Questions from a newbie
Hello, this is my first post here, and you can read a little about me in the Introduction Forum here.
I live in Socal and am really interested in getting a Shikoku. The Family Pet Expo next month is really close to where I live so I may attend it to meet one up close. I just have a few questions I'm hoping you guys could answer:
I live in Socal and am really interested in getting a Shikoku. The Family Pet Expo next month is really close to where I live so I may attend it to meet one up close. I just have a few questions I'm hoping you guys could answer:
I have more questions but these will do for now. Thank you!
1) How long does it take for a Shikoku to reach full maturity in weight/size?
2) How much do these dogs typically cost?
3) How bad are the waiting-lists? So far I've gleaned that there are only about 3-4 breeders in North America so I imagine it must be difficult to reserve a dog, but at the same time this breed seems very unknown for the most part to most people.
4) I live in an apartment, and am soon moving to one that has huge lawns and running trails. Every breeder I've looked at so far strongly encourages (or even requires) a fenced yard to even consider me as an applicant. Do you think it would be possible to find a breeder that would be willing to sell me a Shikoku, or should I just give up my quest now until I get my own place someday? At the moment, "settling" for a different breed isn't an option since I have my eyes set on a Shikoku.
Comments
It is good that you try to meet up with one first.
1) I would say that they reach their mature height around a 1 1/2, mature weight maybe a bit later. My Kuma, who is 2.5 y now, weighs 34 lbs, the same that he did about a year ago, but I think he grew slightly taller, maybe 0.25 inch (now about 20.5).
2) Between $2000 to $3000 (including shipping).
3). It depends. I was lucky and only waited 4 mo for Kuma, because someone dropped off the list the day I called. I waited 2.5 years for Sachi because I wanted a specific breeding pair. There are only 2 breeders who have had multiple litters on the ground, a few others may soon be starting up their breeding programs.
4) If you live in that situation, you will have to rely on frequent walks to get out the pent up energy and dog parks that are fenced to be free running. I would NOT let these dogs off leash except in a controlled environment. You would have to discuss your living situation with each breeder to be sure if they are okay with "no fenced yard".
Good luck! They are a neat dog, but are also unique in temperament, usually not really suited for 1st time dog owners.
1) How long does it take for a Shikoku to reach full maturity in weight/size?
>> It will depend on the time you spay/neuter your dog, but generally I agree with Kris's time frame. I wanted to add that it seems Shikoku reach social maturity between 2 - 3 years. This is important to note as that is a longer adolescence period than most breeds of the same size. This means a Shikoku owner will have to deal with more "adolescent shenanigans" than, say, a Kai owner.
2) How much do these dogs typically cost?
>> What Kris wrote, but I think the "including shipping" part is specific to NA shipping. If you shipped from Europe, for example, I would expect to pay +$5k for the pup + shipping. I know the shipping cost alone for shipping from Japan or Europe is around $2k.
4) I live in an apartment, and am soon moving to one that has huge lawns and running trails. Every breeder I've looked at so far strongly encourages (or even requires) a fenced yard to even consider me as an applicant. Do you think it would be possible to find a breeder that would be willing to sell me a Shikoku, or should I just give up my quest now until I get my own place someday? At the moment, "settling" for a different breed isn't an option since I have my eyes set on a Shikoku.
>> I think you will have to take the time and really sell your situation to the breeder you chose. Explains that you are willing to take several walks a day to make sure your pup is happy. I'm sure, if you took the time to really explain your dedication to fulfilling you dog's needs, a breeder would place a pup with you. This is assuming you are willing to put in that level of effort (lots of walks and socialization), if you are not, then I'd suggest finding a different breed. The walks and socialization a Shikoku needs, especially a young one, is not a breed requirement - its a necessity - for your sanity.
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The only thing I'll add is...
3) How bad are the waiting-lists? So far I've gleaned that there are only about 3-4 breeders in North America so I imagine it must be difficult to reserve a dog, but at the same time this breed seems very unknown for the most part to most people.
---> It REALLY depends. Some people have only had to wait a few months [ like Kris ] but I'd say she's more of the exception, not the rule. Thing is, the breeders are producing living creatures, not TV's or Cameras, so it's really a "gamble" as to how long.
For example, last year, I *think* there were only 1 to 3 litters produced in NA between all 3 NA breeders. with Shikoku only have 2 - 5 puppies per litter, it wasn't a lot. [ & one litter only had 1 pup ]
Also bare in mind, there will be people in front of you waiting, so you will not get notified unless the people in front of you "pass" on a litter.
It also depends on how specific you are. If you want "any" shikoku, your wait will be shorter. If you want a Red Sesame Male, Black Sesame Female, etc. a "specific" type of shika, you're wait will be much longer.
I'd say, realistically, expect to be waiting at least a year. You might get one earlier, or you might get one later, but I'd say a year is a good time frame to keep in your mind. ~
- Agreed to both Kris & Brad...some may also continue to "fill out" up to around 2 years of age and perhaps even a bit after depending upon individual dog.
2) How much do these dogs typically cost?
- Expect to pay on average about $2,000 and then add in any additional costs: travel expenses (i.e. car/gas, plane, hotel), supplies/equipment (i.e. food, crate, potty pads/towls), health checks, etc.
3) How bad are the waiting-lists? So far I've gleaned that there are only about 3-4 breeders in North America so I imagine it must be difficult to reserve a dog, but at the same time this breed seems very unknown for the most part to most people.
- Agreed, the "average" wait time is at least 1 year, some waits may be more lengthy or much shorter then expect depending upon owner preferences.
4) I live in an apartment, and am soon moving to one that has huge lawns and running trails. Every breeder I've looked at so far strongly encourages (or even requires) a fenced yard to even consider me as an applicant. Do you think it would be possible to find a breeder that would be willing to sell me a Shikoku, or should I just give up my quest now until I get my own place someday? At the moment, "settling" for a different breed isn't an option since I have my eyes set on a Shikoku.
- You should have a secure yard/large patio, lots of a time, dedication and plenty of "field trips". Shikoku love to RUN! If you don't take your Shikoku out for a run your living room AND kitchen will become an agility course =]. Your Shika will be more inclined to chew on shoes, slippers, plants, "re-arrange" your household items...in other words will get into trouble. They are generally quiet dogs but if bored they may vocalize...might depend on the individual dog...but they CAN be loud if they so wish. You'll also need to come up with more mentally situmilating games to amuse your Nihon Ken for as long as their attention span will hold. You CAN'T be lazy! Try to sleep in...your Shikoku will nudge you and lick your face in an attempt to wake up you...if that doesn't work, they have no choice but to pounce onto your stomach...that usually does the trick =p. They are SUPER energetic dogs as it is, don't let their seemingly calm disposition fool you!
I definitely plan on attending the Pet Expo next month to check out all the Shikokus, but at this point I'm really excited at the prospect of owning one myself and bringing a sixth Shikoku to southern california. I also really think that I could sell a breeder on my situation and dedication to the dog. My workplace is dog-friendly to an extent and people bring in their dogs all time to play and run around on the giant grassy courtyard at lunch, so bringing him to work sometimes is a possibility. I'm also getting lots of good advice from friends/coworkers with dog/puppy experience.
Looking at the price, it's definitely not looking like a small investment, and I'm up to take on the challenge of taking care of this "less refined" dog (or at least I will be as I mentally prepare myself for it in the year or so of waiting...haha). I'll know for sure once I go to the expo.
Anyways, the question now is...when. In the next week or so I'm likely going to be signing a lease to a no-pet unit and I'd like to anticipate when I'd move again to accommodate a puppy. Right now I'm looking at acquiring a Black Sesame Male shikoku puppy. How common are those?
I plan on emailing all of the North American breeders to get an idea of how long the wait might be (expected litter timelines, waiting lists, etc). So far the NA breeders I've gathered are: Am I missing anyone?
Black sesame male will make the wait longer. For instance, Katja just had 2 litters (first ones in a long while) and one had 2 female/1male and the other 3 females. The one male did happen to be black sesame but the females were all sesame and 1 black and tan.
I also think the kuro-goma is very striking, but of course like my akagoma pair as well. :-)
Your probably not gonna get an "Ahi", as she is the most "drivey" Shikoku Ken I have met, but, being a relatively unrefined breed with a small gene pool, I would plan for the worst case.
Ahi came from Katja (Akashima), and I know Katja prefers an easier dog than Ahi. She's done a good job of producing less "drivey" and better companion-type Shikoku Ken... So, if you are looking for less drive in your dog, you may want to start with her. Keeping in mind males can tend to be more reactive than the females and will require more socialization (tho females seem more "territorial" - which appears to be a common thing in all dog breeds).
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Nonetheless, I will say that Ahi is far worse than my two. Kuma, although intact, is not very reactive to other dogs and can focus well on me (ie, in obedience competitions). Sachi, although I have had her only about 2 weeks, is definitely easier in temperament than how Brad described Ahi at that age. She seems really smart and willing to please (and is even good about foot handling and nail trimming...I know Ahi is still a challenge regarding that). Kuma is easy on all those things too. Sachi is a bit more puppy than Kuma was in that she gets into more things, but still is "average" for puppies, IMHO (ie, no worse than the average puppy I have owned). Kuma was just exceptionally easy as a puppy.
However, they still are dogs that cannot run loose because of their hunting drive. They still are HIGH energy dogs that need to burn off energy to be happy.
When Ahi turned 3 years old she became tolerant of us cutting her nails. She doesn't love it, but the fight is 1/1000th what it was when she was 8 months old. So, they do grow out of some of it!
But yea, to Kris and my point, Ahi is generally pain in the ass... Loa, our other female, was a lot more like how Kris describes her Sachi.
I'm starting to see that *most* Shikoku now are more like Loa/Sachi and less like Ahi. The earliest Akashima litters (Ahi's litter and Ronan/Tenji's litter) seemed to be more reactive... Then just a few litters later (one generation out from the original imports) you get Loa/Maya, who is WAY easier than Ahi. Tho Akashima's Kuma is just now producing, so who knows what temperament he will throw in his progeny.
You all know I prefer a more "drivey" & difficult dog, but I certainly see that Loa is lot more fitting as a companion and probably better suited for the average American home (in general).
Kris, you plan to breed Kuma and Sachi, right? Sounds like they will make a really breeding nice pair.
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Well, if all goes well with Sachi's exams (in 2 years or so), then yes, I will most likely begin a breeding kennel. Kuma passed all his exams (hips, elbows, and knees) just recently. Edited to add: my Sachi is from the first litter of Katja's/Akashima's Kuma (not to be confused with my Kuma), so it will be interesting to see what the temperament of his offspring are like
They are really cool dogs, the neatest I have owned and suit me to my personality and style. So I want to do everything I can to keep the breed alive in the US so that I have dogs in the future for me personally. They combined the best of what I liked with Siberians without the negatives (IMHO, mainly the better obedience, more loyalty with Shikoku). But I also feel that I have a responsibility to educate others that this may not necessarily be the breed for them, given the high drive, primitive nature. I was always sad at how many people bought Siberians because they were cute puppies only to realize that they are very independent, escape artists, energetic (and destructive if they don't get that energy out) and then the people dump them in a shelter or they get hit in the road because the owner didn't have adequate fencing. I don't want that to happen to Shikoku.
4) I live in an apartment, and am soon moving to one that has huge lawns and running trails. Every breeder I've looked at so far strongly encourages (or even requires) a fenced yard to even consider me as an applicant. Do you think it would be possible to find a breeder that would be willing to sell me a Shikoku, or should I just give up my quest now until I get my own place someday? At the moment, "settling" for a different breed isn't an option since I have my eyes set on a Shikoku.
I own a shiba inu it's no shikoku, but she does have a good prey drive chasing bunnies, squirrels, birds, and pouncing on snakes is her favorite thing to do.. lol
I don't have a fence yard it'd be pretty expensive considering I have 16 acres..
A lot of people with dogs live in apartments you should be fine as long as you provide your dog with plenty of exercise, training, and other things like hiking, dog parks, or meet ups..
Try to meet a shikoku up close in personal so you can decide if this is a breed for you and be sure to ask if you have any questions.
Socialization for the pup is key too be sure to enroll him/she in a good puppy kindergarten, dog classes, and be sure to take the pup out on many positive experiences with different people and places as a puppy.
My socialization/experience ideas so far include: Obedience/training classes, walking him at least twice a day...before and after work. I go running at least once a week so he'd probably enjoy that. Put him in doggy day care once a week to socialize/play with other dogs early on. Try bringing him to work to play at lunch, or going home at lunch (I live nearby) to let him out for 15 minutes or so. Also, I live relatively close to the beach so we can go there occasionally and have him run around in the sand and water.
It's cool/interesting how small this community is and how you all know each other's dogs even though you're all in opposite parts of the country. Had no idea the breed was this rare, but that just makes it even more special.
How many Shikoku Kens are in North America total? Maybe you guys could do some sort of visualization, like a family tree, but even including imported ones. It would be cool, if I went to Peggy or Katja like you guys are suggesting, to see who my future/potential dog could be related to.
We (the forum community) pretty much know all the lines that are currently in NA and Europe. Almost all the dogs in NA have relatives as close as great grandparents - save for Dave S. and Corina's imports - but even Corina's have some distant relatives to the NA dogs (I dunno anything about Dave's female import's pedigree).
As for the count, I would guess its around 50 Shikoku in NA, maybe more now, but less than 100 for sure.
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As for your plan, that sounds good. My only comment would be to make sure you do a positive based training class and not a dominance based class. Shikoku are "handler soft", a lot softer than Shiba... If the training class you look at even mentions using "corrections" I would pass on it.
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I would be more than happy to share Koshi's pedigree.She is Nippo registered ,& I am half way through the process of registering her JKC. Just ask & I'll supply you all of that info:) I have not spayed her & have no intention to do so at this point . As far as breeding her, in the interest of NA shika I will certainly consider it later if she passses the necessary tests. :D
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I guess I need to get back to work on that app...
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Ok, I plan on emailing Katja and Peggy later today (do they post here btw?) just to get an idea of their schedules, etc.
Let me pick your brains a little more:
1) At this point do you think I'd benefit from one kennel or the other in terms of temperament/family friendliness or are they pretty much the same? The three recent pups from Akashima seem to be doing great right? (except for InuYasha chasing around some cats :P) Who are some recent shikokus from the O'Ikon kennel and how are they doing?
2) When I am ready to apply for a puppy: Since there are so few breeders in the community, and I'm looking for such a specific combination (black sesame male), how do you suggest I approach the wait lists? Would the breeders/community be ok with me being on two wait lists? I don't have any problems with waiting or being on one list, I am just curious as to how the best way to approach this is.
I'm not a breeder, but I'm just curious. Are you intending to get a Shikoku to keep intact for possible breeding or to neuter as a pet?
Parts of southern CA have mandatory spay/neuter laws that don't allow exemptions for rare breeds like the Shikoku. It would be a shame to get a genetically valuable Shikoku only to be forced to have it neutered.
My dog Kuma is from O'Ikon and is a super dog, who is 2.5 y old now. Sachi is from Katja and is 10 weeks old. Ayk has a good question too
The Animal Care Center section of my city's website just says that unaltered dogs have a higher license fee, that's all. I'd keep him intact.
1) At this point do you think I'd benefit from one kennel or the other in terms of temperament/family friendliness or are they pretty much the same? The three recent pups from Akashima seem to be doing great right? (except for InuYasha chasing around some cats :P) Who are some recent shikokus from the O'Ikon kennel and how are they doing?
>> I think either kennel would be a great choice. You can't really go wrong either way. Peggy and Katja are both wonderful & honest people.
2) When I am ready to apply for a puppy: Since there are so few breeders in the community, and I'm looking for such a specific combination (black sesame male), how do you suggest I approach the wait lists? Would the breeders/community be ok with me being on two wait lists? I don't have any problems with waiting or being on one list, I am just curious as to how the best way to approach this is.
>> I think you should pick one breeder, pay a deposit, and tell them what you want, and then wait. You could pay a deposit to both kennels but I wouldn't ask for it back if you got a puppy from the other kennel - so, if you go that route, I would expect to lose one deposit. (JMHO)
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Probably not the best example since this is a dog from hunting lines far removed from the show lines we know as the Shikoku, but here ya go.
That is Koshi's breeder & daughter. They seem to be super nice people . We have sent them photos of their /our girl . They send us back a photo album of koshi's family tree & many gifts. Shigeru, If you see Mr. Suzuki ,would you please tell him that Koshi is doing fabulous , we love her to greatly. And please send our greatest appreciation for allowing us to recieve one of his pups!.