's just shy of 17" tall and I significantly shorter than my huskies (who are both are around 23" tall, 65lbs and 53lbs respectively). Even if she had excellent drive and in top shape, I still can't picture her to be able to kill or even do any significant damage to a 100lb+ boar. And to be quite honest, to expect that out of a dog in a survival setting is really not the best way to go.
If a dog is going to be used as a key tool in your own survival, then it really isn't ideal to expect them to go head on and physical with any animal that has the potential to do significant damage. Even a squirrel or rabbit can get a lucky bite in and cause enough damage to make the dog practically useless, so throwing them into a situation (catch, wrestle, or kill large game) where they have a high likelihood of getting fatally wounded is poor use of the dog. The less direct contact with the big game, i.e. baying instead of catching, the less of a chance the dog would need special medical attention (you're not going to find any hospitals in the middle of nowhere). And this is assuming that the dog has good instincts and a good head on its shoulders, you may wind up with a dog that won't be able to quite figure out how to handle certain game even if the general breed description says they can.
I can tell you that a angry 60lb hog can be as dangerous as a 200lber. Bottom line is a one on one with a hog, a dog is likely to lose no matter what breed. Hogs are just terribly unpredictable animals that can unzip a dog in seconds.
What I find interesting is every culture associated with wilderness have bay-dogs (Siberians, North American aboriginals, Australian aboriginals, African bushmen et al), while settled cultures (Europe, Polyensia et al) have catch-dogs.
Similarly if we look at diets of hunter-gatherers in pigs' habitats they seldom dine on boars preferring horned or antlered game. They even prefer porcupine over tusked animals. Yet agricultural societies widely celebrate boar-hunts.
Even wolves prefer large deer over boars; with the exception of the Italian peninsula where the roe deer are smaller than boars and the wolves there have an appetite for pigs.
Well, even in the old hunting accounts in North America, sportsmen largely avoided peccaries, not because of how small they were, but how difficult they were to dispatch.
Not to say people don't eat pigs, but there is a hierarchy of preference depending on the season and abundance of game.
40 pounds is not small. It's medium. That pretty obviously didn't happen up there so no, Not every time at least. Some boar may have been separated from their mothers ,or perhaps abandoned. And small boar exist. Too many possibilities to say for sure.
Size is subjective. In my area, anything inbetween 15 to 40 pounds would be "small", 40 to 70 pounds would be medium and 70 to 90 pounds would be "large". My dog is 62 pounds and 24" tall, and to many people, he's on the small side of "medium".
But in the big cities, 15 to 30 pound would be considered as "medium".
I guess you also have to take into consideration the fact that hogs are invasive, and so may not have been around in large quantities in America way back when... and so, they couldn't have hunted them.
I guess you also have to take into consideration the fact that hogs are invasive, and so may not have been around in large quantities in America way back when... and so, they couldn't have hunted them.
Never knew peccaries are invasive. But yeah, Theodore Roosevelt and others commented on how thick-skinned they were in the Brazilian jungles and the difficulty of killing them.
Comments
Jesse
http://woodtrekker.blogspot.ca/2013/09/living-off-land-delusions-and.html
Laika or a cur-dog.
Forget about catching rabbits. Raymond Coppinger theorized that dogs couldn't had evolved as hunting companion because in his experience his rabbiting dogs weren't able to procure enough meat to feed himself.
Yeah, no crap, genius, rabbit-meat is not enough to sustain anyone. It would require hunting deer or moose to procure enough calorie.
What is that reference? Piers Anthony? My memory is patchy.
And remember that I said there are boar on the island too. Kai ken and jindo have proven themselves to be sufficient boar killers. Much more so than laikas to my knowledge.
http://app.f.m-cocolog.jp/t/typecast/1438865/1452785/76853259
And I'm still surprised that no one has said kelpie or heeler much. They've proved themselves to be as good at survival as other breeds such as curs.
Has prick ears, long legs, scissor bite, rough coat. Wouldn't mind having this guy in a survival situation.
Rabbit shouldn't be a main source of food, they are such a lean meat that you can actually get sick due to not ingesting enough fat. They are a high protein meat but the should still only be a secondary source.
http://www.raising-rabbits.com/rabbit-starvation.html
Yes, fat is actually good for you and needed, especially in survival circumstance that will cause you to burn a lot of energy.
The earliest wolf-human associations were found around reindeer kill-sites.
But yes, I am aware boars have a potential to have a lot of meat, but deer are easier to run to exhaustion. With boars, you have to kill the damn thing, and you also risk losing a dog. On top of that, if the dog catches and gets injured or killed, then the dog would need to be replaced.
As far as breeds go, my knowledge of them is not as intimate as American hounds or northern hunting spitzes. So, I don't really feel comfortable making a comment about a breed I don't have personal experience with, and only read through Internet or books. Especially if I don't speak or read Japanese
Just like how you are not aware of hunting spitzes being used on boars in Sweden (most popular one is Grawatchel and Jamthund), Ukraine, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Belarus, Russia et al-- language barrier. There are probably more proven spitzes in eastern Europe than all of Japan just based on number in hunters of Eastern Europe versus Asia. So, let us not get into the whole "there are more proven _____" game. Someone is bound to lose just based on statistical probability.
Under that assumption, there are probably more continental gundogs proven on boars world-wide than any other group of dogs. If I put my personal biases aside and look at registration numbers and numbers of hunters, there are probably more proven Drahthaars and Jadgterriers than any other hunting breed in the world.
That's probably why no one listed the Australian breeds. Very few people actually know they are used as "bailers", and usually it's only the Ozzies who know that.
But if I want an all-purpose dog which fit your hypothetical scenario of being good on boars, rabbits, deer and cats, one of the German hunting breeds (eg. Deutsch-Drahthaar or Deutscher Wachtelhund) would actually be better than any hunting spitz or hound.
But if I want to hunt both small-game (eg. cats) and run deer, then cur-dog or Laika would fit that bill. Only because I know what to expect from those dogs seeing I don't have a whole of experience with other breeds, and I know those methods are the most cost-effective way of procuring the most amount of calorie with the least amount of risk to the dog and myself.
Even large catch dogs don't kill boar.
Also, Laika are very well known for hunting boar. Just as well known for hunting boar as the native Nihon Ken are.
PS: the darker colored Kai in the pictures at the URL you posted is Sakura, my male Kai's (Akashi), mother.
So, really, if one want to be a "survivor" just take a look at what was banned-- and what poachers use.
And that dog is your Kai's mother? Nice. You must have some good dogs.
But all those things are extraordinary feats. It would be silly to depend on those extraordinary situations for your survival, right? Same applies to choosing a dog breed for survival... Why choose a breed because of some anecdote about one of them killing a boar?
Put another way: I've owned and raised a LOT of Kai Ken, I wouldn't expect any of them to be able to kill a boar.
I have a Jindo as well, he's a gritty little man, but he wouldn't be able to kill a boar.
Maybe like 5 Kai or Jindo could, but we're limited to just 2 dog in this situation.
Keep in mind, those same people would probably censor the pictures of Jindos killing boars too to maintain a good self-image to the majority of people who don't want to see gore. So, you're lucky those documentations come from a culture which is not threatened by animal welfare activism on a daily basis.
Just because you don't speak the language, it doesn't mean evidence don't exist. Not everyone speak English.
Besides, I wouldn't want a dog of any breed to do that to a hog. They get cut up really badly, even with the proper equipment and protective gears.
Someone once found a video of a Kishu tearing up a boar, and the dog got hurt really badly. I forgot where since the language was in cyrillic, not Latin alphabet.
There are probably videos of other breeds doing the same, but I haven't seen them because I don't know the language and I don't belong to those groups. I do know people with German dogs pride themselves in dogs killing seals and such though.
But such macho attitude are rare in the hunting world because it's a good way of getting your sport banned by non-hunters; so most people censor themselves.
As boars matur they become solitary animals and travel long distances looking for sows to breed and to fight other boars. Sows tend to stay within a smaller proximity where there's good food, water, and cover.
As for dogs physically killing hogs, you won't see a lot of that with a big nasty boar that had some big cutters. I would say it's extremely difficult for most predators to successfully take on and kill a mature boar without sustaining some sort of injury unless the boar is sick or injured.
If a dog is going to be used as a key tool in your own survival, then it really isn't ideal to expect them to go head on and physical with any animal that has the potential to do significant damage. Even a squirrel or rabbit can get a lucky bite in and cause enough damage to make the dog practically useless, so throwing them into a situation (catch, wrestle, or kill large game) where they have a high likelihood of getting fatally wounded is poor use of the dog. The less direct contact with the big game, i.e. baying instead of catching, the less of a chance the dog would need special medical attention (you're not going to find any hospitals in the middle of nowhere). And this is assuming that the dog has good instincts and a good head on its shoulders, you may wind up with a dog that won't be able to quite figure out how to handle certain game even if the general breed description says they can.
Similarly if we look at diets of hunter-gatherers in pigs' habitats they seldom dine on boars preferring horned or antlered game. They even prefer porcupine over tusked animals. Yet agricultural societies widely celebrate boar-hunts.
Even wolves prefer large deer over boars; with the exception of the Italian peninsula where the roe deer are smaller than boars and the wolves there have an appetite for pigs.
Well, even in the old hunting accounts in North America, sportsmen largely avoided peccaries, not because of how small they were, but how difficult they were to dispatch.
Not to say people don't eat pigs, but there is a hierarchy of preference depending on the season and abundance of game.
But in the big cities, 15 to 30 pound would be considered as "medium".