And here I thought you hated them!?

edited December 2008 in Behavior & Training
There is a great deal I do not know (or understand) about canine behavior, but this one is baffling me...

Hanzo strongly dislikes other dogs, especially near him or in his face. He has begun to tolerate Tsuki next to him on walks but will still snap at her if she gets excited over a leaf or something - even though I never let them actually interact like he and Hachi were briefly able to - he still tries to snap at her from 2 feet away just because she's excited about something.

We have to crate our dogs to allow Hanzo free roam of the house here and there for an hour or so. He has free reign of the entire house except inside the actual crates of Tsuki and Kitsune... and yet, he will lay near them while they are crated.

So we tried something... we had Tsuki in the crate when we noticed him laying very near to her. So the next time, we put Kitsune in there (whom he never tolerates for anything). He laid there again. Facing him. Very near to him! Doesn't snap or bark or acknowledge how close they are.

Now, one of our radiators is right there, but that one isn't turned on during the day, so there isn't any real warmth. The sun doesn't come in the front windows very well either, so he's not laying in sunlight. He has free roam of a 3 bedroom townhouse and chooses to be nearest to another dog when he wants to nap. I'm on the couch snapping photos and he chooses to be near the dogs.

What is up with that? Am I reading too much into it - or do you think he may potentially want to be near another dog?

Proof:
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Any and all insight would be appreciated!

Comments

  • edited December 2008
    or is he taunting his freedom?

    j/k
  • edited November -1
    Hanzo may be a wannabe-alpha? He dislikes the other dogs unless he has control of the environment during their interaction. You said he snaps at them if they get too excited (controlling) they don't acknowledge him as an alpha. So when they are crated and confined, Hanzo may be lying down near them to make himself feel more powerful and showing another sign of dominance? I am outside lording over you while you sleep in your den type deal? Those pics show your dogs ignoring or averting his actions. He may be frustrated because they aren't cooperating with him. Just my guess as I'm trying to fall asleep.

    Jesse
  • edited November -1
    I agree with Jesse.
    I think he is asserting his dominance by laying down next to the crate, but also showing a somewhat dominant "I'm ignoring you" position by facing away. Do the others like, or dislike being in the crate?
    If they don't really like being in their crate, they may be emitting "unhappy" smells and Hanzo is could be saying "I know your there, I know your not happy, and I'm not gonna do anything about it."
    If they don't mind being in the crate, he could be laying there to say "Look, I'm free and your not"
  • edited November -1
    I disagree with all of the above (sorry guys).

    Dog aggression stems from fear and insecurity. Hanzo is likely extra aggressive because being three legged makes him extra vulnerable. So when he is exposed to other dogs who are younger, healthier, and likely stronger he goes into a fear/panic response (thus his reaction to excitement). He likely craves the companionship of other dogs and is lonely. But only feels safe to be near other dogs when they can't hurt him.
  • edited November -1
    Also lying down back turned is a CALMING SIGNAL and in no way an expression of dominance.A sleeping dog is a calm safe dog.
  • edited November -1
    I agree with Jess on this one. I think Hanzo wants to be able to hang with the other dogs, but is not secure enough to be able to handle them in an uncontrolled (at least uncontrolled to him) environment. I think this may have been one of the reasons he could deal with Hachi, but not the other two. Hachi was not a very confident dog, and probably seemed safe to Hanzo. I think the longer he is around Tsuki and Kitsune, the more he will be able to tolerate being around them outside of their crates.
  • edited November -1
    thanks for the responses! Its one of those things where I have a theory and want to make sure that I'm not over analyzing or getting lost in my own thought process.

    The calming signals: Kitsune tolerates the crate, but doesn't like it so he'll whimper for a few minutes then settle into a sleep. Hanzo will go up, yawn then nest like you see in the pics. Kitsune will then yawn and just lay there.
    Tsuki is a very good girl in the crate, goes right in, lays right down. When Hanzo comes over to nest near her, she'll lick her lips, lick her paws a little then yawn and Hanzo does the same. There really isn't any tension felt by his being so near to them.

    I really do think he's lonely - that was my original theory anyway and then I thought "but I thought you hated these guys!". Like right now, the three (tsuki/kitsu/eva) are running around like nuts and really playing hard, Hanzo is up in my bedroom and barks when they go near the door then whimpers and I can hear him jumping on the bed, thrashing my pillows around... playing with himself.
    I just wish there was some way to communicate to Hanzo that this is a safe space. His distrust/dislike/intolerance of the other dogs is truly his only flaw.
  • edited November -1
    Hi,

    I think you need to stop this behavior not by continuing to keep them separated; that is just not fair to anyone.

    I recently saw Victoria Stilwell (she is incredible) cope with this very problem regarding a Lab and a Jack Russell. The Jack was so terrible that these people allowed the behavior to go on for three years. Victoria stepped in and through positive reinforcement was able to have both dogs together within a short time. She also said that the Jack's response was due to his fear and insecurities. It was an amazing show. I am almost certain that it is available online to view ( I wil go look). Here is a link that has a tab that says "watch full episodes" http://animal.discovery.com/tv/its-me-or-dog/index.html

    Here is a link that explains the use of "Positive Reinforcement". http://animal.discovery.com/convergence/its-me-or-the-dog/positive-training/positive-training.html

    It is all up to you from this moment. You have to stop allowing this behavior to continue. Victoria could not stress enough that this behavior, being stress and insecurities, actually will reduce the life expectancy of the dog. Just like us, our bodies create diseases and problems due to exposure to stress. Consider this the perfect time to cope and overcome this once and for all.

    Sending you Biggest Huggs and Positive Reinforcement to you !

    Ron
  • edited November -1
    It is so sad. I am going through similar things with Piggy, she is extra insecure because of her leg, so I can only imagine what poor Hanzo must be feeling without a leg. In the wild he likely would have been killed for having only three legs. So I understand that he must feel very fearful. Kitsu and Tsuki sound like they are effectively trying to communicate that they pose no threat (especially while they are in crate).

    I know what you are saying about wanting to be able to tell him that they are safe. I dream of the day Piglet KNOWS that I will never let another dog hurt her ever (or anything else for that matter).

    Sounds like you are handling it well. Just please steer clear of any dominance theories. Especially with rescue dogs, they can cause SO MUCH DAMAGE to their emotional well being.
  • edited November -1
    hm. I don't know why its unacceptable, given that I do not know his past, his experiences, his trauma and his previous exposure to dogs - but I would be interested in hearing why you think so.
    What I can speculate is how Jessica put it: he's got three legs, he has very little muscle mass [but building!], he's old, he has no real defenses other than his displays of fear and insecurity [as I interpret them] when he is faced with younger, active, healthy dogs. His time with Hachi was brief, they could go face to face because Hachi never made eye contact, always kept her calm and confidence [around other dogs, not people] intact and controlled their interactions herself. They still could not be unleashed in a confined space together though. I actually watched an "its me or the dog" episode recently where VS decided two of the 4 dogs living together would never be able to interact off leash [because of fighting] even though they lived together. Her reasoning was exactly what I've been seeing in Hanzo.

    We can walk hanzo on a leash through the house because our 2 shibas are good at down-stays and do not pose a threat to him when they are calm and still. We use body blocks and positive reinforcement to convey to Tsuki and Kitsune that staying at a distance from Hanzo is the right thing to do. We've been able to have Hanzo (leashed) on the couch with me while the other 2 are loose but as soon as they begin to play anywhere near him he gets upset and visibly stressed. I'm trying to teach him that dogs exhibiting a calm demeanor at a safe but close distance do not always pose a threat. Other times he will be in our large (meant for a basset) crate in the same room as us so he's not in total isolation while we are home and relaxing. They always go on walks together, but either my husband or I will walk ahead or behind the rest with Hanzo.
    My goal while he is here is to create a very safe space for him, so he can fully trust the human hand again [he flinches a great deal when hands are raised like he was hit before] and find life enjoyable indoors and out of his concrete humane society cell. It is also my goal to eliminate any and all possibilities for confrontation between dogs and subsequently injuries caused by confrontations. Hanzo does NOT inhibit his bite when confronted by a dog [whether calmly or rambunctiously] and this paired with his unknown past and insecurities makes his immediate separation from my dogs acceptable. It is beyond my training capacity to try to mold him otherwise, but I would be delighted for his sake if he could interact with them. So for now, when he's laying near their occupied crates, I'm delighted that he is getting the social experience he wants safely.

    My ultimate goal is to rehome him to a home that understands his incapacity at this time in his life to safely accept the presence of other dogs. While ideally since he is a dog and therefore a social creature, interactions with other dogs would be thrilling - for me - but not for him. He's been through so much and I think he'd be equally satisfied with his own people for all interactions. If he were somewhere that didn't require him to be in isolation for hours at a time while not requiring him to be around other dogs, I would be more than happy for him.
  • edited December 2008
    Jen I agree with Jessica on this! I really think he probably is insecure. We really don't know what he has had to deal with in regard to the missing leg and behavior from other dogs prior to your fostering. If he was an only he may not know how to play or have not learned how to play with other dogs. This compounded with Hanzo's injury, he probably is exhibiting mixed behavior and mixed signals. He wants company but really does not know how to deal with dogs that play and considers certain signals by other dogs a threat.

    Victoria Stillwell is great. However, each situation is different and you must weigh what works for Hanzo and the safety of your own dogs etc etc. It's a complicated process re-acclimating dogs that have socialization issues with other animals. What Hanzo needs are sessions with an experienced trainer that has a safe dog (calm well socialized animal) & neutral zone (away from yours/Hanzo's current living environment). Sessions should start on leash while you work Hanzo with focus exercises around the calm dog and the sessions should last only about 15 minutes at a time at most. You work with one safe calm dog and when that is going well you move to introductions with new calm dog around and rotate with the dog he is previously comfortable with seeing, all on leash or leash dragging(if that is possible). Most cases there will be not direct contact with the other dog. Off leash will only be started when there are signals the on leash activities are going as planned with your focus work and his comfort level. This is the tricky part and where an experienced person familiar with low threshold dogs is needed. The fact is there may be only one or two dogs that Hanzo may trust and the rest may be "iffy" or will not work at all. He may be best with another breed of dog, but you won't know that until more work is done with a trainer.

    Avoid dominance theories, it leaves too much room for errors and mistakes that can be devastating to the rehabilitation process.

    Snf
  • edited November -1
    Ron,
    I am going to have to disagree with you, this is a very safe way to get the dogs accustomed to each others presence. None of the dogs are being punished, nor are any showing any signs of anxiety while in crate. In fact they are showing signs of trying to make Hanzo MORE comfortable.
  • edited November -1
    That's the last time I try to type out a response when I'm trying to fall asleep. I wasn't subscribing to a dominance type theory inasmuch as I'm trying to point out he's trying to find his place in your heirarchial system in your household. It seems others have fleshed it out more thoroughly but it sounds like Hanzo does indeed need assistance on how to insert/assert himself into your pack.

    Jesse
  • edited December 2008
    I am sorry Jessica, I said fair not punished, please do not put words where they do not exist. My "assumption" of anxiety was directed towards the aggressor, not the crated dog (I assume the one outside of the crate is the 3-legged one).

    Ron
  • edited November -1
    Nobody said you said punished. However when dealing with multidog households it is not about fairness, it is about overall well being of the pack.

    Patrice, I think that is WONDERFUL advice. I am still trying to find a trainer with a safe dog to work with my Piglet and her social issues.

    Training dogs with socialization issues is so fragile, frustrating, and time consuming. Jen, I hope that you get the joy of seeing your hard work pay off. Selfishly I hope I get the same satisfaction one day too.
  • edited November -1
    Just from looking at the pics and knowing of Hanzo's limitations, his age and leg, I will offer the most basic explanation and say he prefers to sleep near the rest of the pack so he can rest safetly while relying on their senses to alert him should his poorer senses fail him. He looks calm and relaxed and so do the others. I think he is seekign them out, he knows they can't invade his space becasue they are crated, but he it trusting them enough to alert him while he rests. That's my simple little explanation and it requires the least amount of insight so I'm happy with it :)
  • edited November -1
    Lindsay that is a great point!
  • edited November -1
    Occam's razor...I like that explanation Linday.

    Jen, have you tried an x-pen? Like putting Hanzo in a x-pen when you are with the rest of the pack. That will allow him some more interaction because he can move around a bit but still be in his safe place. I think Romi's Ninja was put in a x-pen when he was introduced to dogs at daycare and the proof is in the puddin. :-)
  • edited November -1
    occam's razor! i've heard that expression at least 3 times this month alone!

    We have not tried the xpen yet because we have to fix the flooring on the one we made, but ideally that would be another great way to let them safely be near one another.
  • edited November -1
    An x-pen is a good idea if you don't see barrier aggression or fence fighting. If they are not doing that now I would imagine that it would not occur in the reverse scenario when Hanzo is in the pen. When you have the pen set up try not to leave it in a position where both of your dogs can circle it. Circling sometimes sets dogs off.


    Snf
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