I'm finding community response pretty interesting, in light of having been on this board for many years now and seeing the pattern repeat. I am not going to sit in judgement of whether Roshaad is barking up the right tree in his dog search- He is searching, asking questions, and he knows his life (none of us do), and ultimately he will find his dog. Challenging him to justify his interest in the NK while giving this description of the breed doesn't match up
kishus are stubborn, mouthy/likes to bite, skittish dogs with a mind of their own who only bond with/like one adult, and they don't tend to like kids and most other dogs. Doesn't matter how much training they get, there will still be a majority of that breed's characteristics ingrained in them.
when you get to justify your own interest by saying simply
because I enjoy their essence.
If a prospective owner came on here and said they were interested in one of these breeds because they enjoy their essence, wouldn't you find that rather unsubstantial? Must we emphasize the negative attributes and gloss over the best stuff?
And I am picking on Sapphire here, (I'm sorry...) but only because S has just written a handy example of what happens over and over with dog forums- it NOT Sapphire only and it not just this forum: challenge anyone interested, tell them the breed is horrible, or that most people probably can't handle the truth/the dog and then walk off with a variant of "but *I* can have them because I just LOVE (bitey, skittish, etc...) dogs (that hate children and other dogs)..." while saying nothing of the specific great things about them. Why do we DO this? over and over again? This is not providing accurate information, it is hype and we're a FORUM, not a breeder interviewing a puppy buyer. Let the breeders weed out their own buyers.
I am sad that the Kai seems to now have the reputation as the "freakout breed"- which is exactly what upset me about the turn the "Misconceptions about Kai" thread took- to the point where here we have that exact prospective owner in Roshaad who is afraid to get one because "they run away." or in the other thread, Dave (souggy) who has no particular horse in the race (owns no NK, seeks no NK, just likes hunting with spitz dogs) believes they sound too fragile ("weak nerved") to ever work as hunting dogs, thanks to the poor proportion of information and perspective we have presented lately as a group on this forum, where talking about the tragedy (and it IS a tragedy ) of lost dogs is important to talk about and emphasize, but tell a story of a Kai taking a trip with his owner in a completely new place and behaving confidently and adaptably, and you get slammed for not providing realistic information to prospective owners? Kai CAN and Kai DO. I am going to firmly support Michelle (mdokic) in trying to correct that misconception-
-Many dog breeds contain 'spooky' individuals: for example, australian shepherds are a very common one, according to the Lost Pet finding business websites. There are others. Not a Kai Problem only. Just as there many sociable and working aussies, there are many sociable and working Kai. There have also been fear-bolted shikoku, kishu and shiba- and ALL dog owners are advised to keep their dogs from running off in a panic (think about all the warnings you read about around 4th of July, or all the dogs who Thundershirts are marketed to- they aren't written just for NK owners) during events.
-All of the kai who 'ran away' were adolescent or adult dogs in transition to new owners, or newly arrived at new owners, experienced a sudden scare in an unfamiliar place followed by equipment failure, then realized they had no deeply bonded person present to help them and had no idea where they were, or who or where was safe. It happens to spooky dogs from other breeds, too. They don't just run away randomly. Three of the Lost Kai were safely recovered, and most not-a-puppy-anymore Kai are successfully placed and rebonded without getting lost.
My own two kai hike and hunt with me in the forest and I couldn't prevent them from running away and going feral on a random whim if that were a real possibility. That is not how Kai have gotten lost, and that (running away) is not an attribute of their hunting heritage- NK are hunting partners, not loose cannons that run off on their own because they suddenly hate you or a blow a synapse and forget you. You do need to train them and practice and keep their habits crisp for whatever environment they live and work in, but they are dogs- not magic mythical ninja special-primitive-powers close-to-the-wolf-bullshit dogs, and not freakout glass-jaw candyass dogs you need to keep in a curio cabinet. They are dogs like many, many others- they are adaptable, close bonders who just won't ditch you for any old guy walking by with a hamburger in hand. They love to work and do things together. If an owner cannot exercise them and engage with them together frequently enough, then they may take off on their own hunt if their area is not secure, but you got a dog (presumably) to get out and have fun with it- they will express their lack of exercise or enjoyment by destroying your house way before they run away.
-There are many urban Kai- Nero walks in downtown Tokyo every day- that's one of the Biggest of Big Cities! and he's no puppy. Very few Kai are hiked around in the open woods daily, most are at least suburban. Many other NK live urban lives- ask around and see.
- My experience with Kai has been deep and a source of great joy and love and fun, outdoor exercise, learning and good friends, and I feel that it would be a sad thing for people to just write off Kai due to disproportionate hype. There is certainly art and science to raising NK- they aren't idiot=proof beginner dogs, but a lot of us on this forum were given a chance to get into these breeds, when our situations weren't classically perfect- we were young, or poor, or still in an apartment, or finishing school, or already had a challenging dog in our care- and we should pass that spirit on and not over-emphasize the negative in proportion to the tremendous rewards of our relationships with these dogs.
Hi Chrystal. I you. :') I've been slammed before for trying to give Kai a positive image. I mean yeah, not every Kai is a Matsu / Tavi / Juno / Kimber / Kona, but lots are, and they all have their own quirks too.
I had never met a Kai before Tavi, I've only ever had German Shepherds before her, and she definitely is not one but she has brought so much to our home.. Seriously, its these moments that make me want 1000 Kai, think of all the silliness... https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=743772505680930
I like a lot of the things Chrystal has to say about presenting realistic information about these breeds, not hype or emphasizing all of the negative traits. And she is correct that it is the breeder's job to screen the buyers, not this forum's.
That being said, I have specifically avoided this thread because I feel that the OP is asking for the right things to say to to a breeder in order to be approved for a puppy - in other words, he wants the answers to the test in advance. In school we call that cheating. When I volunteered at a cat rescue, we had a number of people who would apply for kittens and they would put on the application what they thought we wanted to hear with regards to indoor/outdoor, declawing, spay/neuter, etc - not what they actually intended to do. It was more difficult to discover the true intentions of applicants because of this, to trick them into revealing that they're not who they said they were on their application. Supporting this thread and telling the OP what he should tell breeders when he applies for a puppy is making some future breeders' screening process more difficult, and that bothers me.
-There are many urban Kai- Nero walks in downtown Tokyo every day- that's one of the Biggest of Big Cities! and he's no puppy. Very few Kai are hiked around in the open woods daily, most are at least suburban. Many other NK live urban lives- ask around and see.
Trevor and I are among those urban-suburban (somewhere on the border) Kai dwellers. We live in the Silicon Valley with two Kai on the 3rd floor of our apartment complex. They go on walks around city streets, and live a pretty typical urban dog lifestyle. However, knowing that we wouldn't be able to give them a life where they could be hiked in open woods often, he and I made the choice before getting either pup to work them in other ways that our environment allows. We do Agility/Puplates (dog yoga) with them multiple times a week and hike as much as possible (mostly on leash).
We've moved apartment complexes with Suki, the older one, and she did not have one of those "run away" moments, even though we came from an apartment with roommates to our current one with just us. She trusts hu-mom and dad, so where she is happy to go where we go whether that's to a new home, an outdoor restaurant, just exploring the area around us. (Disclaimer: we've had her since 8 weeks, she was only 6 months old when we moved and have no experience with an adult re-homed Kai).
Suki is a half-sister (plus a little more? Idk it's a strange half-sister/aunt/niece relationship lol) to Michelle's Kimber, and is similar in temperament. Bold, fearless, really social with any living thing, not at all what we expected out of a Kai. Luna is completely unrelated, but tends to border on the spooked Kai stereotype. She's not quite 5 months old (so it might be a fear period for her), but she tends to get spooked by unexpected noises, sights, etc. but that's something we're working on. The difference between Luna and that "Kais run away" stereotype, is that if Luna runs from something scary, she runs to me. She and I have bonded fiercely and she knows that I protect her from those unknown things.
I don't want this thread to become the "Kai thread", but I do want to make a few points..
I too am not happy with the direction the Kai "vibe" has gone on the forum, but I largely stay out of it as I want the Kai's reputation to be driven by owner experience and not breeder experience.
I think it's really important, as @WrylyBrindle points out, to consider the fact that every dog is an individual and while their base temperament may be inherited, it is also augmented by their environment (owner, surroundings, other dogs, experience, etc). I think the Kai gets the "runaway" rep because of the the "squeaky wheel syndrome" - we hear about the bad things that happen to just a few Kai more than we hear about all the good things that happen to the rest of the Kai.
Putting some statistics in place, we (Yamabushi Kennel) has produced about 80 Kai pups, of which 4 of them have been lost or runaway (Taka, Shakko, Mishi, and Kiba in Hawaii). That's only 5% of the Kai we've produced. Also, in everyone of those situation the Kai was placed in their new home at an age older than 6 months. None of the Kai we've produced who were placed in homes before 6 months of age have runaway. I should break this into a new thread, really....
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Anyway, on my ( and Chrystal's ) point about considering the individual, What @asian.sapphire writes about the Kishu I find interesting because my 3 Kishu only fit a few of the details she mentioned...
kishus are stubborn, mouthy/likes to bite, skittish dogs with a mind of their own who only bond with/like one adult, and they don't tend to like kids and most other dogs. Doesn't matter how much training they get, there will still be a majority of that breed's characteristics ingrained in them.
My Kishu are not skittish dogs at all, actually that is one of the best qualities I have found in the Kishu - as far as NK go, they have really solid nerves! (at least mine do)
Also, my Kishu LOVE meeting people and have bonded with me and my wife the same. I see no favoritism from them.
Also, my Kishu LOVES kids, and are GREAT with my daughter. I've not (yet) met a Kishu that doesn't like kids.
So, point is, we have to consider the individual. Perhaps my Kishu are not the "norm", or maybe @asian.sapphire's is not the "norm"... It doesn't really matter, these are examples of Kishu Ken, and so anyone looking into getting a Kishu should consider all of the info provided when deciding on the breed. You could get one that fits my description, or one that fits @asian.sapphire's description. This is where knowing the parents of your pup is crucial.
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On the topic of "who should get a dog", which is the OP's question. When we, as a breeder, choose homes for our pups we take a holistic approach - we look at the person's whole situation. The very most important thing to us is this: Is this person open-minded and willing to learn how to properly care for their Kai Ken?
I'll place a pup in a less than ideal living situation but with an owner who is clearly interested in learning and providing for their pup the best they can over a person who has an ideal living situation but is clearly uninterested in improving their knowledge of caring for their new pup.
There really is no ideal living situation anyway. We all have jobs, we all have to work, we all have to leave our dogs alone at times - that's just reality.
I'm just going to repeat something I posted earlier, because it seems to bear repeating.
[A] hard analysis and a detailed breakdown of your socialization, activities, and training plan/schedule with any future dog will be far more helpful. It also allows you to send something coherent and comprehensive to a breeder that will benefit the discussions you need to have about whether one of their dogs is right for you (and if your brother still intends on getting a dog too, I suggest that he do the same thing).
Most homes are probably not "ideal" homes because well, perfection is not always possible. By actually formulating a plan yourself, one that details logistics (not just vague intentions), you are showing that you are putting thought into what you will actually do and dealing with the "nitty gritty," as @Ilium mentioned. Hopefully it also goes some way in allaying the fears described by @poetikdragon. It is what I suggested that a good friend do when he was looking for a vizsla, a breed that is very velcro with high exercise needs. He was an attorney at a top firm living in a one bedroom apt in downtown NY and probably working about 60-70 hours a week, which is obviously not an ideal situation for that breed of dog. In thinking through the details and laying them out in his approach letter to breeders, he was 1) able to make his work logistics and training arrangements way ahead of time, 2) demonstrate what he wanted in a dog, and his understanding of the breed, 3) express his willingness to commit to doing whatever he had to do to fill his dog's needs (his detailed plan clearly involved hours of research and securing documentation regarding his living situation and work situation). It is a necessary conversation you will have with any ethical breeder and laying out the details of your own initiative is, in my opinion, a sign of good faith.
More generally, every dog is an individual. Most deviate from the breed description in one aspect or another. Part of writing or calling a breeder is establishing a relationship where ideally both parties have a firm grasp of the owner's expectations and limits and deciding whether that home will be a good fit for a particular dog.
Wow, didn't intend to cause all this. @WrylyBrindle thank you so much, I really have become interested in kai Ken, and the other nk, I enjoy learning about them and my family and everyone I talk dogs with are interested in learning more about these dogs. I chose not to go solely on the advice/ experiences of my peers when it came to learning about owning a dog, instead I sought out people who in addition to knowing and owning dogs I'm interested in, actually actively LIVE with their dogs. I love you guys for that.
@PoetikDragon maybe you saw through my charade, or maybe I want to see where I can improve upon my lifestyle, in order for a dog to fit in it. It could be either, but something of my existence on this forum (name, picture, questions) has allowed you to conclude that in lxl, x is negative. The nerd in me is a little curious as to how you came to that conclusion.
@violet_in_seville I will be able to do that when I have more of an idea of what activities are available for dogs. This forum is wonderful for that because I'm able to see examples of these from dog owners who participate. It's not inconceivable that someone with no first world dog owning experience would need to be exposed to these alien concepts before being able to come up with a detailed plan for a dog's potential lifestyle.
Again, here to learn, as much as possible, certain things not effectively passed on in books. No insidious plot to do anything morally wrong or plant seeds of discord, or be judged or made suspect for asking questions. Ego is such a thing.
@roshaad - pretty clear that you are thinking about what you can do, and I hope my post didn't imply otherwise. I just thought it would be useful to elaborate on what I said because this thread will be read by others in the future and because it felt like we were straying off topic a bit.
Anyway, two questions: 1) have you thought about fostering? 2) have you had a chance to go through some of the threads in "hunting and working" and "shows, showing, and events?"
If you have the time, fostering is a great way to actually get some first hand experience with different breeds and to get some "first world dog experience" as you put it. It also would really help out any number of rescues in need. Or maybe think about volunteering at a rescue (you usually have to do some sort of intro session at the rescue/shelter) since they often need people to help walk, play with, groom the dogs. Those of us from the area could probably recommend some places looking for volunteer or foster homes in the greater NY area.
As for the threads, you'll see that there is a huge range of activities you can do with your dogs. Again this has to do with activities you think would be fun to do together. You actually seem to have some things in mind already since you said you'd like to do some traveling in your area with your pup. Some dogs even love just discovering new places. For instance, with my female dog, she really enjoys running errands with me. I kind of consider it one of our activities together since we'll do it for hours (strolling through the various outdoor markets and wine shops, etc of Brooklyn? A nice multi-hour, trip and she got to walk about 5-6 miles).
When you do met the breeds, you could ask the booth folks what they like to do with their dogs and why? There may be activities you didn't know existed, or things or places you had not realized were dog friendly.
[edited for typos and also to add]
Somewhere in the archives is a thread listing the dog friendly places people found. I know I listed a bunch for NY.
@Roshaad, I think you're asking valid questions and have a very open mind. When I found kai ken, I did research and I was willing to do anything for my dog, but I didn't know if that was going to be "enough" if that makes sense, so I had very similar questions going through my head Im happy and thankful brad and Jen trusted me and Nate even though I was still in my last quarter of classes. I hope the info you find here will help you in your journey and learning experience, no matter what breed you end up finding a liking to!
I am sad that the Kai seems to now have the reputation as the "freakout breed"- which is exactly what upset me about the turn the "Misconceptions about Kai" thread took- to the point where here we have that exact prospective owner in Roshaad who is afraid to get one because "they run away." or in the other thread, Dave (souggy) who has no particular horse in the race (owns no NK, seeks no NK, just likes hunting with spitz dogs) believes they sound too fragile ("weak nerved") to ever work as hunting dogs, thanks to the poor proportion of information and perspective we have presented lately as a group on this forum, where talking about the tragedy (and it IS a tragedy ) of lost dogs is important to talk about and emphasize, but tell a story of a Kai taking a trip with his owner in a completely new place and behaving confidently and adaptably, and you get slammed for not providing realistic information to prospective owners? Kai CAN and Kai DO. I am going to firmly support Michelle (mdokic) in trying to correct that misconception-
I had a Shiba Inu, and met a few Akita; both Japanese and American in North America and abroad. The Shiba was dog acquired during my teenage years. He had good recall, but that was because I grew up in a rural town in middle of bum-fawk-nowhereville at the time. There was no leash-laws at the time, and dogs were allowed to come and go as they pleased. He would have shoddy off-leash capacity if we lived in a bigger city since off-leash times would be few and far. So, some of the memories I have of him are contrary to some of the members' experiences here.
But other those those threes, you are right. I have never met a Kishu, a Shikoku or a Kai. I did have a chance to meet a Kai twice, but both time-- I was on a road-trip with someone who wanted to stay on the move.
I was already aware of the "reputation" of the breed, largely from published commentaries from FCI judges prior to the "misconception" thread. But I gave the benefit of the doubt given @BradA1878 and others' experience of off-leash specimens of the breed; and merely chalked some of the tales on the forums to the dogs' environment.
But that sort of seem the same mentality in the rescue-culture where anything short of an ideal home for a dog would be a disaster; and before anyone can adopt a dog, they must meet all the criteria. That's why I bought my last two dogs-- because the nearby rescue groups wanted me to work only 4 hours a day, have a mortgage and a yard and so on.
Not sure how anyone can get a mortgage with only 20 hours of work a week. Regardless, it was easier to purchase a puppy and start anew than to comply with the demands of a rescue group trying to rehome a dog with unknown history.
There's only a few in the rescue world who are not cynical. Two which immediately come to mind are the Hoof and the Heel blog and "Beyond Breed" group led by Kim Wolf. I understand rescuers' concerns, but their tendency to focus on the negatives drive away people. No one does that with adopted children, and dog-people would do well to learn from that.
But, no, I don't have a negative opinion of the breed. I just want people to be aware what they sound like to others. Instead of emphasizing on the negatives, they should be analyzing why.
Not going to add much except I also thought of fostering! It might be a good way for you, @Roshaad, to help a dog in need, and also have a chance to see what you like in a dog. Obviously this wouldn't get you the more uncommon NKs, but you might try a Shiba or Akita rescue (or other breeds you're interested in).
I think I'll leave the Kai conversation (mostly) alone. I don't really understand why it is an argument. Nothing that anyone said in the Kai thread was untrue--on the good side or the not so good side. Are we only supposed to share positive experiences? But you know, sometimes I think I have a different perspective from those who only have the rarer NKs, because I've seen plenty of bad situations with Shibas and AAs and people simply not being at all prepared for the dogs they get (and then seeing what happens to the dogs).
anyway, I'm of the opinion it is better to share all--the good and the bad and the in between, and it always seemed to me that Roshaad was exploring, thinking, not sure yet, and trying to get information to help make a decision--a decision which seems it still quite a bit down the road. And that's good!
I have to say, Roshaad, that you're asking some valid questions. When speaking to a breeder, just be open and honest. They'll lead you in the right direction. I was unsure if I would be considered for a Kai because I had a small dog, a cat, and a Shiba. I was honest, though and we got Shelby not too long after we applied.
As for the Kai issue: I feel a bit guilty for the bad rap that the Kai have been getting lately because I posted so much about Shelby. Shelby had a lot of life changes in her first year and developed anxiety. I was completely unprepared for it and sought out help here on the forum. Shelby WAS an extreme case, but we worked with her extensively. I stay at home now, so it's much easier to work with her on her schedule rather than on mine. She is a sturdy dog physically, and she is pretty sturdy emotionally now as well. I'm actually having to teach her manners now because she gets in everyone's face when they visit (stranger or not)! If you look at her littermates (NioxAyu litter), you can see that she was the exception instead of the rule, and I feel like that was mostly my fault. Kai are good dogs. But, every breed has upsides and downsides. That's something important to remember. I chose a Kai over a few breeds because I felt it was the right fit for me and my family. I adore many other breeds, but after a lot of research I don't feel they would ever be right for me or my family.
You're doing the right thing by asking questions and researching. Everyone here has always given me amazing advice and never steered me wrong. You'll find the one for you.
I don't think the Kai-issue was caused by the owners, but rather one or two users who insisted @BradA1878 and @WrylyBrindle's dogs are the exceptions to the norm. Any time someone's dog get shoved into exceptionalism, rather than exploring why, there is bound to be disagreements and a lengthy discussions for better or for worse.
I don't think anyone is saying discuss only the positives, but rather more transparency.
But it's good that @Roshaad is asking questions, so he can get a feel what it is like to be a dog-owner from all walks of life in all sort of environments from different backgrounds.
Regardless of the breed chosen, there is always some work involved. Everyone remembers that untrained herp-derp socially-clueless Lab which harass everyone trying to pester them into play. That's the nature of the breed; but very few people actually remember the quiet well-mannered Lab they pass by the yard everyday on the way to work.
So, really, no matter what breed chosen, the temperaments need to be addressed and dealt with accordingly. Most established dog-communities, especially ones going on for a good century, already have a wealth of information how to deal with those issues.
So, even if someone shy away from one breed, they will eventually have to owe up or face some of the issues in another breed. So, the question should be "is this dog compatible with my lifestyle?"
I have owned quite a few different breeds (well, they were owned more by the family and not so much by the individual), and all of them were and are a pain in the behind in their own unique ways. Some were insufferable only because of the living conditions (eg. excessive barking inside apartment units) or because of ill-suited climate (eg. deep snow; too hot et cetera); but that's not really the fault of the dogs, but the economic limitations of my career-path. But you know, if you move around enough in your lifetime and been around enough dogs, there is no perfect fit-- only compatibility.
The Forum exists specifically to help owners with their dogs, share accurate information about the breeds, and support each other. @Myabee09- you are not a bit to blame, all of us have stuff to work on, and if we don't have a safe place to talk about it then the Forum isn't able to do it's most important job! I have relied on the Forum to help me with my dogs, too, esp Seiji.
The problem is not: saying anything less than stellar about the dogs. The problem is hyper focusing on a tiny minority of dogs whom terrible things have happened with (fearful bolting and loss in new homes), coupled with suppressing the sharing and importance of success experiences. Noone is saying Don't Say anything negative- we're saying include all true experiences. At this time, the negative has blossomed out of proportion unchecked (or rather, attempts at countering with some "cheer-up, it's not ALL like that, here's some good experiences" has been shouted down with "you are wearing rose colored glasses/forgetting that your dogs aren't perfect") and the evidence that this is out of balance and detrimental is that for the first time we actually have new/objective people deciding that, based on what they read here, the worst instances of a handful of dogs appear to outweigh the rest of the dogs and all of their good attributes to the point where the breed is not worth experiencing. I am saying that that is out of balance, and it's real balance, not Pollyanna, that I'd like to see return.
I am also saying- (in the case of the Kishu example above) that when someone wants to know about a breed, why do so many people (all breeds, all forums...) say "here are 7 specific awful things about them" and then offer such tripe as "I enjoy their essence?" as the 1 (nebulous) good thing? (I'm sorry, again- but it's the perfect example... you are not the only one to have said this, and you wont be the last.) Another instance where detailing bad stuff is deemed important, but saying anything good (or substantial) is somehow NOT? ...that's crazy.
LASTLY, and HOWEVER... Lisa correctly reminds me that while it is just not easy to buy a Kai, Shikoku, JA, Hokkaido, Kishu, on a whim- there are puppy mill shibas in pet shops that anyone can drop by on their way home from work, completely uneducated, and purchase with no screening whatsoever simply because they want the cute shiba they've seen in memes (or whatever) and then find themselves later punting the dog because they had absolutely no idea/didnt want to know/ or were inappropriate to care for any real dog in the first place. So I see that POV, and Im glad you brought that up because I forgot. Even for my 2 mutts, I had to apply, and be screened in writing, home visits and interviews by the rescues, so I forget that some people can have less oversight in their dog-getting experiences.
Didn't get a chance to read the last post....some thoughts though...
Roshaad: The best advice I think is to meet the breed and speak with a breeder who, when they ask questions of you, in turn you respond by being yourself. Having pat answers that are derived off of another source probably [ edit *] *will not* do anyone (you, dog, or breeder) any good in the long run. If you are true to what you are, then there will not be any problems. So glad you are asking questions about the breed now ahead of time.
I am sure after meeting the breed and reading through the various threads you will get an idea what will work for you and what feels right in regard to what you are seeking in a canine. Please go meet others with the breed and you will be able to narrow down what you can provide for your particular situation.
@ Poeticdragon: I completely understand and see your point. There are so many pretenders and anyone can be anything behind the facade of electronic media. Weeding through applicants and interviews is no small task. So glad you brought that up.
@ Souggy: I think you mention, "few rescues who are not cynical". Yes that may be true however, having been in rescue for a number of years and having adopted to more than one person (who in fact have been one time or another on either side of forums) I would say that I was certainly open minded enough to adopt to them. I find it frustrating and highly irritating that is the generalized statement and all that is said of rescues. Unless you have been full scale into that world and the process, I think it is best left to another thread if there are questions and assumptions to be explored.
@ wrylybrindley etc etc....honestly I don't think there is a warped sense of doom presented in regard to descriptions of Kai. Granted my reality may not be anyone elses in regard to their dog but somewhere in between the threads lies some truth.
WrylyBrindle states: "You do need to train them and practice and keep their habits crisp for whatever environment they live and work in, but they are dogs- not magic mythical ninja special-primitive-powers close-to-the-wolf-bullshit dogs, and not freakout glass-jaw candyass dogs you need to keep in a curio cabinet."
As far as "candyass", yes there will be times with any dog that will exhibit this one time or another, and one may wonder where the hell it came from. The more important question is which breeders will provide the support to address that when it does happen? Where will the follow up come from?
Honestly, I leave this side of the forum scratching my head....what really do we want to paint about the breed? On one hand, we some way assigned a "no guts no glory" ideology and on the other simply "roses and sunshine" if one chooses to go in a particular direction, breeder, or particular line the breed can seemingly can do anything.
Generally, maybe it best ask ourselves, are we marketing for a glossy breeder ad for sales, or are we truthfully providing prospective between the expletives, hardline defense and personal affronts .
I wouldn't foster, I'm not yet comfortable around strange dogs, I would be mortified taking one home with me. I intend to volunteer for a while to get over that in time.
I got on well with the maltese that was our tenant's maltese for a year or so, but she was small, very friendly and she did take protecting her owner's hair salon seriously.
I think from what I've been hearing about kai that they're actually pretty awesome, almost sounding too good to be true. That they have flaws makes them more believeable, but before accepting the potential for those flaws, I want to learn more about the other nk, like the kishu, which I haven't heard as much about, to see if the kai might have a contender.
I wouldn't call it over-generalizing when people inside the rescue-community are accusing groups of classism, and in some cases, racism, in the past few years for some of the adoption requirements on the application. Especially when the debates intensified in the last few months now that there are more groups operating to improve the welfare of the dog-owners instead of only just focusing on the dogs. I know that the old-school rescuers are growing irate with the new generation of activists because they're being told to "check their privilege".
I've to admit, the rescue groups in my hometown, which I ended up moving back to a few years later, are better compared to the city where I moved to start my career. I actually had applications approved from the town I lived in. The only things they ever asked were maps of local dog-parks and hiking trails and that one should live within at least 2 hours of a hiking trail.
The organization never asked for my car ownership, my salary or working hours. They never asked if I lived in a "shady neighbourhood" or a "good neighbourhood", what my hobbies were or anything like that. Nothing absurd like "do you belong to a vegan organization?" Their primary interest was ensuring the adoptee has room and space to roam. But the adoptions never fell through because every time a dog that was 25-40 lbs with a gritty personality (since I specified I was looking for a good off-leash hiking dog like ACD) came up, someone else happened to live closer and the organization didn't feel like driving to the airport. It would be a three-day drive otherwise.
But those simplified requirements is probably because everyone in town works in the oil-fields, so the only thing they ask is who will take care of the dog during FIFO (Fly In-Fly Out) jobs; or they want to make sure you don't work more than 40-50 hours a week. But that's probably because they know there are not a lot of engineers or software programmers, the ones who can afford to reduce their hours, compared to the number of blue-collared workers. So, if they demand the same thing from rescue organizations in the city, they would never get a single dog adopted out.
The ones within the city were very strict on kind of house, what kind of yard, what kind of income, how many working hours, what kind of organizations, what kind of hobbies (anything exploitative like hunting or fishing is a big NO-NO to many of them), what kind of car owned and so on. And yeah, I had applications refused only because there was no way I could work under 30 hours.
So when I did finally find a breeder of a dog I was interested in, she already knew about my financial situation. So, she asked for trail-maps, nearby provincial parks, where public lands are, all the vet offices within 2 hours distances-- and so on. Once I provided those, she agreed to sell a dog.
With my second dog, after I finally became fiscally-secure enough to pursue more expensive hobbies, the breeder only wanted to know what game were legal to hunt and when the seasons where and what kind of permits I had to apply for. He also wanted to know if I had my firearm licence and hunting licence. But he didn't ask anything more than that.
But point is, not every dog-owner are going to be an ideal situation.
I think the thing about how many irresponsible people get Shibas, and to a lesser but still large extent, American Akitas, is what always colors my opinions on these kinds of discussions. I tend to emphasize the negative, because I want people to be prepared for that. The good of any dog is what the prospective family is focusing on--but they may not be focusing on, or even thinking of, the negatives. And yes, this is specifically colored by the lack of consideration I see with people getting Shibas. I can't even tell you how many people STILL insist their Shiba is going to be good off leash or will get along fine with birds or other small animals, or will, say, fit it in fine to a family of Jack Russell Terriers (can you say nightmare waiting to happen?) Or even more nightmarish--the people who actually believe any Akita is automatically going to love children because they've read some bs online about this, and they're going to plop their baby down with the unsteady Akita they got from a byb....etc.
I think when we're looking for a new dog, we're very focused on the positive too, and need a reality check sometime, just so we're aware that little Shiba will likely grow up into a holy terror for a couple of years before settling down to be quite a lovely dog (for example). Or so we're not surprised when the fun AA puppy turns out to be a lovely adult who is no longer in the least bit tolerant of other dogs.
So that's how I'm looking at it--and even when people are looking for the rarer breeds, it doesn't mean, necessarily, that because they end up here they are actually going to be a good match for a Kai or Kishu or Shikoku. Find out what the negatives MIGHT be, so a person can decide if that will work for them. And it's good to have all the experiences, but I also think it's important to note that just because one person can do X thing with their Kai, doesn't mean everyone can (and it's not just training--there is nothing that pisses me off more than the smug assumption that just because I trained my dog to do x, every dog can be trained that way....and the smug part refers to an annoying convo on Shibaholics, not here!!!!) But that is the same with the negative things: just because some Kai ran off (in extraordinary circumstances!) doesn't mean all will.
I also don't think it is unfair to stress a certain strong flight instinct in Kai though. My Kai is a wonderful dog. He gets along with other dogs, which is so valuable for me in a somewhat volatile pack situation (thankfully less volatile these days after we lost one Shiba). he is a great all around companion--fun to travel with, fun to train--how he loves agility, though only on his terms!--just fun to be with. He's sensitive in all the best ways and responsive to training but also just moods and day to day activity. He does have a decent recall too, and might be even better if we worked on it more. But he also has a strong flight instinct that I've not seen in any of my other dogs, and it has nothing to do with recall. When he's scared, or even nervous (as in a new place), he will bolt. He actually searches out escape routes as part of his unease in new places. So it is something to watch, and something I never let down my vigilance about. And the difference with him is, I can see, when he gets very frightened (which thankfully only happened once!), he really needs some time to come back to his front brain, as I believe WrylyBrindle has described it. That time period, though, is critical and he could be lost in that time. So I'm very careful with him.
On the other hand, I thinking have dogs off leash--especially Nihon Ken--is way way overrated (and potentially really really annoying to other people who might have to deal with the dog) and I don't do it anyway for the most part. So it has taken little adjustment on my part really to deal with the flight tendency. I'm just aware of it. (And of course, he does do agility off leash, in an enclosed environment).
And regarding rescue: yeah, harder to get a dog from a rescue sometimes than not. I've been turned down by many, mostly because they didn't like the mix of breeds I had or wanted. Once I got turned down not for myself but for my friend because I said I didn't believe in all the Cesar Millan bs (and thus ruined her chance to get a rescue GSD, but we decided, then, she probably didn't want a dog from that rescue anyway). I don't know if any rescues would ever give me a dog, though I personally think I'm a good candidate. So sometimes going the rescue route is HARDER than buying a puppy. I do hope someday a Shiba rescue will deem me acceptable to take on an elder though, as I would very much like to do that, someday in the distant future after my old somewhat cranky near-elder is gone.
@shibamistress I fully agree that the mill dogs make it easier for people to get the "cute puppy" without researching what they're getting into. I knew Mya would be fine with my small animals because she lived with children and a Shih Tzu before coming to my house. I never had any dreams of her being trusted off leash. I like the thought of a dog having the off leash capability for emergency situations.
Getting an animal from a rescue can be a major pain. I got one of my cats only because the rescue people knew me from my job at Petsmart. Otherwise, Jefferson might have sat in a foster home for a long time because of his history.
@Rashaad maybe you can volunteer at a shelter and work your way up to fostering? That would be a great way to slowly get used to having a dog in the house.
Roshaad- You say you'd be mortified. Why? In what sense? When I think 'mortified' I think of 'embarrassed,' but I'm thinking maybe you mean 'scared' here? I would say: don't be. My parents have done fostering for mini schnauzers in the past (before permanently adopting two of the dogs they were fostering) and it was a very rewarding experience for them, and it really helped the dogs too. It *is* a big step though, going zero to thirty possibly. Volunteer work is also a great idea. Petsmart does/used to do dog adoptions on the weekends, and back when I was in high school I would hang around and help clean the cages and take the dogs for potty breaks/short walks.
Rescues can definitely be difficult to get animals from. They're very protective. In fact it's kind of that "are-you-perfect" mentality that drove me to wondering similar questions to Rashaad. "What do breeders look for?" "What kinds of questions should I be asking breeders, and asking of myself?" "How do I show that I am serious and committed about this decision?"" I don't think you can really call seeking advice on this cheating, particularly when half of the advice is to 1) be honest and 2) seek knowledge. There is no clear cut and easy answer, and as most people have pointed out, most of the people here do not fit the "ideal." The secret then becomes what the breeder sees in you, which can only come from honesty. Canned responses, especially those that sound too perfect, would sound suspicious, I would think.
It's probably like Shigeru was telling me about the breed standard. Dogs are not machines, and although there is an "ideal" each dog will have its flaws. Some might have an amazing coat and a great head shape, but perhaps the conformation of the tail or chest shape is not as great. Just the same a potential owner is going to have characteristics that are appealing and some that are not. Ultimately whether it is just a small "penalty" against the perfect ideal or an actual deal-breaker comes down to the severity of the issue and what we're willing to do to work around it, and that can only come from considering and reflecting on the questions above.
@ilium I've been bitten three times.I used to go to school everyday walking through an affluent neighborhood of guard dogs, with open gates. In the a dog that you knew was safe, but the further away from home you got a strange dog might come after you as a trespasser. It will take some "socialization" for me to override that instinctive avoidance of dogs.
One could argue there are horrible breeders too.....So why the fervor over how horrible rescue is...
Given this theme continues to be brought up I will say It is unfortunate that Souggy and so many others here had to directly encounter issues described in attempting to foster the vast amount of dogs so obviously in need of care.
It really is so sad there such animosity for rescues and a need to spread rumors or classify all rescue organizations in the same way. Organizational culture differs and varies from group to group.
I find it ironic though, that many individuals when they don't get what they want, as they demand it, decide to degrade others and their efforts. Have you ever thought maybe that's part of the problem all around.
The fact remains there are many avenues when it come to obtaining a dog. If you don't like the rescue system or one orgs way of handling clients, then go to the the shelter directly to obtain your dog or better yet just volunteer at the shelter even if it is just for one week. There are plenty of dogs and the simple fact the shelter needs helping hands means they generally will welcome help, often leading to adoption should one find that route appropriate for them.
There are so many dogs and simply not enough room or time for most facilities to address them all. By going to the shelter directly to obtain takes one more out of the system that avoids having it be fostered by supposed "horrible" rescues.
Let's hope there is never a need for full time rescue in the Kai breed. May individuals here be able to pull themselves up their bootstraps should they get themselves stranded in regard to their dog.
Choose wisely, whatever route you decide to take.. Best of Luck to everyone! Snf
There are already lots of criticisms about dog-breeding. Mark Derr wrote The Politics of Dogs in 1990 which dethroned the American Kennel Club. There are a number of other articles such as Paddy Burns's Rosette to Ruins. There is Pedigreed Dogs Exposed documentary which led to reforms in the United Kingdom's Kennel Club in regard to how pugs, bulldogs et al should be evaluated.
So people are already painting breeders with a broad-brush. If you have noticed, any time a breeding practice gets criticized, such criticisms are always coupled with a model which offers better alternative.
Likewise, there are just as many criticisms of rescue-community like Nathan Winograd's Redemption.
How is this any different? I shared my experience, and offered Suzanne Philips's Hoof and Paw blog and Kim Wolf's Beyond Breed as a potential alternative.
Someone with an axe to grind would just complain without offering something else in return.
I didn't actually see much bashing of rescues here, so I'm kind of puzzled by that comment, Snf. What anti-rescue fervor? I don't see it. People were discussing their experiences, but not saying all rescues are bad (I very much doubt anyone here believes that!) And what rumors? I don't understand at all.
For myself, I strongly support rescues. I can't foster with my dog situation right now, but I donate money to Shiba and Akita rescues. I try to signal boost Shiba rescue fundraisers and Shibas in need. I very much DO support rescue.
And I've had bad experiences with several rescues when I tried to adopt a dog from several rescues in nearby states. (And I also had a great experience with a local Akita rescue, which I also support, but they didn't have a dog for me). I've seen plenty of rescues with too stringent adoption policies (because honestly, if I can't adopt from a rescue then I wonder exactly who they are looking for?), but it's the rescue people's choices--they're trying to do what is best for the dogs they have. That's their choice, and while I think sometimes they are shooting themselves in the foot by rejecting good possible homes, that is still their choice. I just hope that when I finally am able to adopt again, I'll know enough people in rescue that someone understand that I would, in fact, be a good home for an elder Shiba even though I have Akitas too.
And yes, we have also had plenty of discussion of bad breeders. As you know, it happens on the Shiba forum in particular every single day.
@Roshaad I have always had family dogs but when I moved away from home I knew I wanted to get a dog and had always jumped around on research and planning. So I got into grad school full time AND living on my "own" in a house with roommates, but no one was helping anyone else out AND working full time and it didn't seem right to bring a dog in to a life where I don't get a single day off for 5 months at a time. However I was on a rescue blog and someone asked a similar question that you have poised and it was responded to, "if you really want it, you will make it work, just know what you are getting into."
So I looked at it, I managed to schedule all of my classes on my days off, and had my work let me have days off during the week, so I was never gone for more than 9 hours with commute at a time. And going with any of the NK building that bond over the first few years together is SO important, I cannot stress it enough. I looked at the money and cut back any extra expenses I had (good thing too because I had almost $400 in vet bills in my first two months with a raging ear infection with my girl; coincidentally I also haven't had cable since that time, nor had my nails done, nor gone on a "real" vacation). I made sure my housing was okay with me bringing in a dog since they had a lab puppy, and finally I looked at my five and ten year plan because, at 24 at the time I'm basing that I will have many large changes in the next ten years, probably fewer from the 10-15mark. If I get a new job/lose my job, will I take my dog with me where ever I go? If I move can I find dog friendly housing and have that as a priority? What if i get in a relationship and he doesn't like dogs/is allergic to dogs? (Too bad sucka my pup was here first and stays with me) If something were to happen to me, who would be willing to take the dog. Do I have the time and money to train the dog/take it to classes/keep him-her socialized? Am I ready to sacrifice some of my social life to be home every 8 hours to walk my dog? Kiss happy hour good bye, as well as overnights anywhere else unless you leave late/come back early (or get a fantastic roommate who loves your dog too).
When I came to that conclusion that yes, yes, check that, yup I really buckled down and looked at my rescues, none of which had "my" dog after visiting and seeing many. On a lark I found Kais and did some research and found--uh this is mah breed! And two years and several months later here we are, and I have a second dog since that time, have moved twice, graduated grad school, changed jobs, dated and dumped some people and still have me and my puppers going strong.
All of this being said you have to really look at your situation. If you aren't getting a kai I would recommend a young adult dog over a puppy, with an adult rehome kai I would recommend being home more, but that's just me, I prefer adult dogs to puppies (also when you train a dog you are really training the person to be consistent in their expectations of their dog's responses to a command--so if your family helps out everyone could train your pup differently).
Lastly I think you posted this and it may have been someone else but I think when people hear independent dog they imagine a cat in dogs fur (I'm not a cat person so this analogy may not be perfect). But an independent dog still wants to be with it's person, maybe not nose punching you ever 10 seconds because you aren't petting them constantly (cough like a lab puppy I once lived with), but at least chilling in the same room with you. To me when I hear independent dog I don't think of the dog who is aloof to humans but the dog who is smart enough to think for themselves. You said sit, but you want me to do it for kibble? Nahhhhh. You want me to sit here with you rather than chase that squirrel and you'll tap my head.....nahhhhh. Oh if I don't bark at that dog you'll give me liver?.....Sure! My shiba has to be constantly underfoot. We put a flipping bell on her so we don't keep tripping over her. She doesn't want to be petted justtttt right in your blind spot, especially when carrying awkward bundles. My Kai will come to me when she wants pets but once she's overstimulated/pet satisfied she will find a perch in the room where she can watch me. This is what I think it means to have an independent dog, not one who will do a half day well/happily by themselves. Super random tangent, wasn't supposed to be preachy but something weird I've been clarifying with myself on walks as I mull over how to train some bad habits out of my pups.
Also NK in general are very, very, smart. Bored dogs=potentially destructive dogs.
Roshaad: I do apologize for the off-trackness in response to your original post.
Cdenny: thanks for the great example of how you worked a dog into your life. I have been there too. I waited until much later after getting myself set up a bit, after an undergraduate degree, before I brought in a dog. Later I juggled grad school with a dog but I did have help during those long hours. Each situation is different just as each dog is different in their needs. Nothing in life is perfect generally, and if it is it won't stay that way for long (lol).
Souggy states:
" I wouldn't call it over- generalizing when people inside the rescue-community are accusing groups of classism, and in some cases, racism, in the past few years for some of the adoption requirements on the application."
How is that not offensive and inflammatory? Most certainly inaccurate in a multitude of situations that I have witnessed. Not to say things like this do not exist in this world, certainly nice of you to paint such a lovely picture of what people do in regard to canine adoption.
Comments
And I am picking on Sapphire here, (I'm sorry...) but only because S has just written a handy example of what happens over and over with dog forums- it NOT Sapphire only and it not just this forum: challenge anyone interested, tell them the breed is horrible, or that most people probably can't handle the truth/the dog and then walk off with a variant of "but *I* can have them because I just LOVE (bitey, skittish, etc...) dogs (that hate children and other dogs)..." while saying nothing of the specific great things about them. Why do we DO this? over and over again? This is not providing accurate information, it is hype and we're a FORUM, not a breeder interviewing a puppy buyer. Let the breeders weed out their own buyers.
I am sad that the Kai seems to now have the reputation as the "freakout breed"- which is exactly what upset me about the turn the "Misconceptions about Kai" thread took- to the point where here we have that exact prospective owner in Roshaad who is afraid to get one because "they run away." or in the other thread, Dave (souggy) who has no particular horse in the race (owns no NK, seeks no NK, just likes hunting with spitz dogs) believes they sound too fragile ("weak nerved") to ever work as hunting dogs, thanks to the poor proportion of information and perspective we have presented lately as a group on this forum, where talking about the tragedy (and it IS a tragedy
-Many dog breeds contain 'spooky' individuals: for example, australian shepherds are a very common one, according to the Lost Pet finding business websites. There are others. Not a Kai Problem only. Just as there many sociable and working aussies, there are many sociable and working Kai. There have also been fear-bolted shikoku, kishu and shiba- and ALL dog owners are advised to keep their dogs from running off in a panic (think about all the warnings you read about around 4th of July, or all the dogs who Thundershirts are marketed to- they aren't written just for NK owners) during events.
-All of the kai who 'ran away' were adolescent or adult dogs in transition to new owners, or newly arrived at new owners, experienced a sudden scare in an unfamiliar place followed by equipment failure, then realized they had no deeply bonded person present to help them and had no idea where they were, or who or where was safe. It happens to spooky dogs from other breeds, too. They don't just run away randomly. Three of the Lost Kai were safely recovered, and most not-a-puppy-anymore Kai are successfully placed and rebonded without getting lost.
My own two kai hike and hunt with me in the forest and I couldn't prevent them from running away and going feral on a random whim if that were a real possibility. That is not how Kai have gotten lost, and that (running away) is not an attribute of their hunting heritage- NK are hunting partners, not loose cannons that run off on their own because they suddenly hate you or a blow a synapse and forget you. You do need to train them and practice and keep their habits crisp for whatever environment they live and work in, but they are dogs- not magic mythical ninja special-primitive-powers close-to-the-wolf-bullshit dogs, and not freakout glass-jaw candyass dogs you need to keep in a curio cabinet. They are dogs like many, many others- they are adaptable, close bonders who just won't ditch you for any old guy walking by with a hamburger in hand. They love to work and do things together. If an owner cannot exercise them and engage with them together frequently enough, then they may take off on their own hunt if their area is not secure, but you got a dog (presumably) to get out and have fun with it- they will express their lack of exercise or enjoyment by destroying your house way before they run away.
-There are many urban Kai- Nero walks in downtown Tokyo every day- that's one of the Biggest of Big Cities! and he's no puppy. Very few Kai are hiked around in the open woods daily, most are at least suburban. Many other NK live urban lives- ask around and see.
- My experience with Kai has been deep and a source of great joy and love and fun, outdoor exercise, learning and good friends, and I feel that it would be a sad thing for people to just write off Kai due to disproportionate hype. There is certainly art and science to raising NK- they aren't idiot=proof beginner dogs, but a lot of us on this forum were given a chance to get into these breeds, when our situations weren't classically perfect- we were young, or poor, or still in an apartment, or finishing school, or already had a challenging dog in our care- and we should pass that spirit on and not over-emphasize the negative in proportion to the tremendous rewards of our relationships with these dogs.
I've been slammed before for trying to give Kai a positive image. I mean yeah, not every Kai is a Matsu / Tavi / Juno / Kimber / Kona, but lots are, and they all have their own quirks too.
I had never met a Kai before Tavi, I've only ever had German Shepherds before her, and she definitely is not one but she has brought so much to our home..
Seriously, its these moments that make me want 1000 Kai, think of all the silliness...
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=743772505680930
That being said, I have specifically avoided this thread because I feel that the OP is asking for the right things to say to to a breeder in order to be approved for a puppy - in other words, he wants the answers to the test in advance. In school we call that cheating. When I volunteered at a cat rescue, we had a number of people who would apply for kittens and they would put on the application what they thought we wanted to hear with regards to indoor/outdoor, declawing, spay/neuter, etc - not what they actually intended to do. It was more difficult to discover the true intentions of applicants because of this, to trick them into revealing that they're not who they said they were on their application. Supporting this thread and telling the OP what he should tell breeders when he applies for a puppy is making some future breeders' screening process more difficult, and that bothers me.
We've moved apartment complexes with Suki, the older one, and she did not have one of those "run away" moments, even though we came from an apartment with roommates to our current one with just us. She trusts hu-mom and dad, so where she is happy to go where we go whether that's to a new home, an outdoor restaurant, just exploring the area around us. (Disclaimer: we've had her since 8 weeks, she was only 6 months old when we moved and have no experience with an adult re-homed Kai).
Suki is a half-sister (plus a little more? Idk it's a strange half-sister/aunt/niece relationship lol) to Michelle's Kimber, and is similar in temperament. Bold, fearless, really social with any living thing, not at all what we expected out of a Kai.
Luna is completely unrelated, but tends to border on the spooked Kai stereotype. She's not quite 5 months old (so it might be a fear period for her), but she tends to get spooked by unexpected noises, sights, etc. but that's something we're working on. The difference between Luna and that "Kais run away" stereotype, is that if Luna runs from something scary, she runs to me. She and I have bonded fiercely and she knows that I protect her from those unknown things.
I don't want this thread to become the "Kai thread", but I do want to make a few points..
I too am not happy with the direction the Kai "vibe" has gone on the forum, but I largely stay out of it as I want the Kai's reputation to be driven by owner experience and not breeder experience.
I think it's really important, as @WrylyBrindle points out, to consider the fact that every dog is an individual and while their base temperament may be inherited, it is also augmented by their environment (owner, surroundings, other dogs, experience, etc). I think the Kai gets the "runaway" rep because of the the "squeaky wheel syndrome" - we hear about the bad things that happen to just a few Kai more than we hear about all the good things that happen to the rest of the Kai.
Putting some statistics in place, we (Yamabushi Kennel) has produced about 80 Kai pups, of which 4 of them have been lost or runaway (Taka, Shakko, Mishi, and Kiba in Hawaii). That's only 5% of the Kai we've produced. Also, in everyone of those situation the Kai was placed in their new home at an age older than 6 months. None of the Kai we've produced who were placed in homes before 6 months of age have runaway. I should break this into a new thread, really....
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Anyway, on my ( and Chrystal's ) point about considering the individual, What @asian.sapphire writes about the Kishu I find interesting because my 3 Kishu only fit a few of the details she mentioned... My Kishu are not skittish dogs at all, actually that is one of the best qualities I have found in the Kishu - as far as NK go, they have really solid nerves! (at least mine do)
Also, my Kishu LOVE meeting people and have bonded with me and my wife the same. I see no favoritism from them.
Also, my Kishu LOVES kids, and are GREAT with my daughter. I've not (yet) met a Kishu that doesn't like kids.
So, point is, we have to consider the individual. Perhaps my Kishu are not the "norm", or maybe @asian.sapphire's is not the "norm"... It doesn't really matter, these are examples of Kishu Ken, and so anyone looking into getting a Kishu should consider all of the info provided when deciding on the breed. You could get one that fits my description, or one that fits @asian.sapphire's description. This is where knowing the parents of your pup is crucial.
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On the topic of "who should get a dog", which is the OP's question. When we, as a breeder, choose homes for our pups we take a holistic approach - we look at the person's whole situation. The very most important thing to us is this: Is this person open-minded and willing to learn how to properly care for their Kai Ken?
I'll place a pup in a less than ideal living situation but with an owner who is clearly interested in learning and providing for their pup the best they can over a person who has an ideal living situation but is clearly uninterested in improving their knowledge of caring for their new pup.
There really is no ideal living situation anyway. We all have jobs, we all have to work, we all have to leave our dogs alone at times - that's just reality.
More generally, every dog is an individual. Most deviate from the breed description in one aspect or another. Part of writing or calling a breeder is establishing a relationship where ideally both parties have a firm grasp of the owner's expectations and limits and deciding whether that home will be a good fit for a particular dog.
@WrylyBrindle thank you so much, I really have become interested in kai Ken, and the other nk, I enjoy learning about them and my family and everyone I talk dogs with are interested in learning more about these dogs. I chose not to go solely on the advice/ experiences of my peers when it came to learning about owning a dog, instead I sought out people who in addition to knowing and owning dogs I'm interested in, actually actively LIVE with their dogs. I love you guys for that.
@PoetikDragon maybe you saw through my charade, or maybe I want to see where I can improve upon my lifestyle, in order for a dog to fit in it. It could be either, but something of my existence on this forum (name, picture, questions) has allowed you to conclude that in lxl, x is negative. The nerd in me is a little curious as to how you came to that conclusion.
@violet_in_seville I will be able to do that when I have more of an idea of what activities are available for dogs. This forum is wonderful for that because I'm able to see examples of these from dog owners who participate. It's not inconceivable that someone with no first world dog owning experience would need to be exposed to these alien concepts before being able to come up with a detailed plan for a dog's potential lifestyle.
Again, here to learn, as much as possible, certain things not effectively passed on in books.
No insidious plot to do anything morally wrong or plant seeds of discord, or be judged or made suspect for asking questions. Ego is such a thing.
Anyway, two questions: 1) have you thought about fostering? 2) have you had a chance to go through some of the threads in "hunting and working" and "shows, showing, and events?"
If you have the time, fostering is a great way to actually get some first hand experience with different breeds and to get some "first world dog experience" as you put it. It also would really help out any number of rescues in need. Or maybe think about volunteering at a rescue (you usually have to do some sort of intro session at the rescue/shelter) since they often need people to help walk, play with, groom the dogs. Those of us from the area could probably recommend some places looking for volunteer or foster homes in the greater NY area.
As for the threads, you'll see that there is a huge range of activities you can do with your dogs. Again this has to do with activities you think would be fun to do together. You actually seem to have some things in mind already since you said you'd like to do some traveling in your area with your pup. Some dogs even love just discovering new places. For instance, with my female dog, she really enjoys running errands with me. I kind of consider it one of our activities together since we'll do it for hours (strolling through the various outdoor markets and wine shops, etc of Brooklyn? A nice multi-hour, trip and she got to walk about 5-6 miles).
When you do met the breeds, you could ask the booth folks what they like to do with their dogs and why? There may be activities you didn't know existed, or things or places you had not realized were dog friendly.
[edited for typos and also to add]
Somewhere in the archives is a thread listing the dog friendly places people found. I know I listed a bunch for NY.
But other those those threes, you are right. I have never met a Kishu, a Shikoku or a Kai. I did have a chance to meet a Kai twice, but both time-- I was on a road-trip with someone who wanted to stay on the move.
I was already aware of the "reputation" of the breed, largely from published commentaries from FCI judges prior to the "misconception" thread. But I gave the benefit of the doubt given @BradA1878 and others' experience of off-leash specimens of the breed; and merely chalked some of the tales on the forums to the dogs' environment.
But that sort of seem the same mentality in the rescue-culture where anything short of an ideal home for a dog would be a disaster; and before anyone can adopt a dog, they must meet all the criteria. That's why I bought my last two dogs-- because the nearby rescue groups wanted me to work only 4 hours a day, have a mortgage and a yard and so on.
Not sure how anyone can get a mortgage with only 20 hours of work a week. Regardless, it was easier to purchase a puppy and start anew than to comply with the demands of a rescue group trying to rehome a dog with unknown history.
There's only a few in the rescue world who are not cynical. Two which immediately come to mind are the Hoof and the Heel blog and "Beyond Breed" group led by Kim Wolf. I understand rescuers' concerns, but their tendency to focus on the negatives drive away people. No one does that with adopted children, and dog-people would do well to learn from that.
But, no, I don't have a negative opinion of the breed. I just want people to be aware what they sound like to others. Instead of emphasizing on the negatives, they should be analyzing why.
I think I'll leave the Kai conversation (mostly) alone. I don't really understand why it is an argument. Nothing that anyone said in the Kai thread was untrue--on the good side or the not so good side. Are we only supposed to share positive experiences? But you know, sometimes I think I have a different perspective from those who only have the rarer NKs, because I've seen plenty of bad situations with Shibas and AAs and people simply not being at all prepared for the dogs they get (and then seeing what happens to the dogs).
anyway, I'm of the opinion it is better to share all--the good and the bad and the in between, and it always seemed to me that Roshaad was exploring, thinking, not sure yet, and trying to get information to help make a decision--a decision which seems it still quite a bit down the road. And that's good!
As for the Kai issue:
I feel a bit guilty for the bad rap that the Kai have been getting lately because I posted so much about Shelby.
Shelby had a lot of life changes in her first year and developed anxiety. I was completely unprepared for it and sought out help here on the forum. Shelby WAS an extreme case, but we worked with her extensively. I stay at home now, so it's much easier to work with her on her schedule rather than on mine. She is a sturdy dog physically, and she is pretty sturdy emotionally now as well. I'm actually having to teach her manners now because she gets in everyone's face when they visit (stranger or not)! If you look at her littermates (NioxAyu litter), you can see that she was the exception instead of the rule, and I feel like that was mostly my fault.
Kai are good dogs. But, every breed has upsides and downsides. That's something important to remember. I chose a Kai over a few breeds because I felt it was the right fit for me and my family. I adore many other breeds, but after a lot of research I don't feel they would ever be right for me or my family.
You're doing the right thing by asking questions and researching. Everyone here has always given me amazing advice and never steered me wrong. You'll find the one for you.
I don't think anyone is saying discuss only the positives, but rather more transparency.
But it's good that @Roshaad is asking questions, so he can get a feel what it is like to be a dog-owner from all walks of life in all sort of environments from different backgrounds.
Regardless of the breed chosen, there is always some work involved. Everyone remembers that untrained herp-derp socially-clueless Lab which harass everyone trying to pester them into play. That's the nature of the breed; but very few people actually remember the quiet well-mannered Lab they pass by the yard everyday on the way to work.
So, really, no matter what breed chosen, the temperaments need to be addressed and dealt with accordingly. Most established dog-communities, especially ones going on for a good century, already have a wealth of information how to deal with those issues.
So, even if someone shy away from one breed, they will eventually have to owe up or face some of the issues in another breed. So, the question should be "is this dog compatible with my lifestyle?"
I have owned quite a few different breeds (well, they were owned more by the family and not so much by the individual), and all of them were and are a pain in the behind in their own unique ways. Some were insufferable only because of the living conditions (eg. excessive barking inside apartment units) or because of ill-suited climate (eg. deep snow; too hot et cetera); but that's not really the fault of the dogs, but the economic limitations of my career-path. But you know, if you move around enough in your lifetime and been around enough dogs, there is no perfect fit-- only compatibility.
The problem is not: saying anything less than stellar about the dogs. The problem is hyper focusing on a tiny minority of dogs whom terrible things have happened with (fearful bolting and loss in new homes), coupled with suppressing the sharing and importance of success experiences. Noone is saying Don't Say anything negative- we're saying include all true experiences. At this time, the negative has blossomed out of proportion unchecked (or rather, attempts at countering with some "cheer-up, it's not ALL like that, here's some good experiences" has been shouted down with "you are wearing rose colored glasses/forgetting that your dogs aren't perfect") and the evidence that this is out of balance and detrimental is that for the first time we actually have new/objective people deciding that, based on what they read here, the worst instances of a handful of dogs appear to outweigh the rest of the dogs and all of their good attributes to the point where the breed is not worth experiencing. I am saying that that is out of balance, and it's real balance, not Pollyanna, that I'd like to see return.
I am also saying- (in the case of the Kishu example above) that when someone wants to know about a breed, why do so many people (all breeds, all forums...) say "here are 7 specific awful things about them" and then offer such tripe as "I enjoy their essence?" as the 1 (nebulous) good thing? (I'm sorry, again- but it's the perfect example... you are not the only one to have said this, and you wont be the last.) Another instance where detailing bad stuff is deemed important, but saying anything good (or substantial) is somehow NOT? ...that's crazy.
LASTLY, and HOWEVER... Lisa correctly reminds me that while it is just not easy to buy a Kai, Shikoku, JA, Hokkaido, Kishu, on a whim- there are puppy mill shibas in pet shops that anyone can drop by on their way home from work, completely uneducated, and purchase with no screening whatsoever simply because they want the cute shiba they've seen in memes (or whatever) and then find themselves later punting the dog because they had absolutely no idea/didnt want to know/ or were inappropriate to care for any real dog in the first place. So I see that POV, and Im glad you brought that up because I forgot. Even for my 2 mutts, I had to apply, and be screened in writing, home visits and interviews by the rescues, so I forget that some people can have less oversight in their dog-getting experiences.
Roshaad: The best advice I think is to meet the breed and speak with a breeder who, when they ask questions of you, in turn you respond by being yourself. Having pat answers that are derived off of another source probably [ edit *] *will not* do anyone (you, dog, or breeder) any good in the long run. If you are true to what you are, then there will not be any problems. So glad you are asking questions about the breed now ahead of time.
I am sure after meeting the breed and reading through the various threads you will get an idea what will work for you and what feels right in regard to what you are seeking in a canine. Please go meet others with the breed and you will be able to narrow down what you can provide for your particular situation.
@ Poeticdragon: I completely understand and see your point. There are so many pretenders and anyone can be anything behind the facade of electronic media. Weeding through applicants and interviews is no small task. So glad you brought that up.
@ Souggy: I think you mention, "few rescues who are not cynical". Yes that may be true however, having been in rescue for a number of years and having adopted to more than one person (who in fact have been one time or another on either side of forums) I would say that I was certainly open minded enough to adopt to them. I find it frustrating and highly irritating that is the generalized statement and all that is said of rescues. Unless you have been full scale into that world and the process, I think it is best left to another thread if there are questions and assumptions to be explored.
@ wrylybrindley etc etc....honestly I don't think there is a warped sense of doom presented in regard to descriptions of Kai. Granted my reality may not be anyone elses in regard to their dog but somewhere in between the threads lies some truth.
WrylyBrindle states: "You do need to train them and practice and keep their habits crisp for whatever environment they live and work in, but they are dogs- not magic mythical ninja special-primitive-powers close-to-the-wolf-bullshit dogs, and not freakout glass-jaw candyass dogs you need to keep in a curio cabinet."
As far as "candyass", yes there will be times with any dog that will exhibit this one time or another, and one may wonder where the hell it came from. The more important question is which breeders will provide the support to address that when it does happen? Where will the follow up come from?
Honestly, I leave this side of the forum scratching my head....what really do we want to paint about the breed? On one hand, we some way assigned a "no guts no glory" ideology and on the other simply "roses and sunshine" if one chooses to go in a particular direction, breeder, or particular line the breed can seemingly can do anything.
Generally, maybe it best ask ourselves, are we marketing for a glossy breeder ad for sales, or are we truthfully providing prospective between the expletives, hardline defense and personal affronts .
Snf
I got on well with the maltese that was our tenant's maltese for a year or so, but she was small, very friendly and she did take protecting her owner's hair salon seriously.
I think from what I've been hearing about kai that they're actually pretty awesome, almost sounding too good to be true. That they have flaws makes them more believeable, but before accepting the potential for those flaws, I want to learn more about the other nk, like the kishu, which I haven't heard as much about, to see if the kai might have a contender.
I've to admit, the rescue groups in my hometown, which I ended up moving back to a few years later, are better compared to the city where I moved to start my career. I actually had applications approved from the town I lived in. The only things they ever asked were maps of local dog-parks and hiking trails and that one should live within at least 2 hours of a hiking trail.
The organization never asked for my car ownership, my salary or working hours. They never asked if I lived in a "shady neighbourhood" or a "good neighbourhood", what my hobbies were or anything like that. Nothing absurd like "do you belong to a vegan organization?" Their primary interest was ensuring the adoptee has room and space to roam. But the adoptions never fell through because every time a dog that was 25-40 lbs with a gritty personality (since I specified I was looking for a good off-leash hiking dog like ACD) came up, someone else happened to live closer and the organization didn't feel like driving to the airport.
But those simplified requirements is probably because everyone in town works in the oil-fields, so the only thing they ask is who will take care of the dog during FIFO (Fly In-Fly Out) jobs; or they want to make sure you don't work more than 40-50 hours a week. But that's probably because they know there are not a lot of engineers or software programmers, the ones who can afford to reduce their hours, compared to the number of blue-collared workers. So, if they demand the same thing from rescue organizations in the city, they would never get a single dog adopted out.
The ones within the city were very strict on kind of house, what kind of yard, what kind of income, how many working hours, what kind of organizations, what kind of hobbies (anything exploitative like hunting or fishing is a big NO-NO to many of them), what kind of car owned and so on. And yeah, I had applications refused only because there was no way I could work under 30 hours.
So when I did finally find a breeder of a dog I was interested in, she already knew about my financial situation. So, she asked for trail-maps, nearby provincial parks, where public lands are, all the vet offices within 2 hours distances-- and so on. Once I provided those, she agreed to sell a dog.
With my second dog, after I finally became fiscally-secure enough to pursue more expensive hobbies, the breeder only wanted to know what game were legal to hunt and when the seasons where and what kind of permits I had to apply for. He also wanted to know if I had my firearm licence and hunting licence. But he didn't ask anything more than that.
But point is, not every dog-owner are going to be an ideal situation.
I think when we're looking for a new dog, we're very focused on the positive too, and need a reality check sometime, just so we're aware that little Shiba will likely grow up into a holy terror for a couple of years before settling down to be quite a lovely dog (for example). Or so we're not surprised when the fun AA puppy turns out to be a lovely adult who is no longer in the least bit tolerant of other dogs.
So that's how I'm looking at it--and even when people are looking for the rarer breeds, it doesn't mean, necessarily, that because they end up here they are actually going to be a good match for a Kai or Kishu or Shikoku. Find out what the negatives MIGHT be, so a person can decide if that will work for them. And it's good to have all the experiences, but I also think it's important to note that just because one person can do X thing with their Kai, doesn't mean everyone can (and it's not just training--there is nothing that pisses me off more than the smug assumption that just because I trained my dog to do x, every dog can be trained that way....and the smug part refers to an annoying convo on Shibaholics, not here!!!!) But that is the same with the negative things: just because some Kai ran off (in extraordinary circumstances!) doesn't mean all will.
I also don't think it is unfair to stress a certain strong flight instinct in Kai though. My Kai is a wonderful dog. He gets along with other dogs, which is so valuable for me in a somewhat volatile pack situation (thankfully less volatile these days after we lost one Shiba). he is a great all around companion--fun to travel with, fun to train--how he loves agility, though only on his terms!--just fun to be with. He's sensitive in all the best ways and responsive to training but also just moods and day to day activity. He does have a decent recall too, and might be even better if we worked on it more. But he also has a strong flight instinct that I've not seen in any of my other dogs, and it has nothing to do with recall. When he's scared, or even nervous (as in a new place), he will bolt. He actually searches out escape routes as part of his unease in new places. So it is something to watch, and something I never let down my vigilance about. And the difference with him is, I can see, when he gets very frightened (which thankfully only happened once!), he really needs some time to come back to his front brain, as I believe WrylyBrindle has described it. That time period, though, is critical and he could be lost in that time. So I'm very careful with him.
On the other hand, I thinking have dogs off leash--especially Nihon Ken--is way way overrated (and potentially really really annoying to other people who might have to deal with the dog) and I don't do it anyway for the most part. So it has taken little adjustment on my part really to deal with the flight tendency. I'm just aware of it. (And of course, he does do agility off leash, in an enclosed environment).
And regarding rescue: yeah, harder to get a dog from a rescue sometimes than not. I've been turned down by many, mostly because they didn't like the mix of breeds I had or wanted. Once I got turned down not for myself but for my friend because I said I didn't believe in all the Cesar Millan bs (and thus ruined her chance to get a rescue GSD, but we decided, then, she probably didn't want a dog from that rescue anyway). I don't know if any rescues would ever give me a dog, though I personally think I'm a good candidate. So sometimes going the rescue route is HARDER than buying a puppy. I do hope someday a Shiba rescue will deem me acceptable to take on an elder though, as I would very much like to do that, someday in the distant future after my old somewhat cranky near-elder is gone.
I like the thought of a dog having the off leash capability for emergency situations.
Getting an animal from a rescue can be a major pain. I got one of my cats only because the rescue people knew me from my job at Petsmart. Otherwise, Jefferson might have sat in a foster home for a long time because of his history.
@Rashaad maybe you can volunteer at a shelter and work your way up to fostering? That would be a great way to slowly get used to having a dog in the house.
Rescues can definitely be difficult to get animals from. They're very protective. In fact it's kind of that "are-you-perfect" mentality that drove me to wondering similar questions to Rashaad. "What do breeders look for?" "What kinds of questions should I be asking breeders, and asking of myself?" "How do I show that I am serious and committed about this decision?"" I don't think you can really call seeking advice on this cheating, particularly when half of the advice is to 1) be honest and 2) seek knowledge. There is no clear cut and easy answer, and as most people have pointed out, most of the people here do not fit the "ideal." The secret then becomes what the breeder sees in you, which can only come from honesty. Canned responses, especially those that sound too perfect, would sound suspicious, I would think.
It's probably like Shigeru was telling me about the breed standard. Dogs are not machines, and although there is an "ideal" each dog will have its flaws. Some might have an amazing coat and a great head shape, but perhaps the conformation of the tail or chest shape is not as great. Just the same a potential owner is going to have characteristics that are appealing and some that are not. Ultimately whether it is just a small "penalty" against the perfect ideal or an actual deal-breaker comes down to the severity of the issue and what we're willing to do to work around it, and that can only come from considering and reflecting on the questions above.
Given this theme continues to be brought up I will say It is unfortunate that Souggy and so many others here had to directly encounter issues described in attempting to foster the vast amount of dogs so obviously in need of care.
It really is so sad there such animosity for rescues and a need to spread rumors or classify all rescue organizations in the same way. Organizational culture differs and varies from group to group.
I find it ironic though, that many individuals when they don't get what they want, as they demand it, decide to degrade others and their efforts. Have you ever thought maybe that's part of the problem all around.
The fact remains there are many avenues when it come to obtaining a dog. If you don't like the rescue system or one orgs way of handling clients, then go to the the shelter directly to obtain your dog or better yet just volunteer at the shelter even if it is just for one week. There are plenty of dogs and the simple fact the shelter needs helping hands means they generally will welcome help, often leading to adoption should one find that route appropriate for them.
There are so many dogs and simply not enough room or time for most facilities to address them all. By going to the shelter directly to obtain takes one more out of the system that avoids having it be fostered by supposed "horrible" rescues.
Let's hope there is never a need for full time rescue in the Kai breed. May individuals here be able to pull themselves up their bootstraps should they get themselves stranded in regard to their dog.
Choose wisely, whatever route you decide to take..
Best of Luck to everyone!
Snf
So people are already painting breeders with a broad-brush. If you have noticed, any time a breeding practice gets criticized, such criticisms are always coupled with a model which offers better alternative.
Likewise, there are just as many criticisms of rescue-community like Nathan Winograd's Redemption.
How is this any different? I shared my experience, and offered Suzanne Philips's Hoof and Paw blog and Kim Wolf's Beyond Breed as a potential alternative.
Someone with an axe to grind would just complain without offering something else in return.
For myself, I strongly support rescues. I can't foster with my dog situation right now, but I donate money to Shiba and Akita rescues. I try to signal boost Shiba rescue fundraisers and Shibas in need. I very much DO support rescue.
And I've had bad experiences with several rescues when I tried to adopt a dog from several rescues in nearby states. (And I also had a great experience with a local Akita rescue, which I also support, but they didn't have a dog for me). I've seen plenty of rescues with too stringent adoption policies (because honestly, if I can't adopt from a rescue then I wonder exactly who they are looking for?), but it's the rescue people's choices--they're trying to do what is best for the dogs they have. That's their choice, and while I think sometimes they are shooting themselves in the foot by rejecting good possible homes, that is still their choice. I just hope that when I finally am able to adopt again, I'll know enough people in rescue that someone understand that I would, in fact, be a good home for an elder Shiba even though I have Akitas too.
And yes, we have also had plenty of discussion of bad breeders. As you know, it happens on the Shiba forum in particular every single day.
So I looked at it, I managed to schedule all of my classes on my days off, and had my work let me have days off during the week, so I was never gone for more than 9 hours with commute at a time. And going with any of the NK building that bond over the first few years together is SO important, I cannot stress it enough. I looked at the money and cut back any extra expenses I had (good thing too because I had almost $400 in vet bills in my first two months with a raging ear infection with my girl; coincidentally I also haven't had cable since that time, nor had my nails done, nor gone on a "real" vacation). I made sure my housing was okay with me bringing in a dog since they had a lab puppy, and finally I looked at my five and ten year plan because, at 24 at the time I'm basing that I will have many large changes in the next ten years, probably fewer from the 10-15mark. If I get a new job/lose my job, will I take my dog with me where ever I go? If I move can I find dog friendly housing and have that as a priority? What if i get in a relationship and he doesn't like dogs/is allergic to dogs? (Too bad sucka my pup was here first and stays with me) If something were to happen to me, who would be willing to take the dog. Do I have the time and money to train the dog/take it to classes/keep him-her socialized? Am I ready to sacrifice some of my social life to be home every 8 hours to walk my dog? Kiss happy hour good bye, as well as overnights anywhere else unless you leave late/come back early (or get a fantastic roommate who loves your dog too).
When I came to that conclusion that yes, yes, check that, yup I really buckled down and looked at my rescues, none of which had "my" dog after visiting and seeing many. On a lark I found Kais and did some research and found--uh this is mah breed! And two years and several months later here we are, and I have a second dog since that time, have moved twice, graduated grad school, changed jobs, dated and dumped some people and still have me and my puppers going strong.
All of this being said you have to really look at your situation. If you aren't getting a kai I would recommend a young adult dog over a puppy, with an adult rehome kai I would recommend being home more, but that's just me, I prefer adult dogs to puppies (also when you train a dog you are really training the person to be consistent in their expectations of their dog's responses to a command--so if your family helps out everyone could train your pup differently).
Lastly I think you posted this and it may have been someone else but I think when people hear independent dog they imagine a cat in dogs fur (I'm not a cat person so this analogy may not be perfect). But an independent dog still wants to be with it's person, maybe not nose punching you ever 10 seconds because you aren't petting them constantly (cough like a lab puppy I once lived with), but at least chilling in the same room with you. To me when I hear independent dog I don't think of the dog who is aloof to humans but the dog who is smart enough to think for themselves. You said sit, but you want me to do it for kibble? Nahhhhh. You want me to sit here with you rather than chase that squirrel and you'll tap my head.....nahhhhh. Oh if I don't bark at that dog you'll give me liver?.....Sure! My shiba has to be constantly underfoot. We put a flipping bell on her so we don't keep tripping over her. She doesn't want to be petted justtttt right in your blind spot, especially when carrying awkward bundles. My Kai will come to me when she wants pets but once she's overstimulated/pet satisfied she will find a perch in the room where she can watch me. This is what I think it means to have an independent dog, not one who will do a half day well/happily by themselves. Super random tangent, wasn't supposed to be preachy but something weird I've been clarifying with myself on walks as I mull over how to train some bad habits out of my pups.
Also NK in general are very, very, smart. Bored dogs=potentially destructive dogs.
Cdenny: thanks for the great example of how you worked a dog into your life. I have been there too. I waited until much later after getting myself set up a bit, after an undergraduate degree, before I brought in a dog. Later I juggled grad school with a dog but I did have help during those long hours. Each situation is different just as each dog is different in their needs. Nothing in life is perfect generally, and if it is it won't stay that way for long (lol).
Souggy states:
" I wouldn't call it over-
generalizing when people inside the rescue-community are accusing groups of classism, and in some cases, racism, in the past few years for some of the adoption requirements on the application."
How is that not offensive and inflammatory? Most certainly inaccurate in a multitude of situations that I have witnessed. Not to say things like this do not exist in this world, certainly nice of you to paint such a lovely picture of what people do in regard to canine adoption.
Seriously I have nothing more to say.
Snf