I heard xxx breed is independent.

cdenney

So I've noticed that in the past six months we have had many new members come here to learn and absorb the doggyness (woot!). Many have come looking for the breed that might work in their situation and often cite an independent dog, because like some of us they just aren't lab/golden retriever people (nothing wrong with those people I just can't, can't, can't have a dog like that full time). But I find it interesting the nuances in the concept of "independent dogs", and I wanted to explore the connotations we have of what does an 'independent' dog mean.

So to start since I've had deep philosophical discussions with myself about this. I see both my kai and shiba as handler heavy independent dogs. And let me preface by handler heavy I don't mean heavy training. Both Sachi and Nikki excel when they spend more time with me (not on me or nagging me, but just chilling, or walking, or training, or petting just not on me 100% of the time) but when they can look to me for direction when they are unsure, or for reassurement that they did good things. Sachi especially since we moved to the city trusts me to lead her and warn her and show her how to react. Since moving a few weeks ago I have started training an 'aware' command just so she is situationally alert and not hyper-focused on me, a tree, smell etc. It is a work in process command but this means when I know a runner is coming or a large bus is going to pass I can set her up for success to be like 'huh there goes something' versus 'did you see that? where did that come from?'

When I hear independent dog and what I see with my two is not that dogs that likes to be on their own, but dogs who think for themselves. You said sit, but is it worth it? They might not have the vulcan mindmeld that I could get with a border collie but the intelligence to rationalize what they want for the reward.

I don't know maybe i'm talking crazy here but that's how I process it. Thoughts?

TRDmom

I tend to agree with you. "Independent thinker" is perhaps a better description than just "independent," which is general and can be misleading. Most dogs adapt to being home alone while their owner is a work/shopping/school etc. An independent/independent thinking dog isn't necessarily going to have an advantage over their more clingy counterparts when left home.

Some breeds were developed to be left with their flocks and had minimal human contact (e.g. livestock guardian breeds), but their companionship was from the flock and other dogs working with them. When removed from that setting, a livestock guardian breed still needs companionship from their owner/human flock.

In the reverse, many dogs like to roam for exercise and seeing/smelling new things (mental stimulation). Many labs or other clingy dogs will gladly roam free to satisfy these needs if they are not met by the owner. I believe that many dogs are 'door bolters' because they have been limited, and subsequently bored, with their living environment.

I took my dogs walking in various locations (e.g. downtown, different parks, the forest) and for car rides so they wouldn't get bored. The difference in say my boxer and TRD would be that my boxer wanted to be touched ALL of the time and would be RIGHT THERE around 90% of the time (I accidentally bumped, hit, kicked her so often because I would move and not realize she was so close). My TRD, while he likes to be with us, is content to curl up nearby (e.g. the floor or his kennel).

Kira_Inu

Great discussion idea - I think the term "independence" also has a lot to do with each individual's personal definition and perception. Not to mention that specific people may find an individual dog to be more or less independent than another which could vary quite a bit versus what another owner is used to.

There is a lot of grey area in the term so it will definitely be a difficult area to define. I perceive "independence" in my dog to be more that she is not easily placated as other breeds tend to be, but at the same time - she tends to be more "clingy" than normal Shibas are. It completely depends on what a person's opinion of the definition of "independent" is.

CrimsonO2

When I hear "independent" I tend to think that the relationship between owner and dog is more cohabitating/cooperative than it is commanding/conquering. It's a give-and-take and it's always an active discussion between dog and handler regarding what to do instead of "owner knows best, that's that, end of discussion" type behavior.

Jesse

Trzcina

An independent dog, to me, is one that (though it may be very closely bonded to the human) not only can, but also likes to solve problems for itself. It doesn't mean untrainable by any means, but it does influence what methods will work. It also can make it more of a challenge to consistently do well in things like formal competitive obedience, because the dog is more likely to make up variations on known behaviors than a dog that is more "dependent" (for lack of a better word, because all owned dogs are more or less dependent).

My example from experience, at this point, will be the two dogs that we had during the time I was in high school. I had a relatively independent Finnish Lapphund; my stepmother had a much less independent Sheltie mix. Emmee, the Lapphund, was very much bonded to me and enjoyed training and working--but enjoyed negotiating obstacles on hikes, and though she would sometimes look to me for guidance, she could easily make decisions for herself. Though we earned a UKC novice obedience title and a few agility titles, it took time--she would readily invent different ways of doing things, and could easily become bored with too much repetition. Megan, the Sheltie mix, never had any formal training--so I can't compare her in that regard. She was bonded to my stepmom, and shy enough to avoid contact with most other people--but wanted to be in more contact with my stepmom more often (Emmee preferred to be somewhere she could watch both me and the world at large; Megan preferred to be leaning against my stepmom). She would do what she was told, and wait for instructions. If, for example, you called both dogs and there was some form of barrier in the way, Megan would come to the barrier and then try to walk through it, then stop and wait, staring and barking, until helped or given further instructions. Emmee would sometimes decide it wasn't worth coming, but more often would find a way over, through, or around the barrier (depending on its nature).

That said, Megan dealt better with being left alone for an entire day than Emmee did. Emmee would get bored, and would find her own fun--which usually involved shredded paper or stolen food, even when she was 10+ years old and the cabinets were locked up with most desirable items out of reach. Emmee knew it wasn't worth trying to counter surf while being watched, but would note where the desirable item was and then steal it as soon as there were no humans in the room.

So, like just about everybody else said--it's the ability to think independently, solve problems to get what they want, and weigh options to some degree. Personally, it's a trait I enjoy in dogs--but I also understand why some other people do not.

souggy

Independent means the dog doesn't need handlers' direction to work.

Herding dogs, service-dogs and gun-dogs require directions or cues in order to function. The way they are trained is more akin to boot-camp. Going back to the fundamentals (eg. obedience) and building upon it is the core.

For example; there is a lot of daisy-chaining of behaviours in order to train a Lab to retrieve.

Independent breeds (spitzes, scenthounds, sighthounds, livestock guardian dogs) are more dependent on the environment and how they react to it. It's up to the handler to read the interaction of the environment and the canine to guide it toward the ideal behaviour. Their training is more centered toward rewarding the desirable behaviours and ignoring the undesirable. Biofeedback is the core of the training method.

For example; rewarding the beagle's natural circling behaiour by shooting the rabbit in front of it.

In my experience, biddable breeds are fantastic for social events like agility or a pheasant shoot. Independent breeds shine when it's only the hiker or the hunter alone in the wilderness. Of course, both types are equally enjoyable in both settings, but the learning curves are different in both scenarios.

The former is more people who enjoy regimentation and formalized rituals. The latter is more for people who enjoy a cooperative learning experience of approaching singularity.

Not sure why people think independence equals being a cat.

WrylyBrindle

To me, independence means initiative... to piggyback on what Dave (souggy) is saying: the dog has something to say, too and I am not too big to listen to it, in fact I rely on it! I can't see grouse by myself or know what the dogs are tracking on the leaves, gotta trust the dog ("The Kai don't Lie!" is our motto around here), not tell her you know better. Unless you do- as in "I see the pole and I know there's a beaver trap under that thinnish ice, so you should heel with me till we get past the pond." As we know from training, when a behavior comes from the dog's decision (even if you make it especially attractive by augmenting/greasing the skids at first), and is their idea, capture and retention rate is highly successful. In my experience, training independent dogs (2 Kai, a Rott/Kai/ller and a lurcher) in a cooperative way has led to some really satisfying bonds and in the best moments, what Mihalyi Cziksethmihalyi calls "Flow."

The latter is more for people who enjoy a cooperative learning experience of approaching singularity.

Mmm- HM!

shibamistress

When I say independent, I'm thinking of some things people have mentioned. sometimes independent dogs have to be convinced to do things, and certainly wanting to please is not going to be enough. Independent dogs are problem solvers, and that problem solving may or may not always be appealing (because sometimes the problems they are solving are things like "I really want x on the counter, but my person doesn't let me get up there. I know, I'll wait til they're out of the room and snatch it!") I tend to think independent dogs tend to be less biddable, because they need to have a reason for doing things, and just because we want them to is not usually a good enough reason. (Even my Akitas, which I think are somewhat biddable, won't do multiple repetitions in obedience class, for example, because they get bored easily, and even a good treat is not enough to motivate them to a down stay for the 6th time--I mean, hey, they already did it right!).

For me though, there is one way I think of independence as being somewhat cat-like, and I like this aspect of it: Independent dogs are not clingy. None of my dogs is clingy. They like being in the same room with me. My Akita will follow me around (the rest don't). They like to come over and get some affection on their terms, but they don't have to be in constant contact with me (like my GSD did). They're not velcro dogs, thank god! So in that way, I suppose they are cat-like--they want affection on their terms, and are often quite happy to ignore me. I don't have cats, so I don't know if this is really catlike or not, but I think it is part of what people are referring to when they make the cat comparison.

Myabee09

I can answer the cat like question, since I have 2 with extremely different personalities. My oldest, Jefferson, could care less to be in the same room as the humans most of the time, but come bed time he's right there. He sleeps next to me and "talks" to me in the mornings. The kitten, Herman Merman, is the polar opposite. He MUST be in the same room as you, and follows me everywhere. He is a very social cat, but doesn't require the level of interaction that most dogs require, though I have taught him to sit and play fetch. Both cats prefer to hang out with each other and sleep together during the day.

The cats actually remind me a lot of my NK girls. They love being together, one follows me everywhere while the other doesn't, and they both want to be in a room with someone, but not necessarily interacting with that person. My Chihuahua is not independent. She's almost co-dependent. She goes wherever I go, and we jokingly call her my tumor because she always wants to sit in my lap or be held by me. She needs almost constant interaction of some sort, either from me or the other dogs. Mya is big on manners and corrects my little one often (but gently).

My definition of independent follows what a lot of you are saying. An independent dog, to me, thinks for itself and knows it relies on you for food and shelter, but isn't clingy. They listen for the most part, but can be hard headed at times. When you give them a command you can see the wheels turning in their head trying to make sure there's something in it for them because they're smart dogs. I consider my NK girls to be independent because of their intelligence and other personality traits. Not to put down other breeds, but some just aren't as intelligent as others, which causes more dependency. My Chihuahua is a very sweet dog, but not very bright. My previous chi was the same way and my parents' 2 Chihuahuas are also the same. They aren't independent because they don't have the brain capacity to ever be independent. It's not a bad thing, just different. I still love my little girl the same as my big ones, she just needs more daily guidance, and that's alright in my book.