Choosing a pup
As posted in my intro, we are looking for a pup, mainly to get our two cats and the pup acquainted with each other. My kids and I have found two breeders who have pups for sale within 3-4 hours from our house. We've done the initial legwork and asked questions and am for the most part, happy with the answers given. But, we are needing some guidance and hope you can help.
One breeder has two females that are 12 weeks old. My son isn't interested in them because they are too old and he prefers a male, because they are larger in size. I would prefer one of these pups because the parents have stronger markings, they look like they have been socialized more, and they are $300 cheaper. Is 12-13 weeks too old to get a pup acquinted with new cats? Do males show more hunting instincts than females? Is one sex easier to train than the other?
The pup my son wants is a 7 week old male (will be ready next week). My main concern with this pup is his mother is very light colored... not exactly white, but a tan color with a white undercoat. I know that white Shibas should not be bred (there are so many on the net!), but she is not a true white. His father is a light red color, not the brilliant red I prefer. The pup has good markings, from what I can tell, and is darker than either parent. He is a sesame color. His sister also has very pretty markings, and imho, looks better with a darker muzzle. I have not read anything about tan and white Shibas. Is the color of the mother something to be concerned about? I don't know if having a litter makes the fur color lighter or if her top coat has shedded due to nursing the pups or if it is just bad lighting.
All four parents of the pups look thin in the photos. But it is probably because the weather is hot here and none of the dog parents have the fluffy undercoat that you see in the colder climates. So it makes it harder for me to judge their coats.
Not sure if it matters, but the older pups are AKC registered with a champion maternal grandmother and the male pup is ACA registered. Thanks!
One breeder has two females that are 12 weeks old. My son isn't interested in them because they are too old and he prefers a male, because they are larger in size. I would prefer one of these pups because the parents have stronger markings, they look like they have been socialized more, and they are $300 cheaper. Is 12-13 weeks too old to get a pup acquinted with new cats? Do males show more hunting instincts than females? Is one sex easier to train than the other?
The pup my son wants is a 7 week old male (will be ready next week). My main concern with this pup is his mother is very light colored... not exactly white, but a tan color with a white undercoat. I know that white Shibas should not be bred (there are so many on the net!), but she is not a true white. His father is a light red color, not the brilliant red I prefer. The pup has good markings, from what I can tell, and is darker than either parent. He is a sesame color. His sister also has very pretty markings, and imho, looks better with a darker muzzle. I have not read anything about tan and white Shibas. Is the color of the mother something to be concerned about? I don't know if having a litter makes the fur color lighter or if her top coat has shedded due to nursing the pups or if it is just bad lighting.
All four parents of the pups look thin in the photos. But it is probably because the weather is hot here and none of the dog parents have the fluffy undercoat that you see in the colder climates. So it makes it harder for me to judge their coats.
Not sure if it matters, but the older pups are AKC registered with a champion maternal grandmother and the male pup is ACA registered. Thanks!
Comments
http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/
Three months is not too old to introduce to cats. I don't think any dog is "too old" to introduce to cats - but that doesn't mean any dog can get along with them. Some dogs have high prey drives, others don't; in that regard, age affects how dangerous a hunter the dog is.
I wouldn't worry too much about the current age when making your decision. After all, they wont be puppies for long! Focus on how the dog will be as an adult, because that's ultimately what you're going to end up with.
Its good to see champions in a pedigree... but as a grandparent or great grandparent, contributes very little. You want to see that the *parents* are good representatives of the breed. Just because a grandparent was a champion doesn't mean the parents are "up to snuff" and able to pass on desirable conformation traits to your future puppy.
It sounds like the younger litter is a bit shady... ACA isn't exactly a reputable registry. Combined with your concerns about the parents' colors, the price difference, and the lack of socialization - smells like backyard breeder to me.
In both cases, you should request written proof of health clearances done on the sire and dam prior to breeding. Eyes, hips, and whatever else is a common health issue for the breed. Do not accept "my vet says they're healthy." They should produce OFA/CERF numbers or you should walk.
She is extremely friendly to our two cats one is old about 16 or maybe 18 years old I really need ask mom she'd remember how long we had him. Our other cat I don't know his age he's more active kitty. Saya likes both cats and sometimes goes bit over board tries to play with the cat play bows and stuff.
The active cat paws at Saya which she dodges and thanks the cat is playing and gets more excited. I tell her to come and she'll come over and calm bit down till the can goes and lays on his side acting frisky..
Saya met the cat in the local pet shop and she acted friendly to her too though she isn't too fond of dogs she walks off so I don't let Saya pester the kitty.
I think Saya's breeder has cats so maybe that's why? I dunno.
A shiba pup will want to play and wrestle with a cat. Is the cat young maybe the cat will eventually bond and play with the dog.
There is a few threads about dogs and cats. It's best to have the litter box and food where the dog can't reach it so the dog doesn't eat either..
I agree go with your instincts a more well socialized pup is better to get. 12 weeks isn't too old.
I'd look around be sure the breeder does health testing and socialize and stuff maybe visit before deciding.
A lot good info on the shiba side on what to look for in a breeder.
I don't think female or male is more prey driven over the other who knows maybe it is, but shiba as a breed is prey driven, but family cats can be fine it's just small critters like hamsters, mice, guinea pigs or rabbits be more of an issue..
http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/8146/shibas-cats/p1
http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/8035/those-who-have-cats-and-dogs-in-the-same-house/p1
http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/9406/introdusing-shiba-puppy-to-your-cats/p1
There is probably tons more on cats and dogs..
@kaijukennels and Saya, thank you for answering some of my concerns about cats. Is there a way to test out prey drive? Both places offered to take back their pups within 30 days for a full refund if the pup showed any sign of illness or did not get along with the cats. Neither of these are big breeders that have websites, and the one with the male is just getting into breeding. The breeder with the females said she was not planning to breed her dogs again for a while since she was going to focus on her kids so she said she could not offer a full replacement (Not that I could do that) if the dog showed any genetic problem when she got older. She did say her female did get the OFA testing done but not her male, sinc he is amost two and this was an oops pregnancy.
My son is 15 and in an animal science academy in school and studying to be a vet. The dog is his birthday present so he has some say-so. He is going to be the one taking care of the tasks associated with the dog, although I will be heavily involved since I am a stay at home mom. My primary concern is how the dog will get along with the cats, so good temperment is a must. We can work through other faults the dog may have, but natural instinct is something we cannot always control. Getting a dog is not an overnight decision for us... he's been asking for over 4 years and I finally said ok. He is very responsible and good with animals and we both know that I will probably be the adopted mom. We are not interested in breeding, and are looking for a pet quality dog. We decided on a Shiba after going to all the shelters and not finding a dog that met our critieria. He wants a jogging and hiking companion. I want a dog that is 40 pounds or less. The dog needed to be smart, a good watchdog, and not too yappy. Shiba fit all areas. And being part Japanese, we felt it would be great to have one in our family.
To clarify on the male pup, he is socialized with people and other dogs (his parents and sister) but not with young kids (which isn't an issue for us). The family raising the females has kids, two cats and another dog, so their pups have been socialized to a bigger variety of living things. Plus they are older. Sorry if it seemed the male pup was not socialized.
I obviously have more learning to do since I did not look into the ACA and AKC. I read briefly on their website but didn't think to google them compared to the AKC, which is where I read up on some interesting stuff. We personally couldn't care about papers but this is something to think about if the parents were from puppy mills. What is the main reason some NK breeders are not registered with the AKC and with other organizations?
Anyone can register a dog with the ACA just by claiming the dog is a certain breed and sending them money. ACA registration is not proof of a purebred dog. Its a tool for backyard breeders and puppy mills (not the same thing IMO) to look legit when they're not. People generally only get ACA registration when their dog is ineligible for registration through a legitimate kennel club - because its parents aren't registered with a (recognized) kennel club, it is a mix, its parents only had ACA registration, etc.
http://www.dogforums.com/first-time-dog-owner/3409-akc-vs-aca.html
When talking about "pet" and "breeding/show" quality, let's reframe the terminology a little to help give you a better understanding of what is actually ment:
Let's say I am looking for a pet Shiba. I want a nice livable temperament, lifetime health, nicely put together dog that looks like the show pictures, but I don't want to breed or show. "Pet quality" right? Dog is spayed or neutered.
Now, let's say I am looking for a Shiba to learn to show with. I want....a nice livable temperament, lifetime health, nicely put together that looks like the show pictures, but I DO want to breed and show so the dog won't be spayed or neutered.
Only big difference in the end should be intact or altered (maybe a mismark or not quite the type the breeder wants to move forward with). Temperaments and health should be equally outstading for the life of the dog. When you buy from a reputable breeder, BOTH show dogs and "pets" need to be healthy, happy, livable pets at the end of the day. So, try not to look at it from a perspective of "I only want a pet, not a show dog". What you are really wanting, if I understand you correctly, is a happy healthy pet that looks and acts like a Shiba is supposed to, and with the people who breed Shibas "just for pets" or who don't show, you are not likely to find that.
http://rufflyspeaking.net/blog/i-dont-want-a-show-dog-i-just-want-a-pet/
Plus I trust that they bred their dogs to the highest physical and emotional standards. I am blessed to have two Kais that are amazing because of them.
Now, I don't know ALL Texas breeders so it's entirely possible there are some out there that do breed ethically and responsibly, but I haven't come across one that I would recommend.
Good luck on your puppy search.
If you find a breeder in a different state can you have a friend, family member or even a forum member that lives in the area of the breeder to go by and meet the puppy and the breeder, see the facility, ask questions, etc? Then if you like what they see you can have the pup shipped to you or make arrangements to pick him/her up.
I know I WOULD do that for someone if they wanted me to. I am in Alabama and I am not aware of any Shiba breeders here but if you find one- I would be happy to go and check it out for you if it is local or if I am passing through that area
This may not be the same as you going yourself but at least you would know the conditions of the facility, if the pups appear healthy and well cared for and many more important factors needed to make a decision when buying/adopting a pup!
Granted, this example may be extreme, but she did not even come from the worst of the worst of the mills. She came from a puppy mill/commerical breeder who actually was relatively humane in her treatment of her dogs, though of course did not health tests or socialization or any of that.
I saw some places in Texas that advertise Shibas online that are mills for sure. You need to be really careful. If you find a good breeder out of state, and can get information about them from someone who knows Shibas (ask on the Shiba side) and perhaps have someone else check out the breeder for you if need be, then you're already in a better place than just getting a dog from a dubious breeder because they are close.
Please check in on the Shiba side and ask your questions there. You'll get more specific Shiba related advice. And please do not rush this purchase and end up buying from a mill.
@sjp051993 how do I PM you? I looked around and clicked but can't seem to figure it out.
@shibamistress that's so sad your pup has had so many problems! I guess we've been fortunate that of all the animals we've adopted, only one has had any kind of serious medical problem. I hope he's better now and stays healthy!
I don't know if my son can wait three years! He'd be in college then! Let's hope we find a dog before then!
I wouldn't mind doing a rescue either, but I'd have to find a special one so my son would be happy with the dog and the dog would have to be good with cats.
You could ask the people competing, probably after they're done in the ring, if they have a website or a waiting list for pups. Or maybe if they have referrals to other people with pups. Some breeders are not in the Gen X or Y and so their preferred method of communication is face-to-face/phone and not web/email/text.
I'll look into local AKC shows too ayk!
Thanks!