Well all of this is just a hypothetical that hasn't totally been clearly defined (we keep getting clarification as the conversation proceeds)...
I'm sort of surprised at how the conversation got stuck on boar hunting given that in the original scenario there are deer. Is this because the starting weapon provided in the scenario is a machete (which seems kind of impractical in a lot of ways)? If that is all you are armed with I would think that one would be even more averse to target boars for a food source.
@souggy - thanks for the fascinating link. It is nice to see someone crunch numbers and estimates rather than the usual vague speculations. It's a great perspective to have. Also I wonder if the size thing is geographical and not just the type of environment. I grew up in NYC and live in a city now in the states now and I would say that anecdotally, most people use roughly the same size definitions as you do. Also interesting points on agricultural vs hunting and gathering societies and the dogs to which they orient.
A friend of mine in Germany once said if you hear a wild boar the first thing you do is climb a tree. Though he also mentioned that the boar there can get quite large (200 kg). I'm assuming that the Japanese/Australian hybrids spoken of by the original poster are significantly smaller.
@ketsuryu - so are there lakes/rivers (and edible fish) and what is the parasite situation in this scenario? Or were you interested in just the hunting part of the scenario? Also I'd be curious to know if one starts with shelter, or if you would have to build/find one. Do you have means of preservation with you (like a supply of salt)?
[edited to add]
I forgot to mention the other questions I had while reading the thread earlier: do you have a whetstone (or other means of keeping the blade honed)? Are there game birds? Are we to assume that there are animals outside of the ones that you mentioned that are typical to this sort of ecosystem?
Well all of this is just a hypothetical that hasn't totally been clearly defined (we keep getting clarification as the conversation proceeds)...
I'm sort of surprised at how the conversation got stuck on boar hunting given that in the original scenario there are deer. Is this because the starting weapon provided in the scenario is a machete (which seems kind of impractical in a lot of ways)? If that is all you are armed with I would think that one would be even more averse to target boars for a food source.
The machete observation I haven't really touched on, because I thought it was a no-brainer to not use your woodcrafting blade on skinning or killing animals?
In many of the woodcraft and bushcraft books, including ones by Col. Townsend Whelen, they often emphasized not using the axe, machete or what so have you on harvesting game or skinning game. They often stated that a separate hunting knife or skinning knife should be dedicated for that purpose to prolong the life of the blade.
In real life, I use a Havalon surgical knife for skinning because I know skin, bone and feather will ruin the blade. From a practical standpoint, it is easier for me to put a new blade on than it is to sharpen it. Actually, I am considering switching to titanium blade so I don't have to dispose of scalpels all the time.
The steel knife I have for gutting birds got dull after only a few days, and I can imagine if that require sharpening to keep the blade sharp for batoning timber as well as cutting game, the knife would not have a very long lifespan.
But even if you look at hunter-gatherer societies, they often use spears or arrows with disposable stone heads in hunting. It would be disastrous to lose a very valuable blade in hunting. The steel knives are reserved for specialized tasks.
I just do not see the point in re-inventing wheel based on agricultural-hunting techniques when knowledgeable wilderness-trekkers and wilderness-hunters already wrote about what work and what doesn't work.
@souggy - do you dress in the field? Do you have any recommendations for books on the subject? I'm interested in reading more, albeit from an intellectual/curiosity standpoint rather than a practical one.
I'm curious about your scalpel choice because from the perspective of someone who has mostly dealt with domesticated meat and fish, only a few tools are needed. Even in a professional kitchen, resharpening was not particularly time or labor intensive, and you are breaking down a large volume of meat/fish over the course of a week and mostly you sharpened about once a week (and used the hone daily for upkeep). On the other hand, in the kitchen you are only dealing with bone and sinew. I imagine that mammal hide is much rougher on blades? I'm disregarding the wood working for the moment.
I'd also be curious to poll the people responding to this thread to see how much and what sort of hunting they do. For old time posters I have some idea but I expect that the experience or lack thereof, probably greatly informs these hypothetical choices we would make. Personally, I'm as lazy/urban as one gets but like seeing how people answer.
As far as books go, no, I don't have any recommendations, My mother mostly taught me how to fillet fish and dress deer. My father wasn't around all that much, and he hated touching raw meat. The only time I ever seen him process game is cutting open a bird-- once.
I live in grizzly-country though, so my family taught me to not to delay-- we grew up with the mantra "better to carry four knives than a sharpening stone"... hence why the Havalon is very popular with local hunters here. They want that meat out of the bush before the bears come around.
I will have to ask my mother since she used to work in the butcher-shop and slaughter-house when she was younger. Maybe domesticated animals are different from wild game. She did both when we were growing up though.
But yes, cutting meat in the kitchen is different from dressing in the field.
I think my kitchen knives only get sharpened like once a year; and it's usually the ones used on bread and vegetables which get that treatment on a weekly basis.
YouTube is a good source for how to field dress instructions. Normally in my pack I keep a small bone saw, a Gerber hatchet for splitting ribs cages, a good skinner, and two multi purpose skinner/cutter for quartering my game.
Lately I been using a more traditional japanese Damascus hunting knife that was hand made by a sword maker. It's a pain to maintain but I can field dress couple deer or pigs without ever sharpening the blade.
@souggy: I used the havalon kit once but the blades tend break pretty easy. I know havalon recently updated their system to keep the blade from breaking. Have you had this issue before?
Well all of this is just a hypothetical that hasn't totally been clearly defined (we keep getting clarification as the conversation proceeds)...
I'm sort of surprised at how the conversation got stuck on boar hunting given that in the original scenario there are deer. Is this because the starting weapon provided in the scenario is a machete (which seems kind of impractical in a lot of ways)? If that is all you are armed with I would think that one would be even more averse to target boars for a food source.
@souggy - thanks for the fascinating link. It is nice to see someone crunch numbers and estimates rather than the usual vague speculations. It's a great perspective to have. Also I wonder if the size thing is geographical and not just the type of environment. I grew up in NYC and live in a city now in the states now and I would say that anecdotally, most people use roughly the same size definitions as you do. Also interesting points on agricultural vs hunting and gathering societies and the dogs to which they orient.
A friend of mine in Germany once said if you hear a wild boar the first thing you do is climb a tree. Though he also mentioned that the boar there can get quite large (200 kg). I'm assuming that the Japanese/Australian hybrids spoken of by the original poster are significantly smaller.
@ketsuryu - so are there lakes/rivers (and edible fish) and what is the parasite situation in this scenario? Or were you interested in just the hunting part of the scenario? Also I'd be curious to know if one starts with shelter, or if you would have to build/find one. Do you have means of preservation with you (like a supply of salt)?
[edited to add]
I forgot to mention the other questions I had while reading the thread earlier: do you have a whetstone (or other means of keeping the blade honed)? Are there game birds? Are we to assume that there are animals outside of the ones that you mentioned that are typical to this sort of ecosystem?
There are some edible fish,but they are at deeper depths.. There are plenty if deer ticks and a few fleas. You have a 4kg bag of salt. You've got to make a shelter. As for the whetstone, no there is none. No game birds. And only the animals I listed. I'm glad you asked.
And p.s. The boar here are around 70-120 pounds. They're dwarfs. There are indeed deer and you can hunt them. In fact, I'd suggest hunting them more often. But just in case of predator/boars it's best to have a good tough catch dog with you. A mid sized dog is the best, preferably with prick ears. (Jindoes and heeler crosses come to mind.)
@Ketsuryu I'm curious why the catch dog should preferably have prick-ears. What advantage does a prick-eard dog have over a drop-eared dog in this regard? Or is that just your personal preference...
@souggy: I used the havalon kit once but the blades tend break pretty easy. I know havalon recently updated their system to keep the blade from breaking. Have you had this issue before?
@shishiinu Mine is about two years old, so I don't know if it predates the update or not. But yes, the scalpels break easily. It's okay, because they are replaceable and quick. That's actually central to their marketing.
But that's kind of why I am looking at Krestel Knives. I kind of feel guilty for the ecological footprint left behind by those Havalons.
Oops - I'm so dumb. I was asking about woodcraft and bushcraft books, not field dressing. I just realized that I forgot to hit enter and totally miscommunicated though I am also curious about dressing. Thanks for the reference @shishiinu.
@souggy - I wasn't thinking about sharpening in the field. That makes a lot more sense and I can see why your set of tools would be totally different. I've only ever had to break down domesticated animals, in a kitchen setting, and relatively small ones at that. I am definitely curious as to what your mother might say as to any potential differences between domesticated and wild animals though.
@ketsuryu - Now I'm sort of curious. My very vague and completely uninformed recollection is that most predators tend to only go after people when provoked, or if there are issues arising from human disruption to the ecosystem. The hypothetical ecosystem you've laid out strikes me as one where the ratio of predator to prey is rather high. Am I completely wrong about how most of these predators function, or are the conditions set forth reflective of some human disruption to an optimally functioning ecosystem and that means that these predators are more likely to attack?
The problem with many of the woodcraft or bushcraft books out there is many of the authors never did long-term survival. So many of the advice given are for short-term survival.
The other thing is the more you read, the more you see the techniques evolve due to legal restraints.
The earlier pioneers of long-term survival were Townend Whelen, Horace Kephart, Bradford Angier, George Washington Sears and E.H. Kreps. But they were fair-weathered bushmen. For cold-weather references, it's best to check out Vilhjalmur Stefanson and Mors Kochanski.
Sorry some of them don't have links. They're not public domain yet.
But as time goes on and hunting laws were enforced, along with fire-bans and the Leave No Trace principle, the books themselves changed. Most of the recent survival books became only proven on private properties and not in the actual wilderness.
Townsend Whelen was truly one of the last people who were able to get away with some of the practices which would be considered illegal today. Modern practices would only live on with a few select Canadians like Kochanski where the wilderness laws are more liberal.
In the era where bushcraft methods were banned on public land, the books become more orientated about long-distance backpacking-- Ryan Jordan, Andrew Skurka and Ray Jardine are the go-to authors. The rest of the other authors in this niche don't have long-term plans on how to survive on their own unsupported.
The classic which all of backpackers refer to is:
The Complete Walker (1968, 1974, 1984)
The 2002 edition of the Complete Walker is not very good...
@violet_in_seville: there's a wide range of predators in NA. Many of the large predators that will eat you without provocation are the larger bears (griz,Browns,polars) and Mr. Lions. There have been reports of wolves and Jaguars stalking people but very rarely do they attack. I have been stalked by a Mt Lion before and it's very scary. Especially at 4am walking to a deer stand.
Where I live in socal, the mt lion population is extremely high to where their numbers have surpassed what the environment can handle. Because of that you end up with a lot of young and old cats that prey on humans because we are so easy for them to catch.
@souggy - thanks for all of the awesome reference info. I find the bit that you have shared really interesting already so I'm looking forward to some new reading.
@souggy, @shishiinu - thanks for the info/feedback on predators. I've spent most of my life in concrete jungles of one form or another so my familiarity with animal behavior is quite minimal. It is definitely interesting to know which predators do stalk and will attack.
The scenario that I was inquiring about was the one mentioned by @shishiinu, where the population numbers have surpassed what the environment can handle and that is why they are attacking people unprovoked. Because otherwise given the predators mentioned in the original scenario, I wasn't sure why one would need a catch dog over a good bay dog.
The term catch dog and bay dog is derived from American hog hunting dogs. The way it usually works is a hunter will have two or three good bay dogs. One of these bay dogs will be a strike dog (the most experienced with a good nose that finds the hog or is able to track the scent). Once the strike dog "strikes" the scent, the hunter releases the bay dogs to round up the hog by "baying" or barking. Once the bay dogs get a hog rounded up, the hunter comes in closer with a leashed catch dog. The catch dog is usually a pitbull, dogo, or bull dog type dog. The hunter will release the catch dog and the catch dog will go in and grab ahold of the hog, giving the other bay dogs a chance to also get in and hold the dog. Once the hog is held down, the hunter will go in with a knife, a gun, or hobbles to restrain the hog to be released in a pen.
One of the big reasons why I like the kishu so much is I can get all three of these dogs in one. My dog taro can find, bay, and will catch. He's a really well all rounded dog.
Just read "Our Vanishing Wildlife". A lot of the lower-class ate songbirds. Hard to imagine an ecosystem which doesn't have bird-- never been in one.
As far as foxes go... I'll leave this up:
Not sure why anyone want to "catch" bobcats seeing a lot of dogs die to cats.
Dogs die to cats? Since when? I've never seen a good of lose to a cat.
@Ketsuryu I'm curious why the catch dog should preferably have prick-ears. What advantage does a prick-eard dog have over a drop-eared dog in this regard? Or is that just your personal preference...
Well to be honest, I have no real preference. However, prick eared dogs have better hearing.
I am guessing you don't have friends in the hunting world...
There are loads of stories of dogs dying to lynxes, bobcats and cougars.
Last winter, a friend of mine lost his dog to a Eurasian lynx. It succumbed to infections after a nasty fight when the cat refused to tree. Dog survived the fight, but the antibiotics didn't work.
And once or twice a year, there's news about how someone's hound or cur got mauled by an old Tom which got fed up with being pursued for hours and decided to stand.
Wish I can find that video of a puma taking out a whole pack of Dogo Argentinos before the hunters released more dogs.
Yes dogs get eaten all the time from lions. We don't have Lynx here and the Bobcats aren't too big but Bobcats can definitely do some damage to a over confident dog. Won't be able to kill a decent size dog on its own but these little cats can scalpel a dog fast.
Oh I see. You're one of those people who believe that cats are a flying ball if razor blades. Well I hate to break it to you, not only is what you said ludicrous, it's almost always the other way around. There are no reliable accounts of a cat doing such things. I'm not inclined to use an old hunters tale as evidence. I've got bobcat predation rates and a good few we're killed by coyotes and dogs. I've found an account of a cougar killed by a wolf. Bobcats don't kill "good" dogs from what I've seen, and cougars aren't samurai swords.
I am guessing you don't have friends in the hunting world...
There are loads of stories of dogs dying to lynxes, bobcats and cougars.
Last winter, a friend of mine lost his dog to a Eurasian lynx. It succumbed to infections after a nasty fight when the cat refused to tree. Dog survived the fight, but the antibiotics didn't work.
And once or twice a year, there's news about how someone's hound or cur got mauled by an old Tom which got fed up with being pursued for hours and decided to stand.
Wish I can find that video of a puma taking out a whole pack of Dogo Argentinos before the hunters released more dogs.
Idk, even domestic cats can pack quite a punch. Should have seen the damage my sister's 10lb fluff ball did to a rottie that wandered into our yard, poor dog needed quite a few stitches and almost lost an eye. I'd hate to see the damage a cougar or bobcat could do to a dog.
@ketsuryu: try doing a Google search on incidents here in Cali. There's been more than a few times where a home owners golden retriever ended up over a fence in the mouth of a cougar. It's actually a pretty big problem here. Little lap dogs end up becoming coyote and bobcat food all the time.
Have you ever been around a dead bobcat or lion? I have taken Bobcats with my old dog Riki and have seen a dead lion (illegal to hunt lions here). I can tell from first hand experience that these cats have very sharp claws and they can definitely cut through flesh and fur with very little effort.
And these are not old tales. I have seen some of these torn up cat-hounds in person. It's not pretty. Hunting cats is a time-honored tradition in British Columbia and Alberta.
People still die from infections inflicted by mere house-cats; or at least their limbs amputated.
Hell, a dog of mine lost both of his eyes to an infection caused by a cat scratch-- nowhere near his eyes. The infection migrated through the bloodstream.
I would easily believe a large cat could take a dog out or cause extensive injuries. I mean, my Kishu - who has hunted boar with @shishiinu - was MESSED UP by my grandmother's 5 pound house cat because she was over-confident.
Of course, at the time, I made the same error in thinking - thinking it was the cat that was injured and gushing blood everywhere; she was lethargic and bloody, but none of the blood was from the cat.
Nami had pretty nasty injuries to her face, stomach, and legs - they healed quickly with antibiotics, but if a 5 pound cat can do that much damage, I have no trouble thinking that a larger animal could take a hunting dog.
It's pretty obvious a mountain lion could kill a dog. I don't know why anyone wouldn't believe hunters experiences, or, frankly, just see the obvious: of course a mountain lion could kill a dog or injure it badly enough that it would die (frankly the same thing if you ask me, though the dog may not die on the spot). Mountain lions can and do kill people, too. Plus, what's with the really rude tone--dismissing someone else's experience and knowledge as ludicrous?
Just like coyotes kill dogs, and not just small ones either.
@Ketsuryu, some of your comments are oddly dismissive. Most of the people responding are speaking from personal experience raising and hunting with these dogs.
And thanks to @akinno's link, I'm thinking some of those smaller terrier breeds (jagdterrier, patterdale) would be efficient with the smaller game on this hypothetical island, including the dwarf pigs! According to that California Catchers guy, the smaller dogs "fly" better when thrown by a boar.
@shishiinu, all this has made me curious about how your Kishu hunt together. Do you have pictures? And where in SoCal do you go? I never think about running into pigs down here (just coyotes) ..should I?!
Comments
I'm sort of surprised at how the conversation got stuck on boar hunting given that in the original scenario there are deer. Is this because the starting weapon provided in the scenario is a machete (which seems kind of impractical in a lot of ways)? If that is all you are armed with I would think that one would be even more averse to target boars for a food source.
@souggy - thanks for the fascinating link. It is nice to see someone crunch numbers and estimates rather than the usual vague speculations. It's a great perspective to have.
Also I wonder if the size thing is geographical and not just the type of environment. I grew up in NYC and live in a city now in the states now and I would say that anecdotally, most people use roughly the same size definitions as you do. Also interesting points on agricultural vs hunting and gathering societies and the dogs to which they orient.
A friend of mine in Germany once said if you hear a wild boar the first thing you do is climb a tree. Though he also mentioned that the boar there can get quite large (200 kg). I'm assuming that the Japanese/Australian hybrids spoken of by the original poster are significantly smaller.
@ketsuryu - so are there lakes/rivers (and edible fish) and what is the parasite situation in this scenario? Or were you interested in just the hunting part of the scenario? Also I'd be curious to know if one starts with shelter, or if you would have to build/find one. Do you have means of preservation with you (like a supply of salt)?
[edited to add]
I forgot to mention the other questions I had while reading the thread earlier: do you have a whetstone (or other means of keeping the blade honed)? Are there game birds? Are we to assume that there are animals outside of the ones that you mentioned that are typical to this sort of ecosystem?
In many of the woodcraft and bushcraft books, including ones by Col. Townsend Whelen, they often emphasized not using the axe, machete or what so have you on harvesting game or skinning game. They often stated that a separate hunting knife or skinning knife should be dedicated for that purpose to prolong the life of the blade.
In real life, I use a Havalon surgical knife for skinning because I know skin, bone and feather will ruin the blade. From a practical standpoint, it is easier for me to put a new blade on than it is to sharpen it. Actually, I am considering switching to titanium blade so I don't have to dispose of scalpels all the time.
The steel knife I have for gutting birds got dull after only a few days, and I can imagine if that require sharpening to keep the blade sharp for batoning timber as well as cutting game, the knife would not have a very long lifespan.
But even if you look at hunter-gatherer societies, they often use spears or arrows with disposable stone heads in hunting. It would be disastrous to lose a very valuable blade in hunting. The steel knives are reserved for specialized tasks.
I just do not see the point in re-inventing wheel based on agricultural-hunting techniques when knowledgeable wilderness-trekkers and wilderness-hunters already wrote about what work and what doesn't work.
I'm curious about your scalpel choice because from the perspective of someone who has mostly dealt with domesticated meat and fish, only a few tools are needed. Even in a professional kitchen, resharpening was not particularly time or labor intensive, and you are breaking down a large volume of meat/fish over the course of a week and mostly you sharpened about once a week (and used the hone daily for upkeep). On the other hand, in the kitchen you are only dealing with bone and sinew. I imagine that mammal hide is much rougher on blades? I'm disregarding the wood working for the moment.
I'd also be curious to poll the people responding to this thread to see how much and what sort of hunting they do. For old time posters I have some idea but I expect that the experience or lack thereof, probably greatly informs these hypothetical choices we would make. Personally, I'm as lazy/urban as one gets but like seeing how people answer.
I live in grizzly-country though, so my family taught me to not to delay-- we grew up with the mantra "better to carry four knives than a sharpening stone"... hence why the Havalon is very popular with local hunters here. They want that meat out of the bush before the bears come around.
I will have to ask my mother since she used to work in the butcher-shop and slaughter-house when she was younger. Maybe domesticated animals are different from wild game. She did both when we were growing up though.
But yes, cutting meat in the kitchen is different from dressing in the field.
I think my kitchen knives only get sharpened like once a year; and it's usually the ones used on bread and vegetables which get that treatment on a weekly basis.
Lately I been using a more traditional japanese Damascus hunting knife that was hand made by a sword maker. It's a pain to maintain but I can field dress couple deer or pigs without ever sharpening the blade.
@souggy: I used the havalon kit once but the blades tend break pretty easy. I know havalon recently updated their system to keep the blade from breaking. Have you had this issue before?
And p.s. The boar here are around 70-120 pounds. They're dwarfs. There are indeed deer and you can hunt them. In fact, I'd suggest hunting them more often. But just in case of predator/boars it's best to have a good tough catch dog with you. A mid sized dog is the best, preferably with prick ears. (Jindoes and heeler crosses come to mind.)
But that's kind of why I am looking at Krestel Knives. I kind of feel guilty for the ecological footprint left behind by those Havalons.
Just read "Our Vanishing Wildlife". A lot of the lower-class ate songbirds.
As far as foxes go... I'll leave this up:
Not sure why anyone want to "catch" bobcats seeing a lot of dogs die to cats.
@souggy - I wasn't thinking about sharpening in the field. That makes a lot more sense and I can see why your set of tools would be totally different. I've only ever had to break down domesticated animals, in a kitchen setting, and relatively small ones at that. I am definitely curious as to what your mother might say as to any potential differences between domesticated and wild animals though.
@ketsuryu - Now I'm sort of curious. My very vague and completely uninformed recollection is that most predators tend to only go after people when provoked, or if there are issues arising from human disruption to the ecosystem. The hypothetical ecosystem you've laid out strikes me as one where the ratio of predator to prey is rather high. Am I completely wrong about how most of these predators function, or are the conditions set forth reflective of some human disruption to an optimally functioning ecosystem and that means that these predators are more likely to attack?
The other thing is the more you read, the more you see the techniques evolve due to legal restraints.
The earlier pioneers of long-term survival were Townend Whelen, Horace Kephart, Bradford Angier, George Washington Sears and E.H. Kreps. But they were fair-weathered bushmen. For cold-weather references, it's best to check out Vilhjalmur Stefanson and Mors Kochanski.
But here are the classics:
- Woodcraft (1900)
- Woodcraft (1919)
- The Book of Camping and Woodcraft (1906)
- Camping and Woodcraft (1916)
- WIlderness Hunting & Wildcraft (1927)
- On Your Own in the Wilderness (1958)
- Northern Bushcraft (1988)
Sorry some of them don't have links. They're not public domain yet.But as time goes on and hunting laws were enforced, along with fire-bans and the Leave No Trace principle, the books themselves changed. Most of the recent survival books became only proven on private properties and not in the actual wilderness.
Townsend Whelen was truly one of the last people who were able to get away with some of the practices which would be considered illegal today. Modern practices would only live on with a few select Canadians like Kochanski where the wilderness laws are more liberal.
In the era where bushcraft methods were banned on public land, the books become more orientated about long-distance backpacking-- Ryan Jordan, Andrew Skurka and Ray Jardine are the go-to authors. The rest of the other authors in this niche don't have long-term plans on how to survive on their own unsupported.
The classic which all of backpackers refer to is:
- The Complete Walker (1968, 1974, 1984)
The 2002 edition of the Complete Walker is not very good...Where I live in socal, the mt lion population is extremely high to where their numbers have surpassed what the environment can handle. Because of that you end up with a lot of young and old cats that prey on humans because we are so easy for them to catch.
Mesopredators can exist in higher population density than alpha predators; and in greater varieties as well.
Just ask the Brits or the Americans how over-populated their coyotes and foxes are.
@souggy, @shishiinu - thanks for the info/feedback on predators. I've spent most of my life in concrete jungles of one form or another so my familiarity with animal behavior is quite minimal. It is definitely interesting to know which predators do stalk and will attack.
The scenario that I was inquiring about was the one mentioned by @shishiinu, where the population numbers have surpassed what the environment can handle and that is why they are attacking people unprovoked. Because otherwise given the predators mentioned in the original scenario, I wasn't sure why one would need a catch dog over a good bay dog.
One of the big reasons why I like the kishu so much is I can get all three of these dogs in one. My dog taro can find, bay, and will catch. He's a really well all rounded dog.
There are loads of stories of dogs dying to lynxes, bobcats and cougars.
Last winter, a friend of mine lost his dog to a Eurasian lynx. It succumbed to infections after a nasty fight when the cat refused to tree. Dog survived the fight, but the antibiotics didn't work.
And once or twice a year, there's news about how someone's hound or cur got mauled by an old Tom which got fed up with being pursued for hours and decided to stand.
Wish I can find that video of a puma taking out a whole pack of Dogo Argentinos before the hunters released more dogs.
There's a saying about predator-aggressive dogs:
"Good dogs don't live long".
Have you ever been around a dead bobcat or lion? I have taken Bobcats with my old dog Riki and have seen a dead lion (illegal to hunt lions here). I can tell from first hand experience that these cats have very sharp claws and they can definitely cut through flesh and fur with very little effort.
And these are not old tales. I have seen some of these torn up cat-hounds in person. It's not pretty. Hunting cats is a time-honored tradition in British Columbia and Alberta.
People still die from infections inflicted by mere house-cats; or at least their limbs amputated.
Hell, a dog of mine lost both of his eyes to an infection caused by a cat scratch-- nowhere near his eyes. The infection migrated through the bloodstream.
Of course, at the time, I made the same error in thinking - thinking it was the cat that was injured and gushing blood everywhere; she was lethargic and bloody, but none of the blood was from the cat.
Nami had pretty nasty injuries to her face, stomach, and legs - they healed quickly with antibiotics, but if a 5 pound cat can do that much damage, I have no trouble thinking that a larger animal could take a hunting dog.
Just like coyotes kill dogs, and not just small ones either.
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Aggressive-Mountain-Lion-Attack-Fontana-248603131.html
And thanks to @akinno's link, I'm thinking some of those smaller terrier breeds (jagdterrier, patterdale) would be efficient with the smaller game on this hypothetical island, including the dwarf pigs! According to that California Catchers guy, the smaller dogs "fly" better when thrown by a boar.
@shishiinu, all this has made me curious about how your Kishu hunt together. Do you have pictures? And where in SoCal do you go? I never think about running into pigs down here (just coyotes) ..should I?!