It's Working!

edited February 2009 in Shiba Inu (柴犬)
I simply can't believe the difference the minor change in lifestyle has made in Toru. We went from a week ago, having her pee on the carpet when she needed to go. We intended to crate train her but we were slacking a bit on keeping her caged. Oh well, we were with her and we simply couldn't understand.

I talked at length with a pet trainer about the best and worst techniques she found for training her service dogs(golden retrievers, but it still mostly applies). Her number one most suggested method for house breaking and crate training is, though it hurts us as compassionate owners, lots and lot's of crate time. We suffered through it, and well... it's working!

We've moved her out in the main room out on some tile, and she spend's a pretty big chunk of her day caged. It hurts, but believe me she is not deprived of exercise or cuddle time! Her behavior has changed dramatically, in fact, she's not even edgy about her cage. When we can't watch her, we're working on teaching her that, she can be free but not completely attended, by leashing her to the kitchen table over the tile, and we often find her laying in her open cage.(they're right next to each other).

So, to any new Shiba owners... it works... atleast it did for Ritoru!

Also the other project has been leash training her. we had issues with her pulling, but with a $5 slip/choke collar, and a bit of earnest gentle persuasion, she is simply amazing on a leash, she doesn't pull, she sits when i stop walking, and she most of the time maintains a straight path on my left side.

I love my super smart Shiba!!

my shiba!
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Comments

  • edited November -1
    I would NEVER EVER NEVER use a choke on a dog. Most especially a puppy. The likelihood of doing irreparable damage to the spine or traechia of the puppy is not worth it. Not to mention it does not work as well as an easy walk harness or halty. .nothing will ever top patience and positive reinforcement.
  • edited November -1
    I voted NO. I believe that positive training is the best way to work with your dog.
  • edited November -1
    Toru is quite young, right? I definitely feel the crate has its place in housebreaking and damage prevention training in puppies under a year (at least) and depending on the dog maybe even up to their maturity (1.5-2yrs).

    We tried leash training with a martingale (limited slip) collar but there was still definitely pulling. An easy walk harness was Tsuki's savior during walks.

    What kind of slip/choke collar are you using? You don't mean prong, right?
    I was always under the impression that you should never use slip/choke/prong collars on puppies or small breeds.
  • edited November -1
    What kind of slip/choke collar are you using? You don't mean prong, right?

    God no! a prong collar has no place. We have a very limited choke collar. top it with the fact that there is no pulling involved, it has gotten in her head that, "oh, I go to far, my collar get's tighter, better come back"

    So, maybe I should have emphasized the use behind it, but I"m definitely not using it to choke the dog.

    and she's coming up on 4 month's.
  • edited November -1
    Well, I didn't vote, but I do use a choke collar, on occassion, with my training. But only to refine the movements as I am training for competitive obedience. 99% of the time, the leash is looped and there is no contact, but the choke collar is helpful if the dog begins to slightly forge ahead. Again, used only briefly and lightly.

    Its kind of like saying that use a bit on a horse is cruel. Well in improper hands, it could be, but in knowledgeable hands, it can help to refine the movement.
  • edited November -1
    What you are describing is a martingale not a choke. 4 months is very young to use any collar. A harness is much safer.
  • edited November -1
    Miso and Sake's collars serve one purpose, to hold their tags. For walks they have harnesses.
  • edited November -1
    As far as choke collars go, training method aside, they can be very bad for the dogs physical health. There is a great likelihood of Tracial collapse, especially in smaller dogs, as well as other potential throat issues. Once something goes wrong with the throat, the dog should never wear any sort of collar again at a risk of further injury. Teddy, my sister's schipperke has throat issues due to a really bad case of kennel cough and can only wear a harness.

    With crate training, you don't need to keep them in the crate all the time, they just need to have restricted space. A great crate training supplement is the leash, especially those that can fit around your waist. When housebreaking Tetsu, I only crated him at night and when I couldn't watch him. Other times, he was either leashed to me or to the living room table. Also, if they are in the crate all the time, they don't really learn as much where not to go. They just learn to hold it in, and where they are allowed to go.

    What I mean is if you keep them in the crate, take them outside periodically to relieve themselves, they know that they can pee on the grass. But then one day, you take them out of the crate and play with them in the kitchen. You always play with them in the kitchen, but then they walk off the the living room and poop on the rug. They know the kitchen is a play area, they know that outside is the potty, but they don't know what the living room is. I hope what I'm saying is understandable, as this is what we went through with Tikaani since he was housebroken differently than Tetsu. We used more crating and less leash, so randomly he'll go off to a "new" area of the house and pee.
  • edited November -1
    I appreciate the input on the different collars and harness. I am aware of the risks, but my slip collar hasn't caused any uses, and like Edgewood, I agree with that with proper use, care, and attendance, the risk is very minimal. I don't use a martingale, simply because I didn't even know something to that effect existed until just now.

    Also I'm in a position where all obedience and agility courses at the training facility near here, require a slip collar.
  • edited November -1
    I voted yes, but I would add, that a person who has no experience in training a dog with one: has no business ever putting a slip collar on a dog. Many people don't realize that there are correct and wrong ways to thread a slip collar, and a correct and wrong way for placing it on a dog. Using one also requires technique and knowledge about how much pressure to apply and how to use it effectively without hurting a dog. I'd also note that the smaller spitz breeds are highly susceptible to tracheal distress/collapse associated w/ slip collars and that would definately include Shibas and why I had to train my spitz with a harness, as he would start coughing even with a buckle collar and a little pressure.
  • edited November -1
    I voted no.

    Your Shiba is 4 months old?

    She shouldn't be using those kind of collars at all at this age. :(
    Best bet is to train with a harness.

    Also, dogs should not train in agility until their bones/body are fully developed. You could end up putting strain on joints and harming her. Unless you meant when she is older, but even then. She probably should not be using a slip collar until then.
  • edited February 2009
    Darwin, that entire post I agree with 100%. It definitely takes a controlled and ginger hand to insure there is no injury.

    and tobyshiba, Agility training is definitely down the road. We're just now getting her in to the Puppy Preschool stuff. It's the first class, it's preliminary training for basic stuff sit, stay, lay, fetch etc. Then it's 3 level's of obediance school, then agility school. Not that these aren't thing's I couldn't teach at home, but, this will be great for socializing her, and leading up to the agility training. but even still, for puppy preschool, the class requires for a slip collar.
  • edited February 2009
    Ok let me ask.....are you talking a slip lead (has the collar and lead all in on as a loop) or a choke collar and you attach a separate leash to it?

    I would hesitate training with an instructor that requires a choke collar. Correcting shibas with a choke is not a good idea for health reasons and really not as effective as it seems. Owners think that because they are doing something with their hands and the dog hesitates it is getting the point across rather with this breed you are teaching resistance and the dog actually may begin to pull harder after what seemed like initial success. It becomes a vicious cycle of force. Avoid the risk. Any trainer that is into positive methods will require a buckle collar or martingale collar.

    I am glad to see you have some objectives set out but don't get hung up on them. Some shibas will fetch some won't willingly. It takes a long time for some reliability for stays and long downs. I urge you not to push past the maturity level of the dog for this breed. You have to keep it fun ( 10 or 15 minutes) with play in between since it you can not work repetitively with Shibas for hrs on end like one can do with a lab. Agility should not be started until around 15 months and not without a vet check of the knees and legs.
    The Shiba breed is notorious for having straight stifles and misaligned knees so don't push your dog onto a course or high impact activities without a check first.

    Keep your pups safe and let us know about happenings etc. We love photos : )
    Snf
  • edited November -1
    Correcting shibas with a choke is not a good idea for health reasons and really not as effective as it seems.

    That's the really neat thing so far, I haven't actually had to correct her. She figured it out on her own. and it's just a collar, not a full on leash. I know there's a lot of negative toward a choke collar, but I hope that every single one of you as compassionate pet owners knows that at the first sign of any issue, I'd find an alternative, but so far, I've not had an issue.

    As far as breaking training up, it's most definitely limited to her age level. Right now that fact that she will sit on command amazes me. We're working on other thing's but we expect the results we're getting, and in some respects she's surpassing what I thought capable by a 4 month old dog.
  • edited November -1
    IMHO, Never, ever, ever. I can't imagine putting a choke or slip collar around my neck, why would I do it to my babe? [ It's a bit like a hangman's noose! ]

    Especially on a small dog like the shiba, & a puppy no less....never. ~
  • edited November -1
    I'm with most everyone else. I voted a firm NO. I tried a choke collar on Mika when she was about 6 months old. Mika was a SERIOUS puller and I thought it would help keep her in control. Especially since she's dog aggressive. It was a terrible experience!!! She would just pull and pull and choke herself! I never used one again.
  • edited November -1
    I don't think it's an effective method in the long term with shibas. I clicker trained Akira to loose leash walking which had much better results than leash jerks that my SO tried (grrr).

    I think that with Nihon Ken, you have to build a special relationship so that they listen to you, you cannot effectively force obedience unto them.
  • edited November -1
    Well, I do understand all of your fears of injury. But I hold firm in that I"m lucky because I haven't had to actually use the collar yet, she figured it out.

    On another note, do any of you present your dogs or do competitions?
  • edited February 2009
    AkiraleShiba - thats interesting! I've been desperately trying to clicker train my female to loose leash walk to no avail, our male picked it right up though (but he's never been a puller).

    h4ckluserr - we have just started our male in agility, so far its not so great as he's not phenomenal in a public social setting. My female has her CGC in obedience and our male has gone through basic obedience - other than that, no competitions. I would love to hope that our male will gradually get better in the agility class because he has a natural grace and drive for agility courses!
    *oh, and this fall we hope to start therapy dog certification classes with our female.
  • edited November -1
    It takes time but it's possible with patience. I found the best way was to ask him to look at me when he's pulling and after he pays more attention to the point he can heel perfectly. However sometimes I feel with the clicker that we human think that we are clear but in reality we don't really show what we are expecting. Sometimes you just have to try a different way to teach something with the clicker so that your dog understands what's expected.
  • edited February 2009
    Well, I do understand all of your fears of injury. But I hold firm in that I"m lucky because I haven't had to actually use the collar yet, she figured it out.

    ---Ok so then, it appears you don't need the choke collar then after all. Put a buckle collar or martingale on her and go from there. What's the point of using the armor if you don't need it, you are just weighing down the horse so to speak.

    Snf
  • edited November -1
    You raise a good point StatisNfuzz, and my response is simply thus.

    When she's on the buckle collar, she pulls like there's no tomorrow, she will pull until she's on her hind legs. I can't give a little pull or anything because that'd knock her backwards. But when she's on the slip, she doesn't pull at all, so I actually feel that she's at a greater risk of hurting herself on the buckle since she's putting such stress on herself.
  • edited November -1
    I understand that a lot of you are very passionate about choke collars. I also would not want to see them misused. However, h4cklusserr has explained how they are using it with with a loose leash. I know that you are wishing to help, but it seems to me (IMO) you are trying to convince h4cklusserr and are coming on really strong (again IMO). I think that h4ckluserr has gotten the message. Like anything else, people weigh what they learn on the internet and make use of what they can. They may not always follow your advice; at least h4ckluserr has acknowledged your concerns (better than some)

    On a different note, I have a Shikoku and not a Shiba, but I am practicing for competitive obedience and right now he knows most of the CDX stuff and pretty soon I hope to start competing at the CD level.
  • edited November -1
    Perhaps a better option would be a harness or a Gentle Leader head collar. With the Gentle Leader, if the dog pulls, its head gets turned to the side and it can't pull more.
  • edited February 2009
    "When she's on the buckle collar, she pulls like there's no tomorrow, she will pull until she's on her hind legs. I can't give a little pull or anything because that'd knock her backwards. But when she's on the slip, she doesn't pull at all, so I actually feel that she's at a greater risk of hurting herself on the buckle since she's putting such stress on herself."

    --h4ckluseer, Ok I see what you are saying, she gets it only when its on but does not full get the concept that she is not supposed to pull at all yet. You don't want her flipping over. It usually takes time, each dog is different in how long it will take to get smoothed out. Sometimes it is worth it to try more than one method, like the no pull harness for casual walking and use of the other in class and see how it goes.

    --Edgewood
    These are mere suggestions. Text certainly does not convey all the details in a given context without clarification.
    No one here is twisting anyone's arm. My concern was the pet trainer's point blank declaration of a choke collar right off the bat. I think many of us are pointing out there are all sorts of nifty things out there and optional ways that can make things easier than some may think and still maintain canine motivation for higher level training down the road. When things go wrong with improper trainers/training centers who are advocating lesser desirable methods for training the Shiba breed, it is the Shiba that suffers and many times an owner saddened wishing they could take it (the training) back. Awareness is half the battle in training this breed.


    h4ckluseer- Keep us posted on how it goes and send some photos along as you guys progress.
    Snf
  • edited November -1
    I know everyone had their own way and there's no proven "right" or "wrong" way with training dogs, but I don't use choke chains and I don't see myself ever using one again. I used to use one on Loki (my first dog who has passed on) a long time ago, but I feel that I just wasn't aware of more effective and less aversive training methods. Actually, I'd rather use a prong collar than a choke chain. They look nastier, like some mideval torture device, but they actually apply pressure more evenly, are less likely to cause injury, and in my experience, dogs seem to understand them better. I've put a choke chain and a prong collar on my wrist to test them, and the choke chain was either painful or I could barely feel it, whereas I have to give the prong collar a very powerful jerk before it hurt my hand, although I could feel consistent pressure much easier. I do have a prong collar that I've used a couple of times on Rakka (mainly for pulling and lunging at things - the collar is self-correcting is faster and more consistent than I could ever be), but I think the vast majority of dogs can be trained quite easily without one.

    The worst are "dominant dog collars" like what Ed Frawley from Leerburg uses. The whole concept of just awful to me. The device is intended to choke the dog until it submits, in the words of Ed Frawley because the dog will respect you more if it thinks you can kill it. Sheesh. I'd much rather have my dogs think that the currency around my place is politeness and cooperation rather than who can kill whom. No wonder he doesn't think that anyone can possibly own more than two dogs without them fighting - his dogs have learned that they have to threaten each other's lives to resolve issues.
  • edited November -1
    I guess I will chime in. I voted no. I have shibas. I do competitive Obedience work at the Advanced Novice/Beginner Open level, haven't earned a title yet, and am learning proper handling for the Breed Ring. We also enjoy a little Agility and impromtu Lure coursing. Of course we are by no means perfect (these are shibas).

    I am very pleased to hear of another shiba owner that is taking the time to do training with their kiddo. That's really wonderful and can be very rewarding, especially with positive methods.

    I have several points about using a linked chain choke. The first and last time I put one on Beebe and gave a tug, she screamed and cried and it was terrible. They are also not allowed in Agility rings, ever. I usually only see buckle or rolled leather in the Obedience ring. It's easiest to train with something that you will be using in your performance. Also, what I notice when I see a crowd of succesfully trained dogs and owners working as a team, is that the collar is of little matter at that point, the dog wants to go where the person is because it's fun/rewarding, not because they were forced to. It's really easy to let the leash and collar become a crutch, but these dogs are smart and can learn to think for themselves, so let them learn to heel.

    AKC Obedience Rules and Regs:
    Section 17. Collars. All dogs in the obedience ring must wear a properly
    fitted collar approved by the judge. No special training collars, such
    as electronic collars or prong collars, will be permitted. Nothing may be
    hanging from the dog’s collar.

    AKC Agility Rules and Regs:
    Section 9. Collars. At the handler’s option, dogs may
    run a course with or without a collar. The only collars
    allowed when running a course are flat buckle or rolled
    leather collars, but there shall be no attachments hanging
    or otherwise allowed on the collar.

    My last point, is that my shibas have a terribly intense prey drive. The last thing I want is to have Ike or Beebe snap their neck at the end of a chain as they are tearing off after a squirrel, that's fighting against instinct so for walking, I believe a harness or wide/padded martingale would be safer (and chains tend to slip off). That's my soapbox, don't mean to sound preachy, everyone has their own preferences so what ever works and is safe. Happy training :)
  • edited November -1
    Heidi, some of the training methods used in Shutzhund are downright inhumane. Forcing dumbells into the dogs mouth and then twisting their ears so they spit it out as they yelp, choking them near to death on the pole if they move out of a heel so they are trained to believe the only safe spot is at heel and everything else means death. No wonder so many people believe GSDs and other working Police dogs are crazy breeds, people make them neurotic from fear, give them a good "yank and thank" with a dominant dog collar.

    "Lifting the dog up the way I have explained does not cause any damage to the dog, it simply takes their air away. This is not painful but it really gets the dogs attention...The dog stays there until he passes out. Then he is lowered to the ground and lies there until he regains consciousness. Then we start again. Usually these kind of dogs will only have to be hung 2 or 3 times and they quickly learn that you are a big person - the way they look at it is that you have the power to kill them at any time. This is a big big point in establishing dominance with dogs like this." Ed Frawley

    I can't believe he legally makes money off of doing this to dogs that are supposed to serve in the armed forces in defense of citizens.
  • edited November -1
    I voted yes, but I don't think everyone should use the choke collar. I feel the person on the other end of the lead has to know what they are doing. I never recommend them to my puppy people because I feel most people don't know how to correctly use the choke. If not used properly you end up strangling your dog. If used properly and introduced in a manner that the dog can understand there is no choking involved and you can walk the dog on a loose lead. Once the dog understands what is being asked of it your corrections can be as light as your pinky taking up the slack in the lead, there is no need to yank the collar into a death grip. Shibas being as smart as they are pick up on it very fast. I train some of my show dogs on a choke because in the show ring they want the dogs shown on a loose lead. Show leads are very thin, so if the dog is pulling you I think it is even worse then a wide buckle collar. A dog that pulls on any collar is going to have unnecessary pressure applied to it's trachea. Young puppies I start on a buckle collar because they have too much energy and the attention span of about 3 seconds so can't grasp the concept as fast as an older puppy. Dogs are all unique creatures, so what works for one may not work for another. A hyper dog may not sit still long enough to grasp what you are asking of it and will basically choke itself without you having to give a correction. Some dogs freak out, so in that case I would say no choke collar!
  • edited November -1
    "Lifting the dog up the way I have explained does not cause any damage to the dog, it simply takes their air away. This is not painful but it really gets the dogs attention...The dog stays there until he passes out. Then he is lowered to the ground and lies there until he regains consciousness. Then we start again. Usually these kind of dogs will only have to be hung 2 or 3 times and they quickly learn that you are a big person - the way they look at it is that you have the power to kill them at any time. This is a big big point in establishing dominance with dogs like this." Ed Frawley


    I will weigh in on this one....our first dog, a samoyed, attacked me (I was nine, and he was almost a year old). My parents were of the type, that training a dog is a matter of sit and down with no conception of pack rules, etc. I was down on all fours playing peek a boo and staring Kino in the eyes...he attacked and bit through my mouth. Thus, a trainer was in our house within the week. I participated, at the request of the trainer, in most of Kinos' training in order to establish my authority over him. He was doing pretty good for the first few sessions, but still was displaying overt agression and dominance over me and my mom....I was told to wait in the front of the house (for the rated R exercise) and to my mother's horror, the trainer hung our dog from the deck! Not once, but twice!!! Each time passing out. The trainer basically said verbatim what you listed in the quote...you have to prove to the dog you can takes its life. I could never do that to a dog, and thank the gods above that training (even K9 police traning which I used to do) has come a very long way....Kino turned out to be an incredibly well trained, loveable dog that never again bit another person...the training was over the top, but perhaps, saved his life.
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