Pictures of Kai coat color
Okay, I am going to try to take the time to post some pictures of Kai and give my opinion on what the coat color is. I am also listing pictures, names and etc so that you can see who has produced what in color. I have a theory as to when the possibility of "true" red brindle color occurs as to the "high color black brindle" that many perseeve as red/brindle. I think by example, it might explain my theory.
As this will be brike into several post, please be patient.
Marian
Classy Kennel, MI
As this will be brike into several post, please be patient.
Marian
Classy Kennel, MI
Comments
That's it for now, got to go, but will try to check in later today.
Enjoy the history!
Marian
Classy Kennel, MI
1. mahogany/red background with darker stripes vs. normal tan background with black stripes
2. thin stripes vs. bold, thick stripes
Mavrik's red color and dogs similar to him had puzzled me. I originally figured it was a matter of dosage of the brindle gene, but the comparision against Bar's JA pups (out of near solid black brindle x red) rules that out. Is the skin pigment on Mavrik's nose and eye rims just as black as a black brindle's? Is there a red/chocolate dilution gene in the Kai?
Also, just to confirm, did Daiichi have black whiskers or red/white whiskers?
Daiichi has light tan whiskers, dark brown nose except in the winter when it goes paler and he has significant brindles on his tail, forehead and legs, just not much on the body.
I am enclosing a picture of "Sam" (8months old) who was my lightest of the reds and took the longest to color deeper. He is now a deeper red then Daiichi. If you notice the deeper red of his ears, he colored into the ear color all over with little brindle markings. Sam's sire is Daiichi and his dam is the female that is pictures earlier with the person in the green sweatshirt with wolves on it. Sire is red, dam is blk/brindle, with dam's sire and dam dark blk/brindle as well.
In answer to the question of the red litter. This is a picture in my files from a litter born 4-5 years ago here. This was a Mavrik litter, not sure who the dam was.
What does Daiichi's parents/grandparents look like?
And En No Inochi / "Cookie"? (attached pic)
Cookie was born pure dark color with only a brindle spot on the top of one ear. She was actually dead when I found her stuffed under the padding in the birthing station. I worked on her for several minutes and brought her back to life. I fully expected her to be a little off from no oxygen for so long, but she ended up fine. By the time she was 6 weeks old, she was colored up all over with not a spot that was solid color anymore. Her sire is Mavrik also and her dam was a cho-brindle called "Tigger". Keep your fingers crossed, as she was bred and we are hoping for a litter from her within the month. This breeding was a blending of 3 lines of Kai.
Here is a picture of Cookie and her brother "ICHI" playing in the snow.
Now I have to sit down and study this. :-)
Structurally speaking, these are two of my favourite Kai! I love their faces! ~
I think Kai kens are becoming my second favorite breed my first is still shiba inu, but once I meet a Kai ken up close I think my number one will change.. lol
I have too many Kai loves ~
There is a modifer gene that reddens coat. It's recessive for the most part and but the strength of the reddening is inconsistant. I'm just going to denote it as ** as being very reddish.
Cream is caused by a known recessive gene, e. One copy [ E e] doesn't show anything outward. Two copies [e e] gives cream/white.
There is still a matter of dosage when it comes to the brindle gene, Kbr. One copy [Kbr ky] gives even spacing of stripes. Two copies [Kbr Kbr] gives thick stripes or near solid.
Mavrik's genetic make-up: * * Kbr ky E e. This would be red brindle and he is a carrier for cream.
Wishes' genetic make-up: * Kbr ky E e This would be highly brindled but not red. She would be a carrier for red and cream.
Tora's genetic make-up: * Kbr Kbr Glossy black brindle but a carrier of red. Unknown if carrier for cream.
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Now for the harder ones that I may be wrong on:
Uko: ** Kbr Kbr E e Not a glossy black brindle Kai but is reddish black. This could actually be a "red" brindle, but because the darker stripes are so wide, it's difficult to call her an akatora. She is a carrier for cream. Kohji may also have this gene combo as his grass picture shows him as having an overall reddish tint.
Here is what may be another example of this. This is Tomo from the Classy website.
Daiichi: ** Kbr ky e e This one was rather tough, but I leaned towards Kby ky instead of ky ky due to Marian's report of stripes.
Koda's coloring is like Tora's, and you probably hit it on the head.
Also, the Kai white patch. I wonder where that comes from. Is it independent?
And yes I am totally clueless when it comes to this.... :-)
Have any pics of Koda's parents? Are they posted anywhere on the forum?
The white patch happens when the melanocytes (color cells) don't fully migrate and spread out to cover the entire body while the embryo is developing. That's why white can be located on the chin, the chest, the tip of the toes, or the tip of the tail. The melanocytes didn't quite finish wrapping around the body. Sometimes this becomes fixed in breeds, like in boston terriers or collies.
As for whether the white patch is independent of brindle, yes it is in terms of being able to predicting it.
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This will probably be a terrible explanation of genetics but here it goes:
Every dog has two strands of DNA that affects a particular coat color trait. One strand comes from one of his father's two strands and the other one comes from one of his mother's two strands.
For the specific brindling trait, there are three combinations that are possible. Kbr Kbr (heavy brindle or nearly solid black), Kbr ky (medium brindle), and ky ky (no brindle).
Example 1:
If the father dog is a heavy brindle, he is Kbr Kbr. Only one "allele" can be passed down from him, so it'll be Kbr.
If the mother dog is a red like Mochi's grandmother, she is ky ky. Only one "allele" can be passed down from her, so it'll be ky.
Any offsrping of the above two has to be Kbr ky. (Kbr from father, ky from mother). The offspring should be medium-brindle.
Bar's new Japanese Akita litter is an example of this happening but with reverse parents. A near solid black female mated to a red male gave all medium-brindle pups.
Example 2:
If the father dog is a heavy brindle, he is Kbr Kbr. Only one "allele" can be passed down from him, so it'll be Kbr.
If the mother dog is a medium brindle, she is Kbr ky. Only one allele can be passed down from her, but it'll be random whether it'll be Kbr or ky.
Each individual offspring would have a 50/50 chance of being Kbr Kbr (heavy brindle) or Kbr ky (medium brindle).
Example 3:
Both parents are medium brindle, Kbr ky. Each can pass down either Kbr or ky.
If both passes down Kbr, the offspring is Kbr Kbr (heavy brindle).
If both passes down ky, the offspring is ky ky (no brindle).
If one of them passes down Kbr and the other ky, the offspring is Kbr ky (medium brindle).
The probability of getting heavy brindle is 25%, the probability of getting no brindle is 25%, and the probability of getting medium brindle is actually 50%. (There were two ways to get medium brindle. Kbr from father, ky from mother *or* ky from father, Kbr from mother)
There is something called a Punnett chart to help predict these probabilities, but with small litters like the medium-sized NK's, probabilities don't always line up with reality. It's like flipping a coin 4 times vs. 100 times. It's harder to get exactly 50% heads/50% tails with a smaller number of tosses vs. a larger number of tosses.
This is a little off-topic, but that really interests me now, because here in Germany that's part of biology-lessons of grade 9 or 10 I think. So did you just happen to be not interested while you were still at school or didn't your school teach genetics at all?
Genetics are a REALLY fascinating topic and I love to follow your theories, even though the language makes it a little bit harder to follow...
Didn't anyone want to list all related Shikokus? Same would be quite interesting for Kais and the other NKs as well and would make the genetics more obvious. The Kais colour-inheritance seems to be a little more complex than the other breeds or am I mistaken?
I'm dreaming of cool 3d-charts for all six NK breeds - a bit like in "The l-word"...
For genetics, yes, I did learn it in high school as well, but I also re-learned it in college and grad school. There's been less time for all that stuff to "leak" out of my brain. :-)
I enjoy coat color genetics because it's harmless fun. "No good dog is a bad color" for the most part. Especially in the US where there are higher priorities like health. I would love to apply it to expectant litters to guess what colors would come out.
I'm not too sure that Kais have the most complex inheritance. It was just difficult to pinpoint the initial allele assignments due to that "akatora" that isn't seen in other breeds, and how photos of black dogs didn't convey the entire picture. Marian's family tree was very helpful in figuring things out. I may still be wrong in the Kai genetics, but at least I feel the most current theory is more reasonable now. :-)
Probably the hardest dog to look at and guess the coat color genetics of would be a white Hokkaido. You can't always tell if the dog would have been brindle, red, sesame, or black underneath that white just by looking at him. Even having a family tree may not help.
Do the whites have colours as puppies and "whiten" during the maturation (like the Shiba Urajiro) or are they white from birth? And how often are there Hokkas in other colours? I have only seen whites yet (I have hardly concentrated on them though)...
Edit: Damn I mixed up Hokkas and Kishus... *sigh*
Are there any really (genetically) black Kais or are there only red's and cream's without any brindle?
Did I understand your theory correctly? The "e"-gene marks the basic colour (EE and Ee for red and ee for cream) and Kbr and ky mark the grade of brindle? (kyky meaning no brindle inherited)
So, Daiichi's colour would be cream then? Do you have an example for a red Kai? Because I'm a little confused about these two phenotypes, since the picture of "Sam" was considered an example for red, but his colour is much lighter than Daiichis...
Allright, good to know you learned that in school too...
In Germany there are a lot of prejudices going on about Americans and American schools and it is good to know that they aren't true.
Ala-chan, in response to the education question... It's a long story, and I'm not just saying that. Short version is that I haven't spent a single day in a classroom. Ever. And as to whether I was 'home schooled' (the logical other option I guess) the answer would also be a no. I didn't grow up in the best of situations, so everything I know is self taught (other than the basics like reading/writing).
Hence I know nothing about genetics. Thanks to the NKF and my interest in dogs I'll now be adding that knowledge to my meager database :P