I guess for me the question to ask is why show in AKC? What makes it worthwhile?
If it's to evaluate breeding stock, what's to say that the AKC judge is knowledgeable about what is a good JA or not?
If it's to see other breeding stock, it may be that you'll end up being the only one with a JA for quite a while and it'll be a mute point. And anyways, is a show a better venue to see other breeding stock than say visiting the dog at an alternative location?
If it's to socialize and have fun with other show people who have common interests, why worry about placements?
If it's just "showing" and none of the above, then why not show in ARBA? Or maybe even IABCA if they use the JA standard?
Thanks Donna for the clarification about the breed vs. variety, which I have found extremely puzzling. (And now that I understand it, I don't think it's necessarily less puzzling as to why it exists, but at least I understand it now) And it is wierd indeed to think that the breed characteristics of akita and malemute are not mutually exclusive! (But certainly people think Oskar is a malemute sometimes! I don't think they look much alike, but...)
I would guess that a reason for showing in AKC and not another one might simply be a time factor--if you've got a big committment to AKC showing and a lot of dogs showing there, you probable wouldn't have a whole lot of time to show in another venue...
This is a great thread and I love the passion from both sides to me I love Inu and American the same. There is a move in the UK to kill off long haired and AA/INU crosses by some of the boutique breeders. Call them runts, mongrels or tweenie they have Akita DNA so to me they are Akita's.
It was interesting to read the comments as to the origins of the dogs and if they are upto hunting or fighting still. Well my dog has defiantly got the capability to hunt and run for a longtime to chase down prey. He flushes birds out all the time in the woods with no training and the amount of times I have ended up wrestling with him not to chase deer I really don't want to count.
As for fighting we would never allow that but I did have a very unfortunate incident with a rescue dog I was fostering called Kenzo when he was attacked by an American Bulldog who was off lead and for all my size I could not get Kenzo off this dog. Even on the lead with me pulling them apart he was ferocious and his only intent was to destroy the attacker.
Its still in the DNA for these dogs to hunt and deal with situation in a very extreme way they guard and would take a bullet for you. Inu or American they have their roots and DNA in Japan and nobody can take that away from them but personal preference that a different story altogether.
I love my AA and would love an INU in fact I would fill the house with these dogs but I dont think Joy would see it the same way as I do ;-).
The long-coat akita is a disqualifying fault in the akita standards in all nations. They cannot be shown but like you said are Akitas just like the rest. Being a long coat does not mean that you are a tweenie. While I would never show or breed one, I feel that they make great pets. I would not be in favor of people breeding long coat akitas. IMO there are going to be plenty of long coats akitas produced.
as sean says long coats can't be shown as it is a disqualifying fault, i'm not aware of any JA breeder in the uk trying to kill off the long coat. infact its though amongst some breeder that if there was no long coat gene then normal coats would become poorer with the wrong type of texture. i personally don't know enough about genetics to say wether or not this is true. i will say my girls sire as produced long coats and she as a much better coat than my last Ja who sire never produced a longie. i'm not actually sure what you mean by boutique breeder but most reputable breeders would never breed a tweenie, the breeds are split here in the uk so a puppy from such a mating could not be registered so would be considered a cross-breed. thats not to say they aren't lovely dogs, but i see little point in producing mixed lines dogs.
Okay maybe I didn't make myself clear I know of a number of breeder in the UK that want to actively kill off long coated Akita's as they don't make as much money from a dog that cant be shown.
What I mean by boutique breeders are the one that jump on the back of popular demand and produce a fashionable product.
There are a number of breeders however that are 100% behind the breed and want to see the standards kept pure and truly love these dogs Inu or American.
Having seen what happens to Akita's 1st hand when people do it for money I get a little upset when the misinformed talk about killing off certain types of Akita's.
Anyway we are getting a bit off topic here to me they are Dogs 1st and we all love dogs but 2nd they are all part of one of the best breeds in the world an Akita be that Inu, American, long haired or Tweenie.
sorry i don't mean to come across as argumentative but most decent breeders wouldn't be thinking solely about the loss of money when producing a long coat but more the issue of finding them the right home, they are not as easy to place simply due to the fact that most people aren't looking for one. most breeders of AA especially will be lucky to sell 1 or 2 pups to prospective show homes and even then would only sell a puppy with show potential rather than a show puppy as no breeder can guarentee 100% how a puppy will develop and most will sell all puppies regardless of wether they think they are show quality or not for the same amount.
i'd like to think that any breeder worth his salt that is 100% behind either breed wouldn't be actively seeking to produce long coats but rather avoiding doing so. you say you find it upsetting when you hear talk of killing of certain types of akita but its not a type it a genetic fault, would you be so upset if this was a genetic fault that caused health issues and breeders where trying to move away from that? i think not.
what you refer to as a boutique breeder i would refer to as a back yard breeder, where money is the only thing on their mind, i'd doubt these people even put though into wether or not a bitch and dog are a decent match both physically or on paper let alone put thought into wether or not they would produce a long coated puppy or not.
these things are never that black and white really. and people will disagree about these things, as was the case when discussions started over the breed split.
Venus you didn't come over argumentative in anyway :-) and you are correct most breeders are there to keep the line free of disease and adhere to the standards. As I have worked with a number of rescues here I see the fallout with a marked increase in autoimmune disease in these dogs where money is the driver and not the love of the breed. I also know a number of breeders who don't make any money at all but do it for the love of these dogs.
I think that a long hair Akita is a disqualifying fault for the FCI Akita standard and the AKIKYO Akita standard, but I don't see the same for the FCI American Akita standard, the AKC Akita standard, the NIPPO Akita standard, the AKIHO Akita standard, or the UK Akita & Japanese Akita standard.
Most of these standards are on the www.akitahistory.info website.
breeding is something i know NOTHING about and is way too technical for my brain. with that said i know a lot of working dog breeders, breeding for protection work or ring sport competition. for these people it is ALL about temperament and has very little to do with LOOKS. in the show dog world it is exactly the opposite.....they want the "look" that will get titles and increase the value of their future litters. when you take any breed that has developed into a breed to do a working job and lose sight of temperament, you DESTROY the breed. this is a fact with every working breed.....and one reason why the serious dutchy breeders like their dogs to stay "mutty" rather than get recognized as pure so the same downward spiral can continue with them too. i have no clue what is happening in the states regarding NK's but i see most of the comments on this forum are relating to beauty compared to temperament, function and the ability to do what the dog was originally meant for...at least there are members who hunt with their dogs, and i definitely respect and appreciate that. just wish there were more !! unfortunately some of the most highly respected show dog breeders are VERY savvy on the genetics, but it usually tends to be for reasons of how to get a specific coat color or create a new one slow enuff to be accepted by judges and then desired by more breed fans :-( - but one thing for sure - none of the Nihon Ken breeds were originally developed strictly as a family pet companion dog even tho today that is what the majority of them are. in fact family pet dogs in japan is a relatively new "thing" :-) since i am not into AKC/JKC show dogs of any breed i am very biased and don't want to start a show versus working thread - probably been a few on here already and the two camps will never agree. but the facts are there, and as a trainer who usually has to deal with temperament problems over all others, it of course is a side of breeding that i feel strongly about. - breed dogs primarily for how they LOOK and sell them to people who only care about looks and you will end up with a screwed up breed with all sorts of problem behaviors. a good dog regardless of breed should have a balanced temperament with balanced drives at all times. a lot comes from proper socialization and training, but even more comes from the dna they are born with.
I'm probably nitpicking here, but I disagree with one of your observations.
most highly respected show dog breeders are VERY savvy on the genetics, but it usually tends to be for reasons of how to get a specific coat color
Most show-only dog breeders are not savvy on genetics. Ask about in-breeding and they think brother-sister, mother-son, father-daughter, uncle-niece, and other 1-2 generational breeding. In actuality, all linebreeding is in-breeding. All the risks of "in-breeding", ie. all the probabilities of inheriting two deterious genes, is shared by "line-breeding" that exceeds a certain "coefficient of inbreeding."
Show dog breeders have the basic idea that some negative visible traits in a line can be bred out by inbreeding and culling... which is true to some extent... but they completely ignore the stuff they can't see or health test for. Stuff like having diversity in the MHC which is key to fending off immune issues. Allergies, hypothyroidism, etc.
What I hope people will do is look at the mean coefficient of inbreeding for a breed and ask whether the resultant puppy litter will have a COI that is lesser than that mean or at least lesser than the parents. Doesn't mean that breeders need to cross breed, only that they consider matches other than that top winning show dog.
Comments
If it's to evaluate breeding stock, what's to say that the AKC judge is knowledgeable about what is a good JA or not?
If it's to see other breeding stock, it may be that you'll end up being the only one with a JA for quite a while and it'll be a mute point. And anyways, is a show a better venue to see other breeding stock than say visiting the dog at an alternative location?
If it's to socialize and have fun with other show people who have common interests, why worry about placements?
If it's just "showing" and none of the above, then why not show in ARBA? Or maybe even IABCA if they use the JA standard?
I would guess that a reason for showing in AKC and not another one might simply be a time factor--if you've got a big committment to AKC showing and a lot of dogs showing there, you probable wouldn't have a whole lot of time to show in another venue...
And Sean.....you WERE cryptic! But I'm intrigued!
It was interesting to read the comments as to the origins of the dogs and if they are upto hunting or fighting still. Well my dog has defiantly got the capability to hunt and run for a longtime to chase down prey. He flushes birds out all the time in the woods with no training and the amount of times I have ended up wrestling with him not to chase deer I really don't want to count.
As for fighting we would never allow that but I did have a very unfortunate incident with a rescue dog I was fostering called Kenzo when he was attacked by an American Bulldog who was off lead and for all my size I could not get Kenzo off this dog. Even on the lead with me pulling them apart he was ferocious and his only intent was to destroy the attacker.
Its still in the DNA for these dogs to hunt and deal with situation in a very extreme way they guard and would take a bullet for you. Inu or American they have their roots and DNA in Japan and nobody can take that away from them but personal preference that a different story altogether.
I love my AA and would love an INU in fact I would fill the house with these dogs but I dont think Joy would see it the same way as I do ;-).
i'm not actually sure what you mean by boutique breeder but most reputable breeders would never breed a tweenie, the breeds are split here in the uk so a puppy from such a mating could not be registered so would be considered a cross-breed. thats not to say they aren't lovely dogs, but i see little point in producing mixed lines dogs.
What I mean by boutique breeders are the one that jump on the back of popular demand and produce a fashionable product.
There are a number of breeders however that are 100% behind the breed and want to see the standards kept pure and truly love these dogs Inu or American.
Having seen what happens to Akita's 1st hand when people do it for money I get a little upset when the misinformed talk about killing off certain types of Akita's.
Anyway we are getting a bit off topic here to me they are Dogs 1st and we all love dogs but 2nd they are all part of one of the best breeds in the world an Akita be that Inu, American, long haired or Tweenie.
I would fill my house with all of them if I could
i'd like to think that any breeder worth his salt that is 100% behind either breed wouldn't be actively seeking to produce long coats but rather avoiding doing so. you say you find it upsetting when you hear talk of killing of certain types of akita but its not a type it a genetic fault, would you be so upset if this was a genetic fault that caused health issues and breeders where trying to move away from that? i think not.
what you refer to as a boutique breeder i would refer to as a back yard breeder, where money is the only thing on their mind, i'd doubt these people even put though into wether or not a bitch and dog are a decent match both physically or on paper let alone put thought into wether or not they would produce a long coated puppy or not.
these things are never that black and white really. and people will disagree about these things, as was the case when discussions started over the breed split.
Most of these standards are on the www.akitahistory.info website.
unfortunately some of the most highly respected show dog breeders are VERY savvy on the genetics, but it usually tends to be for reasons of how to get a specific coat color or create a new one slow enuff to be accepted by judges and then desired by more breed fans :-(
- but one thing for sure - none of the Nihon Ken breeds were originally developed strictly as a family pet companion dog even tho today that is what the majority of them are. in fact family pet dogs in japan is a relatively new "thing" :-)
since i am not into AKC/JKC show dogs of any breed i am very biased and don't want to start a show versus working thread - probably been a few on here already and the two camps will never agree. but the facts are there, and as a trainer who usually has to deal with temperament problems over all others, it of course is a side of breeding that i feel strongly about.
- breed dogs primarily for how they LOOK and sell them to people who only care about looks and you will end up with a screwed up breed with all sorts of problem behaviors. a good dog regardless of breed should have a balanced temperament with balanced drives at all times. a lot comes from proper socialization and training, but even more comes from the dna they are born with.
most highly respected show dog breeders are VERY savvy on the genetics, but it usually tends to be for reasons of how to get a specific coat color
Most show-only dog breeders are not savvy on genetics. Ask about in-breeding and they think brother-sister, mother-son, father-daughter, uncle-niece, and other 1-2 generational breeding. In actuality, all linebreeding is in-breeding. All the risks of "in-breeding", ie. all the probabilities of inheriting two deterious genes, is shared by "line-breeding" that exceeds a certain "coefficient of inbreeding."
Show dog breeders have the basic idea that some negative visible traits in a line can be bred out by inbreeding and culling... which is true to some extent... but they completely ignore the stuff they can't see or health test for. Stuff like having diversity in the MHC which is key to fending off immune issues. Allergies, hypothyroidism, etc.
What I hope people will do is look at the mean coefficient of inbreeding for a breed and ask whether the resultant puppy litter will have a COI that is lesser than that mean or at least lesser than the parents. Doesn't mean that breeders need to cross breed, only that they consider matches other than that top winning show dog.