It's Working!
I simply can't believe the difference the minor change in lifestyle has made in Toru. We went from a week ago, having her pee on the carpet when she needed to go. We intended to crate train her but we were slacking a bit on keeping her caged. Oh well, we were with her and we simply couldn't understand.
I talked at length with a pet trainer about the best and worst techniques she found for training her service dogs(golden retrievers, but it still mostly applies). Her number one most suggested method for house breaking and crate training is, though it hurts us as compassionate owners, lots and lot's of crate time. We suffered through it, and well... it's working!
We've moved her out in the main room out on some tile, and she spend's a pretty big chunk of her day caged. It hurts, but believe me she is not deprived of exercise or cuddle time! Her behavior has changed dramatically, in fact, she's not even edgy about her cage. When we can't watch her, we're working on teaching her that, she can be free but not completely attended, by leashing her to the kitchen table over the tile, and we often find her laying in her open cage.(they're right next to each other).
So, to any new Shiba owners... it works... atleast it did for Ritoru!
Also the other project has been leash training her. we had issues with her pulling, but with a $5 slip/choke collar, and a bit of earnest gentle persuasion, she is simply amazing on a leash, she doesn't pull, she sits when i stop walking, and she most of the time maintains a straight path on my left side.
I love my super smart Shiba!!
my shiba!
I talked at length with a pet trainer about the best and worst techniques she found for training her service dogs(golden retrievers, but it still mostly applies). Her number one most suggested method for house breaking and crate training is, though it hurts us as compassionate owners, lots and lot's of crate time. We suffered through it, and well... it's working!
We've moved her out in the main room out on some tile, and she spend's a pretty big chunk of her day caged. It hurts, but believe me she is not deprived of exercise or cuddle time! Her behavior has changed dramatically, in fact, she's not even edgy about her cage. When we can't watch her, we're working on teaching her that, she can be free but not completely attended, by leashing her to the kitchen table over the tile, and we often find her laying in her open cage.(they're right next to each other).
So, to any new Shiba owners... it works... atleast it did for Ritoru!
Also the other project has been leash training her. we had issues with her pulling, but with a $5 slip/choke collar, and a bit of earnest gentle persuasion, she is simply amazing on a leash, she doesn't pull, she sits when i stop walking, and she most of the time maintains a straight path on my left side.
I love my super smart Shiba!!
my shiba!
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Comments
We tried leash training with a martingale (limited slip) collar but there was still definitely pulling. An easy walk harness was Tsuki's savior during walks.
What kind of slip/choke collar are you using? You don't mean prong, right?
I was always under the impression that you should never use slip/choke/prong collars on puppies or small breeds.
God no! a prong collar has no place. We have a very limited choke collar. top it with the fact that there is no pulling involved, it has gotten in her head that, "oh, I go to far, my collar get's tighter, better come back"
So, maybe I should have emphasized the use behind it, but I"m definitely not using it to choke the dog.
and she's coming up on 4 month's.
Its kind of like saying that use a bit on a horse is cruel. Well in improper hands, it could be, but in knowledgeable hands, it can help to refine the movement.
With crate training, you don't need to keep them in the crate all the time, they just need to have restricted space. A great crate training supplement is the leash, especially those that can fit around your waist. When housebreaking Tetsu, I only crated him at night and when I couldn't watch him. Other times, he was either leashed to me or to the living room table. Also, if they are in the crate all the time, they don't really learn as much where not to go. They just learn to hold it in, and where they are allowed to go.
What I mean is if you keep them in the crate, take them outside periodically to relieve themselves, they know that they can pee on the grass. But then one day, you take them out of the crate and play with them in the kitchen. You always play with them in the kitchen, but then they walk off the the living room and poop on the rug. They know the kitchen is a play area, they know that outside is the potty, but they don't know what the living room is. I hope what I'm saying is understandable, as this is what we went through with Tikaani since he was housebroken differently than Tetsu. We used more crating and less leash, so randomly he'll go off to a "new" area of the house and pee.
Also I'm in a position where all obedience and agility courses at the training facility near here, require a slip collar.
Your Shiba is 4 months old?
She shouldn't be using those kind of collars at all at this age.
Best bet is to train with a harness.
Also, dogs should not train in agility until their bones/body are fully developed. You could end up putting strain on joints and harming her. Unless you meant when she is older, but even then. She probably should not be using a slip collar until then.
and tobyshiba, Agility training is definitely down the road. We're just now getting her in to the Puppy Preschool stuff. It's the first class, it's preliminary training for basic stuff sit, stay, lay, fetch etc. Then it's 3 level's of obediance school, then agility school. Not that these aren't thing's I couldn't teach at home, but, this will be great for socializing her, and leading up to the agility training. but even still, for puppy preschool, the class requires for a slip collar.
I would hesitate training with an instructor that requires a choke collar. Correcting shibas with a choke is not a good idea for health reasons and really not as effective as it seems. Owners think that because they are doing something with their hands and the dog hesitates it is getting the point across rather with this breed you are teaching resistance and the dog actually may begin to pull harder after what seemed like initial success. It becomes a vicious cycle of force. Avoid the risk. Any trainer that is into positive methods will require a buckle collar or martingale collar.
I am glad to see you have some objectives set out but don't get hung up on them. Some shibas will fetch some won't willingly. It takes a long time for some reliability for stays and long downs. I urge you not to push past the maturity level of the dog for this breed. You have to keep it fun ( 10 or 15 minutes) with play in between since it you can not work repetitively with Shibas for hrs on end like one can do with a lab. Agility should not be started until around 15 months and not without a vet check of the knees and legs.
The Shiba breed is notorious for having straight stifles and misaligned knees so don't push your dog onto a course or high impact activities without a check first.
Keep your pups safe and let us know about happenings etc. We love photos : )
Snf
That's the really neat thing so far, I haven't actually had to correct her. She figured it out on her own. and it's just a collar, not a full on leash. I know there's a lot of negative toward a choke collar, but I hope that every single one of you as compassionate pet owners knows that at the first sign of any issue, I'd find an alternative, but so far, I've not had an issue.
As far as breaking training up, it's most definitely limited to her age level. Right now that fact that she will sit on command amazes me. We're working on other thing's but we expect the results we're getting, and in some respects she's surpassing what I thought capable by a 4 month old dog.
Especially on a small dog like the shiba, & a puppy no less....never. ~
I think that with Nihon Ken, you have to build a special relationship so that they listen to you, you cannot effectively force obedience unto them.
On another note, do any of you present your dogs or do competitions?
h4ckluserr - we have just started our male in agility, so far its not so great as he's not phenomenal in a public social setting. My female has her CGC in obedience and our male has gone through basic obedience - other than that, no competitions. I would love to hope that our male will gradually get better in the agility class because he has a natural grace and drive for agility courses!
*oh, and this fall we hope to start therapy dog certification classes with our female.
---Ok so then, it appears you don't need the choke collar then after all. Put a buckle collar or martingale on her and go from there. What's the point of using the armor if you don't need it, you are just weighing down the horse so to speak.
Snf
When she's on the buckle collar, she pulls like there's no tomorrow, she will pull until she's on her hind legs. I can't give a little pull or anything because that'd knock her backwards. But when she's on the slip, she doesn't pull at all, so I actually feel that she's at a greater risk of hurting herself on the buckle since she's putting such stress on herself.
On a different note, I have a Shikoku and not a Shiba, but I am practicing for competitive obedience and right now he knows most of the CDX stuff and pretty soon I hope to start competing at the CD level.
--h4ckluseer, Ok I see what you are saying, she gets it only when its on but does not full get the concept that she is not supposed to pull at all yet. You don't want her flipping over. It usually takes time, each dog is different in how long it will take to get smoothed out. Sometimes it is worth it to try more than one method, like the no pull harness for casual walking and use of the other in class and see how it goes.
--Edgewood
These are mere suggestions. Text certainly does not convey all the details in a given context without clarification.
No one here is twisting anyone's arm. My concern was the pet trainer's point blank declaration of a choke collar right off the bat. I think many of us are pointing out there are all sorts of nifty things out there and optional ways that can make things easier than some may think and still maintain canine motivation for higher level training down the road. When things go wrong with improper trainers/training centers who are advocating lesser desirable methods for training the Shiba breed, it is the Shiba that suffers and many times an owner saddened wishing they could take it (the training) back. Awareness is half the battle in training this breed.
h4ckluseer- Keep us posted on how it goes and send some photos along as you guys progress.
Snf
The worst are "dominant dog collars" like what Ed Frawley from Leerburg uses. The whole concept of just awful to me. The device is intended to choke the dog until it submits, in the words of Ed Frawley because the dog will respect you more if it thinks you can kill it. Sheesh. I'd much rather have my dogs think that the currency around my place is politeness and cooperation rather than who can kill whom. No wonder he doesn't think that anyone can possibly own more than two dogs without them fighting - his dogs have learned that they have to threaten each other's lives to resolve issues.
I am very pleased to hear of another shiba owner that is taking the time to do training with their kiddo. That's really wonderful and can be very rewarding, especially with positive methods.
I have several points about using a linked chain choke. The first and last time I put one on Beebe and gave a tug, she screamed and cried and it was terrible. They are also not allowed in Agility rings, ever. I usually only see buckle or rolled leather in the Obedience ring. It's easiest to train with something that you will be using in your performance. Also, what I notice when I see a crowd of succesfully trained dogs and owners working as a team, is that the collar is of little matter at that point, the dog wants to go where the person is because it's fun/rewarding, not because they were forced to. It's really easy to let the leash and collar become a crutch, but these dogs are smart and can learn to think for themselves, so let them learn to heel.
AKC Obedience Rules and Regs:
Section 17. Collars. All dogs in the obedience ring must wear a properly
fitted collar approved by the judge. No special training collars, such
as electronic collars or prong collars, will be permitted. Nothing may be
hanging from the dog’s collar.
AKC Agility Rules and Regs:
Section 9. Collars. At the handler’s option, dogs may
run a course with or without a collar. The only collars
allowed when running a course are flat buckle or rolled
leather collars, but there shall be no attachments hanging
or otherwise allowed on the collar.
My last point, is that my shibas have a terribly intense prey drive. The last thing I want is to have Ike or Beebe snap their neck at the end of a chain as they are tearing off after a squirrel, that's fighting against instinct so for walking, I believe a harness or wide/padded martingale would be safer (and chains tend to slip off). That's my soapbox, don't mean to sound preachy, everyone has their own preferences so what ever works and is safe. Happy training :)
"Lifting the dog up the way I have explained does not cause any damage to the dog, it simply takes their air away. This is not painful but it really gets the dogs attention...The dog stays there until he passes out. Then he is lowered to the ground and lies there until he regains consciousness. Then we start again. Usually these kind of dogs will only have to be hung 2 or 3 times and they quickly learn that you are a big person - the way they look at it is that you have the power to kill them at any time. This is a big big point in establishing dominance with dogs like this." Ed Frawley
I can't believe he legally makes money off of doing this to dogs that are supposed to serve in the armed forces in defense of citizens.
I will weigh in on this one....our first dog, a samoyed, attacked me (I was nine, and he was almost a year old). My parents were of the type, that training a dog is a matter of sit and down with no conception of pack rules, etc. I was down on all fours playing peek a boo and staring Kino in the eyes...he attacked and bit through my mouth. Thus, a trainer was in our house within the week. I participated, at the request of the trainer, in most of Kinos' training in order to establish my authority over him. He was doing pretty good for the first few sessions, but still was displaying overt agression and dominance over me and my mom....I was told to wait in the front of the house (for the rated R exercise) and to my mother's horror, the trainer hung our dog from the deck! Not once, but twice!!! Each time passing out. The trainer basically said verbatim what you listed in the quote...you have to prove to the dog you can takes its life. I could never do that to a dog, and thank the gods above that training (even K9 police traning which I used to do) has come a very long way....Kino turned out to be an incredibly well trained, loveable dog that never again bit another person...the training was over the top, but perhaps, saved his life.