Nihonken Temperament
The Akita thread got me thinking about the Nihonken and their temperaments. Actually, I have been thinking about the temperament of the rarer Nihonken for a while, but the Akita thread just kinda brought it back to the forefront of my mind.
All of the Nihonken, at some point in history, were hunting dogs. Some of them hunted game that required a huge amount of courage, confidence, and tenacity.
The medium sized Nihonken, specifically, have a lot of similarities to a few other medium sized hunting breeds, like the Russo-European Laika, Karelian Bear Dog, Norwegian Elkhound, West Siberian Laika, and even the Catahoula Leopard Dog. Many of these breeds are consider serious working breeds and have been selected for their temperament and not as much for looks.
My question for all of you is this: Where would YOU like to see the temperament of the Nihonken go?
Would you like the temperament of the Nihonken to move back toward it's origin?
Would you like the temperament of the Nihonken to move more toward a softer, less "working type", temperament type?
Do you see some other preferred tempment for the Nihonken?
Do you feel the breeds are true to their "type" as far as temperament goes?
I'm curious how all of you feel. I would like to know how you feel about each breed, or the breeds as a whole, from a temperament standpoint. How important is temperament to you, as a Nihonken enthusiast?
Write how you feel, about your specific Nihonken breed, and/or the other Nihonken breeds. This is not a test or a judgement, just your personal opinion.
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All of the Nihonken, at some point in history, were hunting dogs. Some of them hunted game that required a huge amount of courage, confidence, and tenacity.
The medium sized Nihonken, specifically, have a lot of similarities to a few other medium sized hunting breeds, like the Russo-European Laika, Karelian Bear Dog, Norwegian Elkhound, West Siberian Laika, and even the Catahoula Leopard Dog. Many of these breeds are consider serious working breeds and have been selected for their temperament and not as much for looks.
My question for all of you is this: Where would YOU like to see the temperament of the Nihonken go?
Would you like the temperament of the Nihonken to move back toward it's origin?
Would you like the temperament of the Nihonken to move more toward a softer, less "working type", temperament type?
Do you see some other preferred tempment for the Nihonken?
Do you feel the breeds are true to their "type" as far as temperament goes?
I'm curious how all of you feel. I would like to know how you feel about each breed, or the breeds as a whole, from a temperament standpoint. How important is temperament to you, as a Nihonken enthusiast?
Write how you feel, about your specific Nihonken breed, and/or the other Nihonken breeds. This is not a test or a judgement, just your personal opinion.
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Comments
I love the fact that my two can be sunbathing in the back yard, lazy as can be, but the minute they hear/see/smell a small animal they are OFF AND RUNNING trying to hunt it. I love that they still have that drive in them and I don't' see any reason they shouldn't have their "hunting" drive.
I know some people who say my dogs are too "cat like" and because of they they don't consider them true "companion" dogs, but I tell them, if I wanted a dumb dog who stuck to me like glue I would have gotten a lab or golden (NOTHING against the breeds), I want a dog that challenges me to be the best dog owner I can be and I truly believe my Shiba's do that.
While the original intent of the native Japanese spitze was certainly not for a housepet, if not for the public's continued support and patronage, the breed would probably not exist. This includes the public that just wants one as a regular housepet. The truth is that most people can't handle the "working type" of almost every dog breed, except perhaps those specifically bred as companion animals (Maltese, et al).
As it goes, the demand for companion type Japanese spitze far outweighs the demand for working type, and so therefore the softening of characteristics is somewhat unavoidable. This goes for dogs that are still today used widely for working, unlike the Japanese spitze. One can take the Doberman Pinscher as a good example.. The fearful Doberman of Louis Dobermann's day, today is a very amenable housepet, a good size, low shed, and a professional snuggle bug. HOWEVER, it still retains much of Dobermann's original dogs' biddability and ease of motivation and training.. and much of this can be attributed to national breed clubs striving to make the Doberman that way. Should we say that we have strayed from Dobermann's original vision? Perhaps.. but personally I see nothing wrong in that. I know a good many kennels and breeders that do still breed serious working dogs, and other kennels that simply breed lovely house pets.. nothing is wrong in either instance.
Everytime I hear the arguement for "original intent".. it comes to mind that the original intent is now no longer the needed/wanted/used intent. .. yes, we should hold some sentiment for the original purpose, but also realize that perhaps if their function was still the same as yesteryears', they'd likely be still pretty much the same..
On the downside, she would make an awful pet for most people-----OMG-she just got stung by a bee, her face is swelling.
Edit-ok, benadryl given, swelling is impressive but not serious.
Anyways, I really like the temperments of the Shiba I am seeing comming out of the breeders in my area where some lines produce a more companionable temperment that is great for pet homes and others produce a sharper dog more suitable to working/showing. I like that these two types are distinct and bred that way on purpose. I prefer the sharper tempered Shiba personally, which is probably most like the temperment 100 years ago, but the average owner would probably not like it.
I agree with Yukidomari. For Kai, we breed them, and they are sold as good housepets that can also live in apartments due to their low energy level in the home. Yes, they do have a low energy level in the house, but it's because nothing really stimulates them in the home. IMO it is their prey drive, and the ability to exercise it, that will keep a Kai happy.
I could see Kai living outside and being happier than in the home, but if we try to sell that to the general public, their "primitiveness" or whatever you want to call it people would probably be less willing to buy them. Or maybe it's because of this that there are not a lot of Kai sold in the US.
Would you like the temperament of the Nihonken to move back toward it's origin?
>What is the origin? A spirited boldness? A sharp hunter?
Would you like the temperament of the Nihonken to move more toward a softer, less "working type", temperament type?
>I think, as stated above, that many would like two separate types - a softer pet and a sharper worker. Ideally, you want uniformity or you end up with the plight of the retriever who cannot retrieve because he lacks instinct and his coat is too heavy. Ideally (which will never happen) it should be their original purpose - the sharp, ground hunter.
Do you see some other preferred temperament for the Nihonken?
>I love the idea of the Dogo Argentino, who is a loving housepet when not on the job and a fearless boar bringer-downer when on the job. Perhaps in that far off dream of ideals, the NihonKen could be an even mix of this.
Do you feel the breeds are true to their "type" as far as temperament goes?
>Having only lived with shibas, no. However, my shibas do, on varying levels possess their Kan’i, Ryosei and Soboku.
I'm curious how all of you feel. I would like to know how you feel about each breed, or the breeds as a whole, from a temperament standpoint. How important is temperament to you, as a Nihonken enthusiast?
>Its very important, not as important as their overall health but certainly more important than appearance.
(in case someone doesn't know:
Kan’i is translated as “spirited boldness” and means “well-balanced, courageous and self-confident”.
Ryosei (”good nature”) refers to the loyal and obedient character of the shiba and to her strong senses which make her an ideal home guardian.
Soboku refers to the natural beauty of the soul, meaning that a shiba is unaffected,cheerful and spontaneous. )
The thing is, though, I have not heard of the same being done for Shiba, Akita, or any of the JP spitze. I have often heard of retriever puppies being tested for "birdiness", and herders and guardwork dogs being tested for drive, and even fighting dogs being tested for "gameness" when it comes to who will be placed where. Across the board, though, when it comes to nihon-ken, no breeder I know is seriously interested in anything else other than people looking for hiking buddies, house pets, or show dogs.. me included.
I will freely admit that I do NOT want a dog like a Karelian Bear Dog, nor do I want one that is said to be the original character of an 1800's Akita. If I wanted primitive, I'd go and get myself a license and own a wolf. I don't want a wolf. I don't want a Czech-line working GSD.
I would imagine that for the large Shiba-owning population here - if most Shiba did possess the attitude of an (even more) drive-y working dog, most would not enjoy that, and I'd imagine there would be even more homeless Shiba.
Her primitiveness has also given me a few headaches, her prey drive and un-ending energy and need to run / play being the most troublesome, but yet these "issues"/ attributes has gotten me out the door to excersise with her, and I've never felt healthier / stronger! I would love for this to be kept in Shibas, as that's what makes them Shibas and unique. If their primitive temperment were bred out, why get a shiba? Might as well get the Maltese.
Unfortunately this is just my view..and I know most people out there would rather get the cute shiba w/out the primitive attributes..or claim they didn't know about the primitve side. Yukidomari is right though, unfortunatley demand for the softer temperment is favored, which is a shame, b/c I think we lucked out with Spud's primitiveness..i love it (even if she was from a pet store, but that's a whole other thread, temperment wise, she's pretty cool).
I won't comment on other Nihon Ken's, as I have never had hands on experience with the other Japanese breeds. Thanks for reading my essay ;-)
I like the Shiba temperament as it is.
If their temperament is so far off from their original hunting purpose, I wouldnt mind seeing more of that in them. I hope to get Fuu ,and maybe Sachi if her eyesight permits, into tracking one day. I would love to go small game hunting with them.
I dont think their temperament should be conformed into more of a companion dog. If people want a dog like that, get a breed already like that. Dont take the dog I love and turn it into a lap dog.
Temperament is extremely important to me. I think that if anyone believes that the temperaments of the Nihonken should be altered into an even 'softer, less "working type", temperament' they should get a different breed of dog. If someone thinks that a Shiba should be more more personable then they are now, then they just got a Shiba because of how it looks with little consideration for their temperaments to begin with, and those are the people who wouldnt be able to handle them. But that comes down to getting a dog with a temperament that fits you and your lifestyle, not buying a dog because its cute and trying to mold him into what you want.I agree with what Irene said, if you dont like the 'primitive side' of any Nihonken get a Maltese.
I really like the idea of placing higher-drive dogs in appropriate homes and lower-drive dogs in "pet" homes, my concern with that would be if you started selecting for higher-drive Nihonken, that your lower-drive benchmark would become higher-drive than the typical pet breeder produces. Meaning, would you pigeonhole yourself in a situation where you couldn't produce a drive low enough for pet homes and therefore end up with more dogs being returned to you due to being too much dog for a pet owner?
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yukidomari: I will freely admit that I do NOT want a dog like a Karelian Bear Dog, nor do I want one that is said to be the original character of an 1800's Akita. If I wanted primitive, I'd go and get myself a license and own a wolf. I don't want a wolf. I don't want a Czech-line working GSD.
That implies you think the KBD, 1800's Akita, and Czech-line working GSD are closer in temperament to the Wolf. Is that what you are saying?
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tjbart17: but if we try to sell that to the general public, their "primitiveness" or whatever you want to call it people would probably be less willing to buy them. Or maybe it's because of this that there are not a lot of Kai sold in the US.
Would that be a bad thing? Would less people wanting Kai Ken be a bad thing?
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Jen: What is the origin? A spirited boldness? A sharp hunter?
I guess that is part of what I am asking. What is YOUR interpretation of the described temperament of the Nihonken breeds? (and I think you answered it)
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Personally, I am on the fence as to if a breed like the Kai or Shikoku should be bred down to a simple pet existence (with less drive and a better pet tempment), or if they should be bred back to the temperament needed to preform their job, bred significantly less, and then placed in very selective homes.
In some cases, for the sake of the individual dogs, I feel they will do better as softer dogs, but in other cases I feel that will hurt their spirit and ruin what makes them so special and also defeat the point of preserving the breed to begin with.
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No,.. sorry, that came off wrong. I just meant that they are what people mistakenly term as "primitive"..a GSD of any type is anything but.... and that they are just dogs (the dog ones, anyway) generally with more drive, more work-task oriented, and less amenable to 'regular' life as most people know it. Wolves, well, if a wolf didn't have hunting drive, well.. it's a dead wolf, then.
"I really like the idea of placing higher-drive dogs in appropriate homes and lower-drive dogs in "pet" homes, my concern with that would be if you started selecting for higher-drive Nihonken, that your lower-drive benchmark would become higher-drive than the typical pet breeder produces. Meaning, would you pigeonhole yourself in a situation where you couldn't produce a drive low enough for pet homes and therefore end up with more dogs being returned to you due to being too much dog for a pet owner?"
I think that if a kennel had the reputation of producing great working dogs - again, I don't know any in the Nihon-ken arena.. just in "our breeds" including the Dobe and Minpin (yes, there are many working minpins) - that a person looking for a pet dog from such a kennel would rightly assume that even the "softest" dog from the kennel would still embody some of the working characteristics of that kennel's foundation. I wouldn't go to a Czech border patrol GSD kennel, ask for a pet dog (nothing wrong with doing that) and expect it to get a dog the same as a show-kennel American GSD pet-temperament dog. There'd be a reason to seek out such a kennel in the first place.. whether for a pet or for a serious hard-hitting dog.
I also think that a few people are either underestimating, or overestimating their dog's prey drive, and what it means to be a 'working' dog. Just because a dog has a prey-drive, doesn't make it a good working dog. And almost all dogs have a prey-drive.. down to our 8lb Miniature Pinscher. If you (and not YOU, specifically, Brada,.. I know you have quite a few breeds) have never owned other breeds, or experienced true working drive/character or workable/productive hunting drive, it would be hard to understand that.
In our area Breeders already have a problem with people misusing Akitas as it is, without breeding for a sharper temperament. Though what I think should be taken with a pinch of salt as I'm not incredibly knowledgeable. I like the Akitas I've met the way they are.
I don't think that less people wanting a Kai would be a bad thing. I think that at the height of the market for Kai's in the US, we saw some irresponsible breeders exploiting the breed and with poor breeding practices, including in-breeding. We do not see many Kai rescues, Kai mixes, but for the low number we have in the US (let's say we have a population of 300) the percentage of these is too high for me.
I have always known that Kai's are very unique. I knew what I was getting into when I got Koda, and I love him for all that he is or will be but he is work. I would make the same decision on getting a Kai, but I went into it with eyes open and years of research. Had I just gone to a couple of breeders websites, I may have had the wrong impression of what a Kai is. An honest and open breeder would sell them as just how you described in your response to my thread about Koda's fears. They have a high defensive drive coupled with a high prey drive and are extremely sensitive. If an owner can deal with all that and what comes along with it then yes get a Kai. It's really all about education and educating yourself.
I would hate to see the Kai get breed to be more "soft" or with less working/prey drive. OK, the defensive drive can get on my nerves a little. lololol. But it's all about survival instinct, and I would not want to tamper with that either.
"but in other cases I feel that will hurt their spirit and ruin what makes them so special and also defeat the point of preserving the breed to begin with."
I agree. If someone were to breed a Kai with less prey drive or workability then I don't know what would drive them to be happy and totally satisfied. It would hurt their spirit. Same with breeding to just be house pets. They are not indoor house pets. They can coincide with you in the home, but it's necessary to get them out. A Kai stuck in the house is not a happy and fullfilled animal.
--- well in the past the Shibas were much sharper/harsher dogs. The could be problematic in multiples. Due to efforts in breeding there is more versatility in being able to work with them in and around others (dogs and people). They are a little more flexible now.
Brad asks:
Q: Would you like the temperament of the Nihonken to move more toward a softer, less "working type", temperament type?
----Well this is tough question one I have grappled with for sometime.
In the Shibas I have seen all types. It is tough to say since a more mellow dog is great for working with/in public and you can take them anywhere and they recover well or just don't react at all. On a personal level I prefer my huntress female a lot. She is also the most attentive and responsive but does note the indiscretions in life. If I could duplicate her drive and her complex thinking capabilities I would have no hesitation. However, her tough nature comes with a price. She is a BITCH in every sense of the word when she feels she needs to put the heat on. Although She takes no crap from any dog she is accepting and pretty tolerant once she knows them. She is not keen on new people though without proper intros first. However, I would not trade her for the world. She trained easily and cgc was a breeze….In agility very much a team member. Very intense focus and food motivated as well. My others vary in scale form shy to nervous to plain not giving a crap. One even likes to swim and another just prefers the couch, so the trade outs are all different as you can see.
I’d say I like the working aspect the best for me, but you do have to keep a smart working dog occupied or they get into trouble even in older age. The drive does not end and that is tough desire for some to fullfil.
Q: Do you see some other preferred tempment for the Nihonken? Do you feel the breeds are true to their "type" as far as temperament goes?
----- I’d like to see some of that keen drive pulled through for tracking and other working aspects such as scent detection. Shibas are the perfect size for this but overlooked in some capacity although they may be good at it. I think the traits for hunting are being dimmed down in some aspects over time though. This is just an observation and I have no proof of that outright.
I think what is desired in temperament is certainly culturally influenced depending on where you are located/living. Here in America the rural landscape is changing, and as such, so are the desires of those who have dogs. Most dogs in urban areas are pets, so a high working drive is not as desirable nor easy to deal with. Those in more rural areas that hunt with dogs have no idea what to do with the breed so hunting in the traditional form is done with seemingly more flexible or traditional American/English dog breeds. Therefore, Shibas are no longer being selected for their keen sense in the field and that is a shame. I value a dog with keen senses and good mobility. Truly society is inadvertently shaping the breeds over time as much as we care not to think about it.
Snf
My brother has very driven hunting-line pointers, and the truth is, bird season is only a few weekends a year. He still has to live with them the rest of the year, and they require TONS of exercise and are so fast that he must exercise them by mountain biking alongside them in summer and skimobiling with them in winter. He also keeps birds for them to work a little off season. They cannot sit still and hang out for 5 hours, they MUST run. I sat on the couch with one of them relaxing in my lap and I cannot believe the RPMs that dog was throwing inside. Brother is a snowmaker at a ski mountain and takes them to work - it takes skimobiling/4 wheelering to the top of the mountain, down again, and halfway up again before the dogs *begin* to get tired. Real working dogs are a LOT more than most modern society people signed up for, so it would seem balanced to me to select for an appreciable definite character but not overly stressful amount of drive for the dog's stress-load sake, and the owners' enjoyment as well.
And more to the point, it's used a lot to describe "wild" traits in dogs, and often "aggression" (which is another term I am not a fan of) is included as a "primitive" trait, but "aggression" is not at all a trait of wild canids.
If you are bored and want to read a lot, here is the full story: part 1, part 2
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Where would YOU like to see the temperament of the Nihonken go?
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Akita - Methinks, since akita are primarily sold as household pets their general temperament now is very good. Very "family" dogs.
Shiba - I would like to see the shiba bred to be less sensitive. [ to water, the elements, dirt, etc. ] It still surprised me for being a dog bred to flush game how much [ so many ] of them dislike water!
Shikoku - Hmm. I would, methinks, like to see more drive. More desire for work, like the Kai. It seems, amongst shikoku, there are two "types" of personality, a higher-drive one & a lower drive one. Methinks, Shikoku are working dogs, & this is what attracts me to them. A dog to take hiking / camping with that will glady face the elements.
Kai - A little less dog reactivity, methinks. I notice, mainly in videos of Japanese Kai, that there seems to be a high level of dog reactivity. However, I'm not too sure if this is just the way the Kai are raised, vs. it being an in-breed trait.
Would you like the temperament of the Nihonken to move back toward it's origin?
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That depends. Would their original purpose still suit today's purpose? For example, Akita no longer [ or very very little ] are used for hunting. So I do not believe they need their hunting drive in this day & age. Like Humans, dogs need to adapt for modern times & our current use for them. Since Akita are mainly companion pets, I can't see them "needing" a strong hunting drive & think it would be counteractive to the success of the breed.
Would you like the temperament of the Nihonken to move more toward a softer, less "working type", temperament type?
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Akita - Yes. Though, I believe they are already "there" for the most part.
Shiba - No. I think some traits of the shiba are still inherently strong [ their independence ] but some could stand improvement. I doubt shibas were as "sensitive" a few hundred years ago as much as they are today. [ paws being touched, dirt, water ] Shibas appear to be the "Drama Queens" of the nihon ken world. [ Shiba scream, anyone? ] So I believe certain traits should be brought back, while the rest remain the same.
Shikoku & Kai - Definitely not. If a person can't handle a "working" type dog like the Shika / Kai, they simply shouldn't get one. Match the breed to the human who corresponds to it, don't change the dog to "sell" better.
Do you see some other preferred temperament for the Nihonken?
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As stated above, in general, I would like to see less dog reactivity. A dog who also has it's independence, but remains loyal to it's owner. A dog who is not so sensitive to the elements, but still with a keen drive.
Do you feel the breeds are true to their "type" as far as temperament goes?
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Unfortunately, I believe since the flood of BYB's & Pet Store & Puppy Mills...the Shiba & Akita in particular are not so close to their original "type." There seems to be such a variance in "type" now due to the constant disregard for temperament when being bred. Even Show Dogs are being bred away from their "type" to meet some "standard" that some person wrote up. In general, methinks SOME dogs meet the true "type" but they are not the majority in the populace.
I'm curious how all of you feel. I would like to know how you feel about each breed, or the breeds as a whole, from a temperament standpoint. How important is temperament to you, as a Nihonken enthusiast?
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Temperment [ & health ] are number one in my book, far over looks / appearance / standard / size. If I could, for example, I would LOVE to get a Shikoku from some of the working lines in Japan. I already have in mind, whichever breeder I choose to get my future Shikoku from, I will be asking them for a high-drive, highly-workable pup. I will PREFER a male / darker / black sesame, however, these are very slight preferences. I also do not care if he's too large / small / poor urajiro / etc. I'd much rather have a dog I can really work with [ hike, obedience, agility, etc. ] then a dog that struggles to do that but looks pretty because it meets "standard."
Hope that was useful
Sangmort...not busting on you in particular, but I find it curious that in the scenario for the AKITA, you expect them to be good companions and are not in need of their hunting instincts. Furthermore the dog is expected to "adapt to modern times and adapt to the current use". On the flip side, you wouldn't change the SHIKOKU or KAI at all, and insist that the owners adapt to them. Ironic?
I have a related question. There is a bunch of TALK about temperament. Defining appropriate temperament, seeking appropriate temperament, breeding for temperament, blah, blah, blah. But how is this actually put into practice? If you are a potential puppy purchaser, how do you assess someone's breeding program for temperment?? People say all the time, they breed for temperament or temperament is their priority, but what is the PROOF? CGC? ATTS? Therapy Dog work? Other titles? What?
Do you really believe that some NihonKen breeds are more 'flexible' now or is this just a side-effect, if you will, of how we cohabitate with dogs currently. More and more people keep dogs and live in urban environments with more 'stuff' around them; more people pursue socialization and training classes vs "dog that never leaves the farm". Dogs in general are keen adaptors.
"I have a related question. There is a bunch of TALK about temperment. Defining appropriate temperment, seeking appropriate temperment, breeding for temperment, blah, blah, blah. But how is this actually put into practice? If you are a potential puppy purchaser, how do you assess someone's breeding program for temperment?? People say all the time, they breed for temperment or temperment is their priority, but what is the PROOF? CGC? ATTS? Therapy Dog work? Other titles? What?"
I think you can assess their breeding program in usually 2 ways:
A) Meeting the dogs they have, and the dogs that are bred yourself. This includes more than a 1 time kennel-visit, but actually developing a relationship with the breeder so you come to know their dogs and their dogs see you as more than a stranger.
B) Titles, like you said. I like CGCs, TDs, CDs, any of the few SchH titles for appropriate breeds.
While I don't disagree with (A), I don't think that it is ever done to that extent the overwhelming majority of the time in puppy transactions (sadly).
Are any US NihonKen participating in hunt tests/trials?
Obedience titles are nice, but I don't think they provide the whole picture. A dog with a CD could still be aggressive towards other dogs, fearful of kids, and bite when you attempt to trim its nails.
Training modifies response, but doesn't always change underlying motivations. Obedience is great and provides some building blocks, but any behaviorist will tell you that it is not the whole answer for behavior problems. So when you're presented with a scenario, you ask yourself, is it a temperament problem, a training problem, or both?
If temperament is considered 'essential to breed type', how would you assess it in the show ring? Personally, I don't think it's possible, and hence, show ring results can further skew breeds genetically which leads to trends in temperament and health, particularly with popular breeds.
Temperament is complex and I'm not doing a very good job of clarifying my thoughts. I think it all ends up sort of analogous to the whole nature vs. nurture argument. One must also consider expectations of the future owner and definitions of 'success'.
One thing I know: I've got three dogs that many people would DETEST living with.
1. Do you really believe that some NihonKen breeds are more 'flexible' now or is this just a side-effect, if you will, of how we cohabitate with dogs currently. More and more people keep dogs and live in urban environments with more 'stuff' around them; more people pursue socialization and training classes vs "dog that never leaves the farm". Dogs in general are keen adaptors.
---Good question. I think flexible has to be defined. I can only remark on the Shiba breed from my own context. I would say today, overall Shibas are more easy going (speaking of generally rep breeders ) and I don't think "flexible" or stable temperament is fully a side-effect of cohabitation.
In my definition of "flexible" = somewhat socially tolerant and accepting of change without the over reactive side effects that put dogs in jeopardy for fight or flight on a constant basis.
In earlier developments of Shibas here in America (22 yrs ago or so, as a rare breed and at inception of AKC,) a lot of puppies were very "harsh" from the git go even with each other and among litter mates, before any training was ever attempted. Some of those animals were quite difficult socially as adults too, although having been handled a lot and in early development. So I'd say that had to do more with nature (genetics) than nurture. Since then there has been concerted effort to get a more a malleable temperament among the lines and I think that has certainly allowed for more flexible training options and participation in many activities.
IMHO a dog that isn't stable is not stable, and it does not matter where you live and you can give all the training in the world, the individual is what it is mentally/neurologically. For example in humans ADD or ADHD or Schizophrenia is what it is. You can modify it via behavior, counseling, food, and medication but again it is what it is, and I believe it has a genetic base. These types of issues can require excessive management for many. I am not indicating that any of the breeds have or had these human problems but you get my drift that much about temperament is inherited and it does influence the working or "malleablness" of the dog. I don't want milk toast but I don't want a dog that has such a low threshold that it has problems in the current environment that most of us have to live in today.
It is true the new training methods and greater efforts by owners further influence & support most dogs, by finding an outlet that now must take place of "running around on the farm" to let off steam. However at the heart is the genetic influence of having a flexible temperament to start.
2. Team Laika asks.....In all the temperament Blah blah blah.... in regard to selection "how is this actually put into practice? If you are a potential puppy purchaser, how do you assess someone's breeding program for temperment?? People say all the time, they breed for temperment or temperment is their priority, but what is the PROOF? CGC? ATTS? Therapy Dog work? Other titles?"
---For me I look at dogs in the field as they work and the Agility developments and the lines behind the top scoring dogs. I also look at them individually when I can if I am interested. Part of agility and working it is handler skill I will admit, but the other half is the dog. Usually you will see the tendency in some lines to repeat behaviors and those are the ones I take second look at. The records are good enough now you can track better than in the past in terms of performance events. This isn't a bible of how to, but it pays to look at who and what for lines in work and performance, at least for me. A hands on of the dogs is the final determiner.
So after this long barrage of text we are back to purpose....What is the intended purpose you want the dog for and what are the desired characteristics that genetically make the animal that way it is and the way you need it to be. I think Jen made a good point in another thread when she stated that it is subjective in what breeders want and desire in creation of their lines, look, and often behavior of the dogs. If you ask probably each will give you a different answer.
Snf
Interesting, I'm going to take this question from a more mental health psycho-dyadic perspective, not by proof of CGC and titles.
I was actually speaking with Chrystal the other day and we were talking about adding new pups to our homes and what we would look for. She said something that struck me as so true, and something inevitably I sub-consciously did when picking out Koda which makes sense given my past in Social Work/Mental Health. She said that she would interview the puppy's mother to make sure that she not only had a good temperment, but relationship with the pup. (Chrystal please correct me if I said this wrong.)
For me, I believe that the relationship between the mother and the puppies is an important one. The first few weeks of a puppies life is spent totally relying on their mother for nurturing and support. If they can not feel secure in their relationship with their mother, than ultimately IMO they will grow up to be more fearful, reactive, aggressive, etc. It's that early attachment between the mother and her puppies that will be the foundation for any future relationship be it with other pack members, humans, and animals.
In interviewing a prospective bitch.....I would look for one who has had other litters and ask the breeder how she is with them, i.e. how well did she clean the pups when they were born and how easy has it been for her to feed and take care of her pups, was she aggressive or guard her pups when humans tried to touch them (note I would think that resource guarding pups would be a negative thing).
I would also shy away from purchasing a pup from a mother who is a) too young to breed b) having her first litter c) did not bond well with her past litters. If a female is having her first litter, I would stay in contact with the breeder and ask how she is doing with her puppies.
After asking several questions about Koda's mom, I was comfortable with my decision that she would be a great mother to him and he would have a good temperment. I would also ask questions to owners of previous litters. I was able to find a couple of Koda's brothers and sisters online and asked them about their dog's temperments.
If a breeder is breeding a bitch who has had difficulty in rearing her pups for 8 weeks, then I would say that he/she is not breeding for temperment. That may be a strong statement, but IMO it's true.
When Brad told me this, naturally I thought about Sage's mother, and how she was too sick to teach her pups and that Sage's brother was already growling at the puppies in the litter when rescue sprung them out of the shelter. Furthermore I found out later than she was also dog-aggressive, so what he said to me made perfect sense. Sage was headed to be like he is, and I didn't know enough to treat him like a wary kai with a depleted infancy. I treated him like Reilly, a much more confident beast. Ironically, Reilly's mother was stray, Sage's mother had a lousy owner.
Another reason why I sometimes think a well reared full-blooded kai is worth a look for my pack. I like the independent dogs, I appreciate prey drive- it makes dogs fun to play with and interesting hiking companions, the things I would not have seen if not for my dogs!- I'd like to look at kai and shikoku for Dog Three, but because I am gauging for compatibility with Rei and Sage, I need to pay much more attn to temperament than a home with no dogs yet would.
If a breed of dog is being used for work [ hunting / tracking / etc. ] then it's temperament should be centered around it's primary work goal. If the dog breed is no longer being used for work, it should be focused on attaining a temperament more suitable as a companion. As, if the dog is no longer being used to do it's original job, & it's temperment is not suitable for a "pet home" environment, there is a chance the dog breed can die.
This is what I mean by "adjust for the times." If they're no longer being used for work, they should be made more "companion-like" so that there is still a place for them. If Akita had the same temperment as they did several hundred years ago, & were not being used for work today, Very VERY few people would take them into their homes as pets or continue to breed them. They are no longer needed for work...very few people take them as companions...so why breed them? This is how breeds die...
In the dog breed's best interest it is best to ask, can they still be used for work? Or has the breed become solely a companion pet?
If the first question...keep breeding them for workable qualities....
If the second...breed them to be more companion-like & suitable for a pet home.~
So you keep breeding them, and you breed them for work.
Would you sell one to a person who does not hunt?
I plan on attaining either Shikoku or Kai, while I do not hunt, [ right now neways ] I am drawn to these two breeds for extensive hiking [ 13+miles ] & long camping trips. As well as obedience / tracking / etc.
Furthermore, odds are there will be some dogs in a litter who do not have the "ideal" working temperament, & would do well in a "pet home" [ given the owner plans on assuming the responsibilities of having a working dog, & taking care of their mental / physical needs. Even if they are not REALLY high in drive, they are still much higher than say, a Pomeranian ]
Hope that makes sense