Predatory Drift

We have seen this behavior before at dogs parks and ect. It's something to think about - this could happen to your Shiba at a dog park. Take note...

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Taken from blogs.dogtime.com

What is Predatory Drift? by DogTime blogger Kelley Filson

Predatory Drift is a sudden, and drastic change in a dog's demeanor that is characterized by behaviors associated with hunting small prey. The term is most often used to describe a medium to large dog who has suddenly and uncharacteristically targeted a smaller dog as prey (dinner). Predatory Drift is NOT Aggression, but it can mean injury or death for small dogs.

Predatory Drift happens when the larger dog's instinct to hunt are triggered.
These instincts can be triggered when play escalates or gets too much like the real thing (an out of control chase game). It can happen when a small dog gets scared or injured and squeals or wriggles in a way that makes them look like prey (dinner), Predatory Drift can happen just because the size difference says, "You are comparatively bite-sized, or move like something that is bite-sized, and I am a canine predator."

The most alarming fact about Predatory Drift is that it can happen even with well-behaved, well-socialized, playful dogs who play well and often with no aggression, and no fights.

Dogs who are triggered into predatory drift, may or may not have ever been in a dog fight, and may or may not be generally well-behaved and obedient. There is NO protection against predatory drift. It is not a good dog/bad dog problem.
Predatory Drift is not about how brave, strong, feisty, or fearless the small dog acts. Predatory Drift is not about how well your medium or large, or extra large dog plays, listens to you, or how many times they have met, played with or been around a small dog.

Predatory Drift can even happen between two dogs that know each other well and have lived, played, and or known each other for years. In the right situation, a sudden shift happens and the predatory sequence (like dominoes falling) is triggered and completed with lightening fast speed.

While it is not a problem seen every day, all it takes is the slightest trigger -an injury, a fight, a response to something startling or scary. Predatory Drift is a SIZE MATTER! It usually involves a grab and shake, which instantly breaks the small dog's neck. There is no time to react. This in not a fight, it does not escalate.

There is a trigger and then it is over.

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Comments

  • edited November -1
    My wife has a co-worker whose Cocker was a victim of this. I'd never heard the term before but it applies perfectly. The coworker and dog were on their normal walk, going past a house they always go past. The black lab that lives there was outside with the owners as usual, the dog had never paid them any mind at all. However this time the black lab took off straight for the Cocker, grabbed a hold of her, and thrashed her good, she almost died. The black lab had never gone after any other dog (or humans), in fact those two had played together before.

    The owners of the black lab ended up putting him down because they didn't feel they could trust him anymore around their children. Sad story all the way around.
  • edited April 2009
    Wow - that is really scary! But thank you for posting. It's good to know stuff like this.

    edit: Brandon, that is a very sad story :(
  • edited November -1
    Someone was telling me about something similar, about a lab who lived with a chihuahua for over 4 years, then one day the chi ran under the lab, he must have gotten this predatory drift, grabbed it, shook it and broke its neck.

    Although, I've seen my shibas hold their own with bigger dogs, though none the size of luytiy and the like... you should watch yours around your HUGE dogs!
  • edited November -1
    This happened with an outdoor cat that I had and my husky. Previously the cat had lounged in the dog pen with no reaction. The cat spotted a bird, took off running, my husky caught the cat and killed it. It took a lot of persuasive arguing to keep my father from having my dog put down. He never killed another cat even though several entered his pen. As long as they were chill, he was.
  • edited November -1
    I have been thinking about this. And this is such an important article. I am so glad Brad posted this. It is important for small dog and cat owners. But it is also very important for those of us with larger dogs, and/or shibas/shikas and smaller animals. I know I can FEEL when Miko or Piglets prey drive is elevated. Just yesterday I was calling Piglet "Princess Prey Drive" because I could see she was in huntress mode. I made a point of limiting her play with Miko, and her activity with the cats. Same with Miko when she is elevated.

    If you have animals with considerable size varience, pay attention to the big ones. There are days that you should avoid dog parks, or play situations with the smaller guys. It is imperative to everyone's well being.
  • edited November -1
    We're keenly aware of this w/ Kahlo and our cats. For an Akita, she is being INCREDIBLY good in giving the cats a wide space and the cats likewise are also giving her space...but when they swipe at her and run away, she'll take off...I've been able to keep her under voice control and a can filled with coins also has worked to avert her attention, but she definately has a prey streak in her and is the number one reason we don't allow her and the cats to be in the house alone together.

    Introducing a shiba puppy will be a whole new level and for that we'll be bringing in a professional dog trainer.....although, with Predatory Drift, I've seen dogs who cannot, no matter the amount of training, shake it....we had a husky who truly believed that cats were nothing more than breakfast, lunch and dinner....we had a trainer with 35 years experience throw her hands up...she was one of the best in our area and not even she could get the husky to stop chasing and attacking cats.
  • edited November -1
    I can't help but reiterate Jessica's point, "There are days that you should avoid dog parks..." If you ever go to the dog park, keep an eye on the chases. While your shiba (if being chased) is having a grand ole time, they may not realize that the dogs chasing them have turned it into a predatory chase. I've seen Shibas rolled because the larger dog giving chase, clipped their hind legs made them trip and roll over themselves, much like predatory big cats do to prey.

    Jesse
  • edited November -1
    We're fortunate enough to have a small dog section in our dog park - for breeds under 20lbs. I did (and still do) worry about Loki and Belle sometimes, but it's mostly because she will correct him for getting in her space and he doesn't back down. So far it's only happened twice and verbal correction was all that was needed (for both of them), but I know what he 'could' do if things got out of control.
  • edited November -1
    So Brad, with so many dogs what are the precautions you take?

    This is one of the reasons we're reevaluating our choice of dog breeds. We already have the felines and lagamorph to worry about.
  • edited November -1
    That's good to think about. I notice that Beebe allows herself to be tripped and rolled quite often, which triggers more chasing behavior (she'll do this frequently with Ike, too, even though she can out run him). She appears to enjoy being "caught", but I can see how this may trigger prey drive in a bigger dog. I need to be more careful, I realize.
  • edited November -1
    I tend to avoid the dog park when there are strange dogs in it. Usually, I just take Lynx and Kei during hours when NOBODY is there. Or I might meet up with a friend whose dog I know.

    It's important that you know your dog and his/her reaction to other dogs. As well as the other dog's reaction to other dogs in any and every possible situation.

    You need to be able to predict any possible shift in the dog and squash it immediately. The chasing game is so exciting sometimes dogs just get "caught up" in the moment (especially if they've been stuck at home all day and have extra energy to burn). The dog park can be a very dangerous place. All the dog parks I've been to have a "small dog (under 18 inches)" and "large dog (over 18 inches)" section.

    My experience with dogs has taught me that you CAN prevent things from occuring. It may require you to do so a couple or few steps in advanced so that you don't put your dog or another dog in this situation. By understanding dog behavior and the individual dog(s) in question...you can always prevent things from happening. It's the reacting to them quickly timespan during that split-second that we need to improve on (if you're 1 second away from a possible senario).

    If either of my dogs have a high level of anxiety, they have to be worked. Nobody gets to play with anyone until that level of anxiety has dropped. Then they can play together to burn off their remaining energy. Too high of an anxiety level lead can lead to a higher prey drive level. It's just a great preventative, ya know...with a multi-animal household you can NEVER be TOO SAFE!
  • edited November -1
    Two-Shake Dogs...

    Brad and others
    In your opinion, does this term 'predatory drift' apply only to big dog vs. little dog, or does it apply to ALL potential prey? The author discusses only small dogs. I wouldn't really consider cats as part of this...

    Yes, many dog parks have a large dog and a small dog section, though sometimes the folks with small dogs don't use the designation. I don't frequent dog parks very often but there used to be one close to our home in Maryland so I could easily go during off-hours. The large dog section was about 5 acres fenced, and it was 'L' shaped. At the time, only Tuli and Guska were living with me. There were no other cars in the parking section. They sat and I removed their leashes and Guska took off like a rocket! I jogged over so I could see around the corner of the 'L' and there - along the far end was a YORKIE! NOT in the small dog section. I was panicked. I knew there was no way I could get there fast enough. The little Yorkie barked once and stood still, and Guska screeched to halt in front of him. Oh, it's a DOG! He sniffed it and trotted away. I was extremely relieved. A cat wouldn't have had a chance unless it found a tree...
  • edited November -1
    I would consider any smaller animal that lived with the dog part of this. When we moved to a bigger house, Piglet (who had never bothered the cats) began attacking them. We deduced that it was because the cats had more room to run and the shift in their behavior aroused Piglets prey drive with them.
  • edited November -1
    I too, did not realize there was a term for this. Having kitties and Akita, I am very aware of their interaction. Now that we live in a smaller space (2000sf on three floors), it's less of a concern. At the loft (3000 sf on one floor), I worried greatly about the dogs chasing the cats. Of course, the cats are so much faster, but there had been times when the kitties were cornered. Those were pretty scary moments for me.
  • edited November -1
    For us, it's simple...

    Unless we are standing out there with the dogs we don't allow our smaller dogs (Maui & Kaia - sometimes Loa - and any puppies) to play with the larger dogs. Our rough "cut off" is 45lb, dogs below that weight are segregated from the others into the smaller area(s) (like the one just outside our back door - 1/2 acre). That's why we have such an elaborate fence system.

    When we are out in the yard with the dogs it's not as much of an issue as our presence drastically effects the dog's behavior.

    At home, it's all management. That's all it comes down to, properly managing the dogs. All our dogs generally get along, but we know some are more quarrelsome than others, so they are kept separate unless we are around. Predatory Drift is just one of MANY things we have to worry about here (like guarding agitation, different maturity levels, sexes, etc). Our fence system is just one tool we use to keep the peace, along with RAW bones, walks, time-out pens, crates, and others.

    My concern is more with the dogs parks, and not so much our situation. At home, it's management, at a dog park it's a free-for-all with little to no management in place. There are to many factors that makes the situation too volatile to actually have any real control over the park or the dogs (or the people).

    Also, it's not the dogs I worry about, it's the people. Like Sarah pointed out, it just takes one person who thinks their small dog does well in the big dog area... Add to that breeds like the REL (Sarah's dogs), Shikoku, Akita, or even Shiba - all breeds with VERY HIGH prey drives - and you have too volatile of a situation to really consider it "safe"; IMHO.

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    I think this probably applies to any size dog, but I think the real concern is with the large size differences. For example, I know Ahi has had this type of reaction w/ Maui. In the past she has ignited into her prey drive mode and chases him down - and been very forceful and aggressive with him. But in that case Maui is such a tenacious little dog, and they are close enough in size, it ends in a stern correction / argument. We keep them separated and have for many years now tho.

    Now, if that was Luytiy and Maui, or Luytiy and Ahi, or Lani and Maui, then it could end very badly as their size difference is so large. I have seen Ahi even switch into prey mode toward Luytiy... if Luytiy became very reactive in that situation toward Ahi he could easily kill her.

    So, I don't think it has to be a large dog chasing a small dog... but the large dog is who you need to worry about when it comes to doing the most damage.

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  • edited November -1
    very interesting post....thanks for the information
  • edited November -1
    We haven't had any issues with this so far, even with Kuma being 8/9 times bigger than Nyx. If anything, she might prey on him :-P

    Now seriously, sometimes Kuma gets rough on her, but they're only playing. She gets rough on him too. Of course our situation isn't a usual one. They're the same age, have been with us for almost exactly the same time (6 days apart) and were raised playing among themselves and with us.
    I won't say it's impossible to happen, of course.

    I could see it becoming much more of an issue at a dog park (if we had one here), with loads of dogs running free (and knowing the general mentality of people around here). I agree it doesn't even have to be a size thing, even because our dogs were bred (and still keep a lot of that instinct) to hunt large game.
  • edited November -1
    I didn't know there was a term for this, but I have definitely experienced this with Rakka. She gets really riled up when Skella barks in a high-pitch. Skella sometimes yips when she's startled or hurt, and Rakka's hackles raise and she charges Skella, who gets scared and yips more, and it goes on. Skella is learning to just hold still and not be interesting when Rakka charges her and Rakka is learning to divert her energy somewhere else, but I could never let them just run around outside alone together. Skella knows that, too, and she won't play outside if Rakka's outside and I'm not, she'll just sit on the deck. Rakka really likes squeaky toys, too, so I guess it's something about the squeaking.
  • edited November -1
    Just read this story and remembered this thread:
    http://www.ketv.com/news/15623117/detail.html
  • edited November -1
    Today we had a guy with his 10 week old rat terrier mix puppy in the large dog side at the dog park...
  • edited November -1
    Jen - That's a perfect example! Good find!

    LJ - not smart, huh?

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  • edited November -1
    I feel really sad for the owner of the retriever/shepherd. They were on the right side of the park, the 4lb puppy shouldn't be have been there. While it is awful that it happened to the puppy. If there is a small dog side, and your dog is 4 freaking pounds he should be with the small dogs.
    I hope that they have a behaviorist say something.
    While it is awful that the dog died. The owner of the larger dog should not be having charges brought against her.
  • edited November -1
    I totally agree with you Jessica. I think it's ridiculous they would charge that owner with anything.
  • edited November -1
    A Pomeranian puppy can look just like a fluffy bunny, so I wouldn't be surprised if a dog went after it. And that shepherd mix is probably either going to be put down or marked off as a dangerous animal (giving it and the owners all these limitations) because people are stupid enough to put a "rabbit" in with the big dogs.
  • edited November -1
    I thought a lot about this thread last night (when I couldn't sleep due to high winds). I started thinking about it because my mind drifted off thinking about wolves, Fox, and Coyote.

    I had a thought about Sarah's question regarding size...

    Foxes and Coyote (more foxes than Coyote), hunt small game and so they have no need for a "pack". Wolves need a pack because they hunt large game that can't really be taken down by a single Wolf.

    Most dogs seem to be "pack" oriented, like the wolf, and most (hunting breeds) were bred to hunt larger game w/ the a human. So this leads me to believe that the majority of dogs have a higher drive toward larger game than smaller game (why they chase cars - but not many shiba chase cars - they were small game hunters - there is exceptions to every rule tho).

    In our dogs, I have noticed that Loa and the Shiba seem more oriented toward smaller game - they chase lizards and small birds - while Ahi, Kona, and our Akita seem to be driven to chase larger game (freaking out at the sight of a horse, for example).

    So, if you consider that, then maybe a group of larger dogs chasing larger dogs is as much a concern (at a dogs park or whatever) as a medium sized dog chasing a small dog.

    Also, this helps explain why, in our dogs, Maui will start running, Loa will give chase, then Ahi or Kona will chase Loa, and then all the Akita will chase them. The Akita will not chase Maui on his own (usually), but Ahi and Kona will chase either Maui or the Akita, and sometimes even the CO.

    Anyway, my point is, in a group of random dogs, it seems maybe size may not play as much of a role as breed does. I think a smaller dog (obviously) is more likely to be hurt by a larger dog if this type of thing happened, but I am not sure people with medium sized dogs should feel they have no threat. What happens if the friendly Wolfhound switches to prey mode - your husky/Shikoku/Shepard is in for it... probably not so much a Shiba tho.

    Just a thought.

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  • edited November -1
    Mihoshi (Akita-Inu) has been highly prey driven from day one. Right away she proved and exceptional mouser. She has always gotten low and stalked birds from the yard. She displayed this from the second I brought her home. Very high drive.
  • edited November -1
    I think it's super cute when Lynx goes into "stalk mode". I have yet to see the Shikoku truely do this, they just run after things like the goofy canines they are. In Lynx it's a very slow and pronouced movement. I need totally need to get a video, but she rarely ever does this.
  • edited May 2009
    Like this:





    Watch Blue at about 00:35.

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  • edited November -1
    Off topic, but holy moley that was adorable! Also Loa plays so similarly to Miko.
  • edited November -1
    I know, that's one of the cutest videos I have. This video is of Loa and Blue's first interaction, you can tell he is a little unsure at first. You can also tell Loa has no idea what Blue is doing when he goes into puppy freak-out. I also love Loa's tail in that vid.
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