Look at your Akita Inu or American Akita, and ask yourself if you think that dog lives up to the Akita reputation. Do you? I agree with you brad neither is close to being like the original akita. The modern akitas (both) to me wouldn't be able to do the type of hunting and fighting that the originals did
I was one of the many people that didnt know there are two Akita types until a few years ago. When I first saw a picture of a Japanese type, wow, was all I could think. I thought THOSE dogs are beautiful! The American type resemble mastiff type dogs. Even not being involved with Akitas, I believe there should be a breed split, regardless of a history I am not very familiar with, purely based on looks and personality. There are two types of Cocker Spaniel, and they look more alike than the Akitas do. There are quite a few of these types of splits in the AKC, the Foxhound, hell the Fox Terriers are separated just by fur type, im sure there are a few more examples, but I dont care to think of them. I really dont see why there is a problem with a split. It would give fanciers of either type to really shine in the show ring without competing with a dog it looks nothing alike.
wow. I fully expected you guys to flame me for what I wrote.
So, that leads me to a question, if the "blending" of the Akita breeds in America resulted in:
A) The production of an Akita that was closer to the original "rustic" Akita type.
-or-
The production of a healthier Akita in America (undoing what the AKC's stub book closing did to the breed in the 70s), with a more diverse gene pool, that eventually lead back to a split producing healthier dogs of both types (breeds).
Honestly, I don't see a reason to move back towards the "old days" or the "rustic look". Dog breeds, and dogs, are evolving according to what is desired in society.. which does account partially for the US and Japanese aesthetic differences. Almost no breed today looks really the same as first conception.. While it's generally accepted that Akita were "hunting dogs", this is in actuality not really true. Akita didn't really exist before purposeful breeding.. only Akita-like dogs existed before who were hunters. Besides, unless Akita were being bred with actual working trials, there's no reason to emphasize the hunting/working unless there's a significant and large movement to use the dogs for that purpose.
Like you said, originally they were tough dogs, bred for fighting other dogs. Since this purpose is now functionally dead, there really is no reason to keep producing dogs of that type. Function will always dictate form - and since most Akita of today don't really have a true function besides being pets, they've changed accordingly. Nobody kept the "old" Akita as house pets.. and probably for a good reason (besides generally not keeping dogs in the house).
Plus, most breeders try to breed towards their understanding of the standards, and strive to make each generation a little closer to that standard. That means that all breeders by virtue are changing the breed from their parents, and their parents before them. It's inevitable that all dogs will look different from the same breed years ago in that regard.
But I would support for health purposes, the breeding of the two breeds together, just like I pretty much like the idea of an open stud book for many dog breeds.
And lastly, what is the "Akita reputation"? To me, much of what is their reputation is, is simply a glorified and romanticized notion of a living National Monument.
To me, much of what is their reputation is, is simply a glorified and romanticized notion of a living National Monument.
This was kinda the point I was getting at. IMHO, the Akita is grossly mismarketed and sold under a false pretence. The Akita, as a breed, at one time was a working breed and is now "sold" as such - from their placement in the "working" category in shows, to their "hype" and personality descriptions in books and on the web. What I have come to see is that the Akita of today (JA or AA), from a temperament standpoint, is a very loose interpretation of the breed's description and therefore it's misleading and inaccurate.
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Akita didn't really exist before purposeful breeding.. only Akita-like dogs existed before who were hunters
This logic can be used on every dog breed ever created.
At what point does a dog breed become a breed?
If, for the Akita, that point was when the reconstruction efforts started then most of the info describing the breed and it's history is incorrect and should be re-written to start at the reconstruction. (And while we are at it we might as will make up the history and purpose of the breed. Since, after all, during the reconstruction, the standard and look was pretty much made up.)
I do see yukidomari's points tho, and agree, to an extent. The Akita breed is a house dog these days, and if that is their future then that is fine. I just wish they were not marketed as the amazing, tough, and fearless animals they once were. Now, they are simply a sad shell, an empty example of a powerful working breed.
"I just wish they were not marketed as the amazing, tough, and fearless animals they once were. Now, they are simply a sad shell, an empty example of a powerful working breed."
I think the Akita of today can still be amazing dogs fit for today's society.. JMO, though.
Sorry about the editing the earlier post.. sometimes I think.. and then think some more and go back and fix it. That and I'm having English troubles.
:T
Sure, they can be amazing - I don't mean to imply that they cannot be amazing w/o the working/fighting qualities.
I also want to make sure I'm clear, I am actually not arguing that the Akita should be made back into a sharper dog, I am just simply saying that I feel that they are misrepresented by breeders and enthusiasts as something they are not. The "hype" of the breed is grossly inaccurate.
Our 4 Akita are great companions, and perfect house pets, and if they were marketed in that way they would be living 100% true to their breed - but the Akita is largely NOT marketed as a house pet. If you read about the breed you read things like how they "need a job" and "they get bored" or how they "make great property guards". In my experience, with the Akita I own, and the ones I have met, those statements are misleading at best.
I was wondering, if American breeders were to blend the two types would the breed standard change? Would Americans aim to breed what the rest of the worlds and the country of origins view of an Akita is?Or would it remain the same? And if the standard stayed the same, how would other countries view the blended dogs? Would they accept them as being Akita, or would they forever be viewed as a mix between the two? Other countries differentiate the two types. Would Akita breeders outside the US want to use our dogs in breeding programs or would the dogs and their breeders just be further segregated from the rest of the world? I am sincerely asking and want to know.
The AKC has it's own Akita standard, most of the rest of the world breeds to the FCI standard, which is the standard that the Japanese created during the reconstruction.
Although I'm late to this, I'd like to give my 2 cents.
I agree that the Akita is marketed as something that might not fit the picture anymore. But what breed does fit the picture, the fame they have? How many Ridgebacks are still able to face a lion? Where are the Argentinians that could kill a mountain lion? Or the Great Pyrenees that could stop a bear? They don't exist anymore or are statistically indifferent/unimportant. They are now dogs that have evolved and were "recycled" to match other lifestyles. And that's a good thing.
How many of us hunt with our NihonKen, especially Akita? Looking at the sample on this forum out of over 900 members, I can only think of two that either do hunt, with Kishu, or plan to, with Kai. 200 years ago, hunting was necessary for survival, to day it is a sport/hobby with far less people practicing it, and consequently far less dogs.
So it's natural that the Akita would loose some drive, even if the breed hadn't faced extinction and the consequent recovery.
Even so, I'm going to compare Kuma with the marketing or the description of the breed that got me interested in the breed in the first place.
The hunter - some of you might have seen the video of Kuma reacting to the horses. That was only a fraction of how he reacted to a horse the first time he saw one. So, I'd say the drive is there, but kind of buried deep :-) Maybe with some training it could come out. I say let's try to keep it in.
The great guard dog - He's a decent watchdog. Well we live in an apartment in the 5th floor so nothing much goes on, but he'll bark once and go inspect the door if a strange noise happens in the elevator landing. If he's away from home, like in a hotel, he's much more alert. Also, he always has an eye on us, from a distance.
Rarely barks (the whole "if your Akita barks, beware") - It's very true, I usually say Kuma barks once a week. Sometimes not even that.
The fighter that lead to the creation of the Tosa - Now this is kind of tricky. Kuma has been hugely socialized (and then some) since I was perfectly aware of the potential he had to cause damage on other dogs or people. So I "shoved" as many people and dogs has I could in his face. Adding to that, he's still a kid, so everything is playful. Still, he's showing les and less tolerance to "abuse" from other dogs. In this case I'd say the saying "He will not start anything, but he'll finish most arguments" fits perfectly. The few times Kuma jumped a dog, it was fully deserved and it took him a blink of an eye to put the other dog in its place. I think everyone that has an Akita can agree that they can be surprisingly fast when they're reacting to anything.
Very independent/can handle loneliness better than other dogs - True. He keeps his distance if we're not interacting. He's happy to sleep on the sofa close enough to be close, but no in the way. And he stays alone (he has Nyx, but they don't spend all day playing) for a few hours every day (rarely more than 6) and he's fine with it, he doesn't start whining or driving the neighbours insane.
Adding to that, even from a very young age, he's always been very sure of himself. I remember a huge Rott charging us one day at the vet when he was 2/3 months old, he didn't react to it at all, or the Lakeland that lives close to us that always barked at him like mad, and he couldn't care less, even at 3 months old. It's a kind of "I know what I can do" thing.
So, I'd say all the things Akita are marketed for are there, in Kuma, but under a thick layer of "I can spend all day sleeping on the sofa". And I'm very happy with that! :-)
Many interesting thoughts here! One thing I do agree with is that breeders and people from national akita clubs many times say that the akita is a so sharp and so difficult dog to have. In my opinion it was probably how the dog used to be but now any more. Not the ones I've met here in Sweden.
As many of you said, I don't think any of the JA I've met should manage to hunt for bears and so on. Even though the history is amazing and fun to read about I think the akita of today is far from what it once was.
Akitarise - If I am not mistaken (and I could be ) most of those photos are by the 1920s. Crossbreeding with the Akitas was going on by the mid 1800s. Does that sound about right?
I am new to this forum, and have posted these links elsewhere today, but I am just catching up on some of these threads. Our website www.northlandakitas.com or www.akitahistory.info has been referred to. Since then there are many new articles and pictures.
We are no longer breeding, but have bred 100% American lines, 100% post 1992 Japanese line (AKC and AKIHO registered) and also have worked with various percentages of import and domestic lines.
>> I couldn't agree more with this statement. Look back at the old photos, or even read the "Dog Man" book, the breed didn't look like the Akita Inu of today nor did it look like the AA.<<
I was wondering if anyone has read that book! DOG MAN: AN UNCOMMON LIFE ON A FAR AWAY MOUNTAIN. Amazing Akita book.
This is an interesting thread- an Akita is one of the breeds I'm investigating as a potential "next dog." I do agree with what Leon Leonberger talked about. I think once you get into breeding dogs for show/pet/"domesticity" they do lose a bit of their working edge, I think- especially if you aren't working with them and breeding for working abilities. I used to show Malamutes and my male, Nel, was awful in harness- a few generations back, his great-great-greats were hauling expedition sledges to the South Pole. Then you have a few generations of not working, and his line lost a lot of the edge. He was great backpacking, but hauling... not so much LOL.
I think there are several breeds that look different in the US compared to their home country. The British roughs/smooth collies have a very different look than the Americans, especially head type. And of course the infamous splitting between American-line and German-line German Shepherds.
My current breed is greyhounds, and we face the same challenges between AKC greyhounds and NGA (racing) greyhounds. A few breeders/fanciers straddle the lines but there's a lot of ...um... grinding & gnashing of teeth lol... between the factions.
That last article was written by Oskar's breeder! Yes, he has the mask and the bear head!
Brad, I thought the breed was split most places other than the US! (I guess because it is split in Europe). I'll have to check it out and see where it is split and where it isn't.
Jumping in late here but...as of right now, there are 2 countries in the world where the breed is NOT split...The USA and Canada. If the breed is ever split (fingers crossed that one day we'll get it) Canada will follow suit, but no guarantees.
As an avid supporter of preserving both breeds...I wish that owners and breeders of JA's would band together and start their own stud book. Then present it to AKC as a new breed not a split of the 2 breeds. If accepted by AKC what that would in affect do is...leave all dogs that are currently registered as AA's, regardless of pedigree in the AA gene pool. It would also allow breeders and owners of JA's to limit their own breed to 100% JA. The biggest problem I see is, there are not many breeders in the US breeding true pure JA's. The AKC requires a certain # of dogs with geographic diversity to recognize new breed status. Im not sure what those #'s are currently.
To address what many have said regarding, cockers, fox terriers etc...AKC has 2 different "types" of breed classification...There are breeds, and there are varieties. Let me see if I can make this make sense...
Cockers (ASCOB, Black, and Parti), Collies (Rough & Smooth) Beagles (13" & 15") Fox Terriers (Smooth & Wire) Dachshunds (Wirehaired, Smooth, and Long coat) are varieties. What this means is, you may interbreed the different varieties. Then are then shown based on which variety they fit into. In order to have a variety a breed must have a mutual distinguishing characteristic. There is no mutual distinguishing characteristic between the JA and AA. So they must become 2 different breeds. Interestingly enough, there does not have to be distinguishing characteristics between breeds. As it stands currently, the standards of the Akita and Alaskan Malamute are not mutually exclusive. Sure the standards are different, but without knowing the breeds already, a layman could read the standard of one and place the dog of the other in it. While it may not be a perfect fit, there is nothing to exclude the dogs.
You've got a typo and inserted "Alaskan Malamute" instead of "Japanese Akita." :-)
My understanding is that the AKC no longer allows new varieties? It's been a few years, but the Weimaraner club attempted to split off the long-hair Weim into its own variety, but the AKC said no. Short and long-haired would have been judged in the same ring, which killed the vote to include long-hair weims by the breed club.
So starting a "new breed" may be the only option that the AKC will accept? (Not that I think it all that important to get the JA AKC recognized. AKIHO should suffice...)
I agree that Akiho should suffice ...EXCEPT that I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to have a JA...BUT I show in AKC, I wont have one and show it in AKC, because to me it would be no different than showing my whippets as akitas...They are a different breed...So...WHEN (not if) they are accepted into AKC...I will have one!
Comments
Look at your Akita Inu or American Akita, and ask yourself if you think that dog lives up to the Akita reputation. Do you?
I agree with you brad neither is close to being like the original akita.
The modern akitas (both) to me wouldn't be able to do the type of hunting and fighting that the originals did
So, that leads me to a question, if the "blending" of the Akita breeds in America resulted in:
A) The production of an Akita that was closer to the original "rustic" Akita type.
-or-
Would you support the "blending" of the 2 breeds?
----
Like you said, originally they were tough dogs, bred for fighting other dogs. Since this purpose is now functionally dead, there really is no reason to keep producing dogs of that type. Function will always dictate form - and since most Akita of today don't really have a true function besides being pets, they've changed accordingly. Nobody kept the "old" Akita as house pets.. and probably for a good reason (besides generally not keeping dogs in the house).
Plus, most breeders try to breed towards their understanding of the standards, and strive to make each generation a little closer to that standard. That means that all breeders by virtue are changing the breed from their parents, and their parents before them. It's inevitable that all dogs will look different from the same breed years ago in that regard.
But I would support for health purposes, the breeding of the two breeds together, just like I pretty much like the idea of an open stud book for many dog breeds.
And lastly, what is the "Akita reputation"? To me, much of what is their reputation is, is simply a glorified and romanticized notion of a living National Monument.
This was kinda the point I was getting at. IMHO, the Akita is grossly mismarketed and sold under a false pretence. The Akita, as a breed, at one time was a working breed and is now "sold" as such - from their placement in the "working" category in shows, to their "hype" and personality descriptions in books and on the web. What I have come to see is that the Akita of today (JA or AA), from a temperament standpoint, is a very loose interpretation of the breed's description and therefore it's misleading and inaccurate.
----
Akita didn't really exist before purposeful breeding.. only Akita-like dogs existed before who were hunters
This logic can be used on every dog breed ever created.
At what point does a dog breed become a breed?
If, for the Akita, that point was when the reconstruction efforts started then most of the info describing the breed and it's history is incorrect and should be re-written to start at the reconstruction. (And while we are at it we might as will make up the history and purpose of the breed. Since, after all, during the reconstruction, the standard and look was pretty much made up.)
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(JMO)
----
(Not posting this to offend)
http://bg-bg.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=78080354177&topic=9201
This is the dog from HL akitas "Chance"
http://www.angelfire.com/planet/hlakitas/chance.html
I think the Akita of today can still be amazing dogs fit for today's society.. JMO, though.
Sorry about the editing the earlier post.. sometimes I think.. and then think some more and go back and fix it. That and I'm having English troubles.
:T
I also want to make sure I'm clear, I am actually not arguing that the Akita should be made back into a sharper dog, I am just simply saying that I feel that they are misrepresented by breeders and enthusiasts as something they are not. The "hype" of the breed is grossly inaccurate.
Our 4 Akita are great companions, and perfect house pets, and if they were marketed in that way they would be living 100% true to their breed - but the Akita is largely NOT marketed as a house pet. If you read about the breed you read things like how they "need a job" and "they get bored" or how they "make great property guards". In my experience, with the Akita I own, and the ones I have met, those statements are misleading at best.
----
I am sincerely asking and want to know.
----
I agree that the Akita is marketed as something that might not fit the picture anymore. But what breed does fit the picture, the fame they have? How many Ridgebacks are still able to face a lion? Where are the Argentinians that could kill a mountain lion? Or the Great Pyrenees that could stop a bear?
They don't exist anymore or are statistically indifferent/unimportant. They are now dogs that have evolved and were "recycled" to match other lifestyles. And that's a good thing.
How many of us hunt with our NihonKen, especially Akita? Looking at the sample on this forum out of over 900 members, I can only think of two that either do hunt, with Kishu, or plan to, with Kai. 200 years ago, hunting was necessary for survival, to day it is a sport/hobby with far less people practicing it, and consequently far less dogs.
So it's natural that the Akita would loose some drive, even if the breed hadn't faced extinction and the consequent recovery.
Even so, I'm going to compare Kuma with the marketing or the description of the breed that got me interested in the breed in the first place.
The hunter - some of you might have seen the video of Kuma reacting to the horses. That was only a fraction of how he reacted to a horse the first time he saw one. So, I'd say the drive is there, but kind of buried deep :-) Maybe with some training it could come out. I say let's try to keep it in.
The great guard dog - He's a decent watchdog. Well we live in an apartment in the 5th floor so nothing much goes on, but he'll bark once and go inspect the door if a strange noise happens in the elevator landing. If he's away from home, like in a hotel, he's much more alert. Also, he always has an eye on us, from a distance.
Rarely barks (the whole "if your Akita barks, beware") - It's very true, I usually say Kuma barks once a week. Sometimes not even that.
The fighter that lead to the creation of the Tosa - Now this is kind of tricky. Kuma has been hugely socialized (and then some) since I was perfectly aware of the potential he had to cause damage on other dogs or people. So I "shoved" as many people and dogs has I could in his face. Adding to that, he's still a kid, so everything is playful. Still, he's showing les and less tolerance to "abuse" from other dogs. In this case I'd say the saying "He will not start anything, but he'll finish most arguments" fits perfectly. The few times Kuma jumped a dog, it was fully deserved and it took him a blink of an eye to put the other dog in its place.
I think everyone that has an Akita can agree that they can be surprisingly fast when they're reacting to anything.
Very independent/can handle loneliness better than other dogs - True. He keeps his distance if we're not interacting. He's happy to sleep on the sofa close enough to be close, but no in the way. And he stays alone (he has Nyx, but they don't spend all day playing) for a few hours every day (rarely more than 6) and he's fine with it, he doesn't start whining or driving the neighbours insane.
Adding to that, even from a very young age, he's always been very sure of himself. I remember a huge Rott charging us one day at the vet when he was 2/3 months old, he didn't react to it at all, or the Lakeland that lives close to us that always barked at him like mad, and he couldn't care less, even at 3 months old. It's a kind of "I know what I can do" thing.
So, I'd say all the things Akita are marketed for are there, in Kuma, but under a thick layer of "I can spend all day sleeping on the sofa". And I'm very happy with that! :-)
As many of you said, I don't think any of the JA I've met should manage to hunt for bears and so on. Even though the history is amazing and fun to read about I think the akita of today is far from what it once was.
its got great pix of the old syle matagi dogs and akitas
http://www.balkankinology.net/pricaonica/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=2445&start=60
These are gorgeous akita inus
http://www.balkankinology.net/pricaonica/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=213&start=285
Redwitch akitas have the most beautiful american akitas ive ever seen
http://www.redwitch.co.uk/champions.htm
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http://www.northlandakitas.com/akitahistory/dogroots1.htm
http://www.northlandakitas.com/akitahistory/dogroots2.htm
http://www.northlandakitas.com/akitahistory/dogroots3.htm
http://www.northlandakitas.com/akitahistory/dogroots4.htm
@ brada1878- ur welcome
One article that will help to understand the breed split issue is found here: http://www.northlandakitas.com/update/splitting.htm
Another good one is here: http://www.northlandakitas.com/update/splitting.htm
This past perspective also: http://www.northlandakitas.com/pastpersp.htm
These are photos of AKC Akitas from the original ACA foundation stock of 1974 and were bred prior to the 1992 imports from Japan becoming available: http://www.northlandakitas.com/refference/group8.htm and http://www.northlandakitas.com/refference/group9.htm . These are from the 'Reference Collection' page of the website.
We are no longer breeding, but have bred 100% American lines, 100% post 1992 Japanese line (AKC and AKIHO registered) and also have worked with various percentages of import and domestic lines.
Loren Egland
Sean Nollan
http://www.akita-inu.com/split.htm
I was wondering if anyone has read that book! DOG MAN: AN UNCOMMON LIFE ON A FAR AWAY MOUNTAIN. Amazing Akita book.
This is an interesting thread- an Akita is one of the breeds I'm investigating as a potential "next dog." I do agree with what Leon Leonberger talked about. I think once you get into breeding dogs for show/pet/"domesticity" they do lose a bit of their working edge, I think- especially if you aren't working with them and breeding for working abilities. I used to show Malamutes and my male, Nel, was awful in harness- a few generations back, his great-great-greats were hauling expedition sledges to the South Pole. Then you have a few generations of not working, and his line lost a lot of the edge. He was great backpacking, but hauling... not so much LOL.
I think there are several breeds that look different in the US compared to their home country. The British roughs/smooth collies have a very different look than the Americans, especially head type. And of course the infamous splitting between American-line and German-line German Shepherds.
My current breed is greyhounds, and we face the same challenges between AKC greyhounds and NGA (racing) greyhounds. A few breeders/fanciers straddle the lines but there's a lot of ...um... grinding & gnashing of teeth lol... between the factions.
Jen
Brad, I thought the breed was split most places other than the US! (I guess because it is split in Europe). I'll have to check it out and see where it is split and where it isn't.
As an avid supporter of preserving both breeds...I wish that owners and breeders of JA's would band together and start their own stud book. Then present it to AKC as a new breed not a split of the 2 breeds. If accepted by AKC what that would in affect do is...leave all dogs that are currently registered as AA's, regardless of pedigree in the AA gene pool. It would also allow breeders and owners of JA's to limit their own breed to 100% JA. The biggest problem I see is, there are not many breeders in the US breeding true pure JA's. The AKC requires a certain # of dogs with geographic diversity to recognize new breed status. Im not sure what those #'s are currently.
To address what many have said regarding, cockers, fox terriers etc...AKC has 2 different "types" of breed classification...There are breeds, and there are varieties. Let me see if I can make this make sense...
Cockers (ASCOB, Black, and Parti), Collies (Rough & Smooth) Beagles (13" & 15") Fox Terriers (Smooth & Wire) Dachshunds (Wirehaired, Smooth, and Long coat) are varieties. What this means is, you may interbreed the different varieties. Then are then shown based on which variety they fit into. In order to have a variety a breed must have a mutual distinguishing characteristic. There is no mutual distinguishing characteristic between the JA and AA. So they must become 2 different breeds. Interestingly enough, there does not have to be distinguishing characteristics between breeds. As it stands currently, the standards of the Akita and Alaskan Malamute are not mutually exclusive. Sure the standards are different, but without knowing the breeds already, a layman could read the standard of one and place the dog of the other in it. While it may not be a perfect fit, there is nothing to exclude the dogs.
Hope that all makes sense
Donna
You've got a typo and inserted "Alaskan Malamute" instead of "Japanese Akita." :-)
My understanding is that the AKC no longer allows new varieties? It's been a few years, but the Weimaraner club attempted to split off the long-hair Weim into its own variety, but the AKC said no. Short and long-haired would have been judged in the same ring, which killed the vote to include long-hair weims by the breed club.
So starting a "new breed" may be the only option that the AKC will accept? (Not that I think it all that important to get the JA AKC recognized. AKIHO should suffice...)
I agree that Akiho should suffice ...EXCEPT that I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to have a JA...BUT I show in AKC, I wont have one and show it in AKC, because to me it would be no different than showing my whippets as akitas...They are a different breed...So...WHEN (not if) they are accepted into AKC...I will have one!