I voted yes. Recognition is inevitable, and the breed club that works for it (as someone posted earlier) will have the upper hand in the direction the breed goes over there.
I'd prefer it was my friends on the Nihonken Forum being in that position than a perhaps monetarily motivated person or club.
I voted yes. Recognition is inevitable, and the breed club that works for it (as someone posted earlier) will have the upper hand in the direction the breed goes over there.
I'd prefer it was my friends on the Nihonken Forum being in that position than a perhaps monetarily motivated person or club.
So I'll ask this question, since I don't know: in Shikoku who IS working on forming a strong breed club, or a breed club of any kind, for that matter? In the case of the Shikoku, since it's already established with the UKC and Canadian Kennel Club, I would think FSS recognition wouldn't be very far behind?
Brad (our forum admin), Corina (with her 2 lovely Shikoku), and Peggy Graham from O'Ikon are working on the breed club issues as far as I know. They can tell you more. There are many other people who are interested in assisting with this foundation work, most of them on this forum I believe.
Brad (our forum admin), Corina (with her 2 lovely Shikoku), and Peggy Graham from O'Ikon are working on the breed club issues as far as I know. They can tell you more. There are many other people who are interested in assisting with this foundation work, most of them on this forum I believe.
Yep yep! & I'm sure all of the above know, that if they ever need ne help at all, all of us Shikoku enthusiasts here on the forum would LOVE to contribute in any way possible!
Even if we don't have an estabilished breed club, we have a good community of both shikoku owners & enthusiasts. Essentially, we ARE the club. Albeit, a fan club til Brad, Peggy, & Corina get it all sorted out.~
The idea for the Beikoku Shikoku Ken Aikokai is to be an "Umbrella" organization that serves both Canada, the U.S. (Puerto Rico included) and Mexico. Pretty much all of North America and its territories.
I assure you there is no breed club split, as all the same people are involved and for the most part...I believe that we are working towards similar goals. At least, we're breeding to the same standard. If not I'm mistaken...we're all using the NIPPO standard for our Shikoku Ken. I'd like to think that we're all breeding for a balanced dog, of course breeders vary and will have an emphasis on one trait or another. However, due to limited bloodlines in breeding stock...we'll eventually have to "outcross" our lines with one anothers every now and then.
I think the Shikoku will do just fine for now .
As for AKC recognition...to be honest...I'm neither "for" nor "against" it. Considering that I can work on the field and/or compete my dogs under other registries and clubs. Besides, we, as a Shikoku Club, can put on our own shows and assign titles and such (it's in the works). So, you see...we really don't have any motivation to "push" breed recognition. As any litters born in the U.S. can be registered with Puerto Rico's kennel club, which is a recognized kennel club under FCI.
ABSOLUTELY NO NO NO!!!!!!!!! The issue of registering the Kai with AKC is one of the issues that divided and destroyed the few breeders of the Kai a few years ago. In my lifetime, the Kai will NEVER be registered with AKC. There are some Kai registered with the FSS division of AKC(Foundation Stock Service). This is AKC's way to get all the information, breeder's name and pedigrees and then later if they so choose they can take over the breed and make the next step toward full registration without any agreement with any club or association. They call this a take over. AKC can change the standard as to how they want the breed to look and then you have lost breed type. The main essence of the breed is PRIMITIVE and the Japanese have protected that trait through all the years. When we imported the batch of Kai in 1990, 1991 & one in 1992, (the first Kai came to the U.S. as a gift in the 1950's to the Salt Lake City Zoo and no ancestors from the pairs was ever recorded) this was the base of our U.S. breeding program and that was all there was in bloodlines. Not a very big gene pool and one that we knew would eventually peter itself out and the Kai would be no more. There was no way nor is there today anyway that the Kai genepool is large enough to substain if the breed becomes AKC recognized. The first thing that happens when AKC recognizes a breed is the money people, the pro handlers immediately pay the bucks to get the breed and proceed to breed, show, breed, show, breed, show and in a very short period of time the breed has been bred to nothingness. The protectors of the Kai in Japan do not register with JKC and the protectors of the Kai in the U.S. do not register with AKC. The Kai was entrusted to UKC (United Kennel Club) in 1996 by the original imported Mary Malone and the Kai will stay with UKC forever. To date we have 60+ Champions and a little less then 30 Grand Champions with a few ARBA and FORB rare breed club Champions. There are only about 500 Kai in the U.S., so not a big gene pool at all. As far as all the abandoned and resue Kai that you see on the rescue pages, hardly any of those dogs are Kai or even part Kai. It just is not true that there is a lot of Kai at Pet Finders, most are just Akita, German Shepard, Shiba, Cattle dog, Corgi type mixes. Granted there was some Kai that was let go to people that probably did not protect them, but that was many years ago (early to mid 1990)and there is just no way that these Kai are still breeding or producing Kai puppies.
Thank you for the history of the early Kai in this country; you are obviously a staunch protector of your chosen breed.
I don't care one way or the other whether the Kai ever becomes fully registered with the AKC, but I'd like to correct some facts about the AKC that are a bit skewed in this post. I understand your hatred or disgust against the AKC and that's fine, but in a forum where many individuals are learning about all aspects of dogdom including the AKC, I think factual information should be presented. My information comes from the process we went through with the Swedish Vallhund in first attaining FSS status, then entry into the Miscellaneous classes, then full recognition into the Herding Group.
the Kai will NEVER be registered with AKC. There are some Kai registered with the FSS division of AKC(Foundation Stock Service).
The Kai has already been registered with the AKC via FSS. The North American Kai Association apparently got their name into the AKC as a CLUB and established themselves as the club going forward in favor of recognition, although it does not say that on their website. And curiously, they are using the UKC standard.
This is AKC's way to get all the information, breeder's name and pedigrees and then later if they so choose they can take over the breed and make the next step toward full registration without any agreement with any club or association. They call this a take over.
The AKC is an organization of CLUBS. It does not take over a breed. It CANNOT "make the next step toward full registration without any agreement with any club or association." The CLUB must make that request, based on numbers, distribution, dogs with pedigrees, etc. The AKC will not take over a breed. If anything, the North American Kai Association has taken it upon themselves, right or wrong, to become the "voice" of the Kai, and that's apparently at the heart of the dissension, disagreement, animosity, what have you. In other words, your enemy is not the AKC, but the North American Kai Association which has taken it upon themselves to become the liaison with AKC.
AKC can change the standard as to how they want the breed to look and then you have lost breed type.
The AKC does not change standards. The AKC is an organization of clubs. There is nobody on the AKC board sitting around a table discussing "how they want the breed to look." They get this information from the CLUB that they have an association with. They will provide a template eventually for the standard so that all standards are formatted in the same way, but the individual breed information is still there -- and that information comes from the club. That is the extent of their work with the standard.
The AKC does not lose breed type. Breeders lose breed type.
We had this discussion on the Shikoku list, concerning the advantage a club would have if they got their name into the AKC as a "sponsoring" or "parent" club so that they have the control. The North American Kai Association (NAKA) now has that control. There may be a strong faction of Kai fanciers that will never accept that club, will always remain UKC only, will never register their dogs as Foundation Stock, and that's fine. Please just know that it is now virtually inevitable that the Kai, given the numbers you say are in the U.S., will slowly move towards full AKC recognition IF the NAKA wants to go there. If not, they won't.
Marion, I must correct you. Yes, there is a North American Kai Association but I don't think you know entirely who you are talking to when you speak to Marian. She definitely will have a say in the future of the Kai as she has had a say in Kai for probably 20 years in the US. I have not heard from NAKA about this news that you speak of that the Kai are going AKC in January. I haven't heard Marsha or Pam talk about it on their forum. But, yes they do attend UKC shows and show their Kai. Both, like Marian's, Kais are Grand Champions and Champions.
Where did you hear about this if it's not on the NAKA website?
*Edit and Add*
I found this info. on the akc website.
"As of July 13, 2009, the AKC Board of Directors approved the eligibility of Foundation Stock breeds that meet the below criteria may compete in AKC Companion Events; this will be effective January 1, 2010.
•Dogs with three-generation pedigrees recorded in FSS® •Breed Standard has been submitted"
There was not a specific petition from NAKA to have Kai compete. All foundation stock breeds can compete. This isn't a move on the Kai breeders part. I would really watch what and how you say things. You named NAKA as going for this when it's the AKC that changed the rule for everyone. As Marian told you, Kai have be recorded in the Foundation Stock Service since 1997. Nothing more has come from it.
I said nothing about the Kai going AKC in January. I never mentioned them going AKC, never mentioned January. I said they already have a foot in the door via the FSS program, not that they are becoming fully registered. I have no idea when/if they are even reaching Miscellaneous class, haven't kept up with this breed.
I AM saying that the NAKA will become the voice of the Kai to the AKC, that's all. Marian may be a significant force for all other Kais out there, but this CLUB will be the one that will, if it wishes to, do the work towards taking the steps towards recognition. It doesn't HAVE to; but if it wants to, as a CLUB it will have more influence on the AKC than Marian or any one individual, no matter WHO that person is. Right now the club seems to be very carefully staying away from any wording that suggests "We are working towards AKC recognition in the future" but it's there, quietly in the background, just biding time.
What's happening in January 2010 is that the Kai becomes eligible to participate in Companion Events, defined as obedience, rally, agility and tracking. This is just the first of those steps that will lead the breed ever closer towards AKC recognition, again IF the parent club wishes to do so.
True, the club did not petition the AKC to allow Companion Event status, but once the breed gets out there, gets shown, becomes known, it may not take very long for them to take the next step.
On the other hand, if this club became the AKC liaison as a protective measure to PREVENT further steps towards AKC recognition, that was a very smart move. Yes, they can sit in the FSS program for a very long time and go nowhere, except now people can train the dogs for events if they so choose. Not a bad way to go.... That's an interesting step I had not thought of: to become the club with AKC affiliations, and then never take it any further than that.
What I don't know is whether another club, say one with a very strong interest in become an AKC breed, can establish itself and bump the first club out as the AKC connection.... I don't know whether that's possible or how it would be done.
Right now the club seems to be very carefully staying away from any wording that suggests "We are working towards AKC recognition in the future" but it's there, quietly in the background, just biding time.
That's your opinion about a club you know nothing about. This is not a fact.
Please let me rebuke some of your statements. I will start with I do not have a hatred for AKC. I have well over a hundred champions to date with around 40 in just AKC alone. I have always worked well with and enjoyed AKC and plan a future with them also. Because I refuse to see the Kai led down a path of destruction, does not mean that I have hate or disgust about or with AKC. I also do not have a hate for NAKA or anyone that is trying to get the Kai into open registry, it just isn't going to happen with the facts as I know them and the reasons as to why anyone would want to promote the breed to an open end registration.
******You said: The Kai has already been registered with the AKC via FSS. The North American Kai Association apparently got their name into the AKC as a CLUB and established themselves as the club going forward in favor of recognition, although it does not say that on their website. And curiously, they are using the UKC standard.**********
I would like to correct your statement. Actually the NKCA (National Kai Club of America) formed shortly after the importation of the Kai by Mary malone and her members submitted the breed to FSS and the NKCA was the contact club for the Kai. After NAKA contacted FSS, they "somehow" got their contact information and their club listed. Anyone that was a reputable breeder and caretaker of the Kai breed refused to register with FSS again. The caretaking of the breed was going a different way after that. The faster that certain people could get the breed numbers in, the quicker certain people could market the breed for an extreme monetary value. This was not indictive to preserving the small gene pool of the breed. Oh and btw, NAKA is not the only Kai club out there. The very successful FKCA (Foundation Kai Club of America) was formed at the same time as NAKA was and thus the split began.
*******You said: The AKC is an organization of CLUBS. It does not take over a breed. It CANNOT "make the next step toward full registration without any agreement with any club or association." The CLUB must make that request, based on numbers, distribution, dogs with pedigrees, etc. The AKC will not take over a breed. If anything, the North American Kai Association has taken it upon themselves, right or wrong, to become the "voice" of the Kai, and that's apparently at the heart of the dissension, disagreement, animosity, what have you. In other words, your enemy is not the AKC, but the North American Kai Association which has taken it upon themselves to become the liaison with AKC.******
My reply: AKC is not an orginization of clubs, AKC is a record keeper and that is all. Same as UKC, they give a service to people to retain records as a registry. In past history AKC is well know for forging ahead with a take over of registering the breed to full registry without the help and/or okay from the breed clubs. If AKC wants a breed bad enough (which you do as it is always a money maker) they will go ahead with the acquiring of the records and introduce the breed as a fully registered breed that can be shown and bred to the AKC standard. Once done, you can never please everyone and more splits form in the breed, but money is being made from the breed becoming AKC recognized and to many that is what it is all abouyt. Making the breed readily available to anyone for big bucks and breeding and breeding and breeding to make investments back quickly and records attained as quickly as possible. In a few year, the small genepool of a breed has been so corrupted that the breed can not hold on as what it once was. That is the history of many breeds once promoted to high visability. BTW, NAKA did not take it upon themselves to become the liasons, as there was never a discussion, a suggestion, or anything....just all of a sudden a group was representing a breed that they themselves were having a hard time breeding as they had so few Kai amongst them to breed.
****You said: The North American Kai Association (NAKA) now has that control. There may be a strong faction of Kai fanciers that will never accept that club, will always remain UKC only, will never register their dogs as Foundation Stock, and that's fine. Please just know that it is now virtually inevitable that the Kai, given the numbers you say are in the U.S., will slowly move towards full AKC recognition
My response: It is near impossible to make the connections with the very protecting breeders of the Kai. We have worked for many years to get our first few imports from Japan in the last two years with a couple more coming. Only the the dilligence and the connections of a few individuals have we been able to do that. The NAKA breeders have bred themselves into a hole and have nowhere to go with being able to produce more Kai for FSS registrations, so hpw is it going to be possible to get the numbers up in FSS with the Kai Breed? Of the appr. 500 Kai in the U.S. there is fewer then 40 or so that are intact and out of that number the biggest percentage of them are old and not able to produce. I have 18 Kai here and haven't produced a litter in a year and when I do have a litter, the puppies will not be sold intact or registered with FSS. I do know that a lot of the numbers of Kai that are registered with FSS are spayed/neutered pets as NAKA at one point made it mandatory that the stock be reistered with FSS in order to get the numbers up in FSS. Pray tell, what good is those numbers???? Where is the breeding power or promotion of the breed if the breed can not substantiate and breed their breed type?????? Im my personal opnion, I can not phantom AKC/FSS wasting their time with a breed that can not even reproduce themselves for more registration money and promotion with AKC. I also can not imagine that NAKA is trying to promote a breed to AKC recognition that they themselves can not produce or build a future with. There are many contacts out there that are there becuase they requested or petitioned to be there, but that doesn't prove substance of the ability to promote for the future.
As far as the advantage of the Kai being able to participate with AKC in companion events, that option has always been there with their foundation registration UKC. AKC is only offering another avenue to pick up the same titles and guess what...... AKC makes money!!!!!! this still isn't going to make the gene pool larger and the breeding program bigger or better. I prefer to spend my time and spin my wheels with protecting what I have in the breed, promoting the essense of the breed and keeping the gene pool viable for a future in the USA of the Kai.
shibainumc I like what you said, I like your passion about the breed and your experience and everything.
I feel that even if AKC recognition is inevitable, why rush it. We should take our time and learn and study the experiences and events that has happened to other breeds. The Shikoku breed in and of itself is new to the US (heck, new to North America), and there's so many 'kinks' we need to still work out and resolve. the gene pool is still so small, and once they are pushed to FSS status, it's just gonna limit what we can do.
my goodness, that's a lot of dog dishes to fill.. and then wash!
Thank you for posting some 'kai in the us' history for us. All the Club organizing stuff is over my head- I am merely a companion dog owner. But what I gleaned that is good is that there are new kai coming over to help the gene pool and produce healthy kai, which is good for us who enjoy them!
Marian (with an A), do you feel (somewhat/very/absolutley?) confident there are no mixes happening?
All Kai get to live out their lives here. I had agreed in the very beginning to keep the Kai from the original importer and let them live out their lives here and I did just that. At times I had 30 Kai here! I just lost the last Kai I received from Mary Malone about a month ago, the great "TORA" with over 20 Best in Shows and an UKC GRCH, ARBA CH, NKCA CH and a CGC on his name. Just for shock factor, it cost me over $600.00 a month to take care of my dogs. And I don't begrudge one penny!
I am fairly confident that no one is breeding Kai cross dogs. Number one anything that leaves my place leave on a spay/neuter contract (with a copy of the vet procedure sent to me for my records) or an open show/breeder contract and that contracts states that you can only breed to purebred Kai only and to intentally or unintentally breed out of the Kai breed, there is a $10,000.00 fine payable to me as well as loss of your Kai to me!!! I just don't think anyone is going to take a chance at losing their Kai over breeding out of the breed. I would hope and I do feel that the other people that were breeding until they bred themselves out, were equally as determined to not let intact Kai out there for anyone to breed to whatever. So I feel pretty good about the limitations of Kai mix happening. I just had a lady drive out to my place the other day. She was absolutely certain that she had rescued and owned a beautiful brindle Kai for years until he passed at 16 years of age. She marveled at all the Kai here and then showed me a picture of her dog that she was sure was a pure Kai. The picture showed a sweet sheperd mix with not one Kai characteristic except he was brindled like a Mal or a cattle dog. As I stated in an earlier post, the Kai was not as protected or as carefully placed, so way back in the early and mid 90's I could see where there would or could have been some misbreedings. But given the age factor, any puppies would be in later years now and not the young "Kai mix" that are being found and rescued. The chances are slim anyway. I do know that the people that I am involved with are not breeding yet and when they do, they will be consulting me for some advice.
30 Kai in one place! That would be like Disneyland for me. '
The Kai that I mentioned on Petfinder were returned Kai, breeders known. I have a friend with a Shiba and her cousin got a Kai last year from a shelter in NY, breeder known and verified when contacted. It was ofcourse not you Marian. I have seen a few people say that they have full blooded Kai's on forums that were rescues. Not sure. There are also a couple rescues on here.
In Koda's litter, 5 were born. All the males will be neutered. Koda and one of his brothers were neutered on the same day. His other brother is getting neutered in a couple of weeks. The two sisters will be shown and kept in tact. I had the option if I wanted a "show dog" to keep Koda intact, but there was never an agreement that he could ever be bred. He is a companion dog, and I was happy to agree with neutering him. It seems like the community is small enough that we keep in touch one way or another or hear about eachother's dogs in some way. Koda and I are seeing his breeder tomorrow. I'm really excited.
When I first learned of the Kai, it was in 1997 from a man who used to go to the dog park. He was from Japan and brought his Akita Inu and Tora Inu over when he moved to the Bay Area to work in Silicon Valley. That's when I fell in love with Kai and visited Cynthia Hernandez in 1999 looking for one. I think that was a bad time for the Kai in the US. I do think that breeding has become more tight and controlled and am thankful that breeders, whether or not they have always agreed on the direction of the breed, limited the number of intact dogs and got this under control. I salute you Marian for having such a tough contract.
BTW just a little side note, Koda's sister's name is Tora. She won Best Puppy in August. I hope she does that name proud. She's got a lot to live up to.
There appear to be books out now on the border collie war.
The pattern to "get" reticient breeds into the AKC was for the AKC to find a small faction to break away from the long-established breed clubs and promote the faction as the parent club. Happened with the Australian Shepherds according to the article, happened with the Jack Russells (now named Parson Russells in the AKC), and I've heard it's starting to happen with the coonhounds. The coonhounds are strong in numbers in the UKC, so they provide a big target in light of flagging AKC registrations/revenue.
So historically, the requirement of nationwide interest doesn't mean that the AKC recognized parent club (ie. the faction club) has to be the one to set-up nationwide interest. Hence the high suspicion in giving the AKC any leeway by giving registration information via FSS. Using FSS is not harmless.
AKC-FSS is also not necessary, IMO, in maintaining records with our modern day computers and programs. I know English Shepherds utilize their own registry and include information that the AKC do not automatically provide on pedigrees. There are ways to input work characteristics and health so it can be better tracked.
Imagine a Nihon Ken customized database with features such as a field that can read/handle Japanese characters so mistaken identities caused by a bad Romanization to English are eliminated. That would have the ability to include titles obtained in different organizations such as Sch and French Ring, qualifications given out such as the Delta Society (therapy dogs), or certificates given out such as ATTS. Or maybe features that state the 10 generation COI of the dog in question, the height and teeth count of the dog (as measured by NIPPO), and the age of the dog at death?
I'm a little confused. The FSS doesn't close the stud book until the dogs come into full registry, is this not so? What prevents the club that now has the AKC affiliation from importing more Kai or any other breed in order to increase their numbers and thus their gene pool? How have they bred themselves into a corner?
From what I am reading, the AKC is not the culprit. A group of individuals, whether broken off from an original club or not, form a club, the AKC asks the clubs who wants to become the AKC affiliated club, and the one that says yes, is in. That IS what the AKC is all about.
But you are right about the Border Collie -- we can see the difference between the show dog and the working dog even here in Montana. We have a lot of Border Collies (as well as cattle dogs and aussies since this is cattle country more than sheep country), but the show handlers who bring in their show Border Collies have a different breed. Those Border Collies are beautiful but pretty much dead for personality and probably working ability. I've heard they don't herd, even when given the opportunity. Some few breeders are now trying to mix the two lines so that some of the dogs that DO work can also finish championships, but it's a long road.
You would definitely have AKC show breeders breeding for exaggerated physical traits of the Kai or the Shikoku, and not breeding for any working capability, just the opportunity to get those Group wins and eventually Best in Show. I can't argue that point.
"I'm a little confused. The FSS doesn't close the stud book until the dogs come into full registry, is this not so? What prevents the club that now has the AKC affiliation from importing more Kai or any other breed in order to increase their numbers and thus their gene pool? How have they bred themselves into a corner?"
Marian said: "It is near impossible to make the connections with the very protecting breeders of the Kai. We have worked for many years to get our first few imports from Japan in the last two years with a couple more coming. Only the the dilligence and the connections of a few individuals have we been able to do that. The NAKA breeders have bred themselves into a hole and have nowhere to go with being able to produce more Kai for FSS registrations...."
I think her point was that the NAKA breeders have failed to establish connections to import new breeding stock and therefore can't register additional dogs with the FSS. And that's part of the point. The AKC will do business with whomever is willing, even if that organization isn't in a position to be effective or responsible stewards of the breed.
----
"From what I am reading, the AKC is not the culprit. A group of individuals, whether broken off from an original club or not, form a club, the AKC asks the clubs who wants to become the AKC affiliated club, and the one that says yes, is in. That IS what the AKC is all about."
I don't pretend to have personal knowledge of this, but I read it differently. The AKC IS the culprit here. They want what they want---they want more registrable dogs so they can get more money. Despite a strong breed club's express desires against AKC recognition of any type, the AKC chose to do business with a splinter group (probably knowing full well what they were doing). It's shady business practice if you ask me. It's like the tobacco companies ignoring volumes of research indicating the dangers of cigarettes and choosing instead to recognize the research they funded themselves (that, of course, supports their position that cigarettes aren't conclusively dangerous).
wow..... read this whole forum.... now for my two cents ^_^
I say no to full registration cause I don't like how AKC is just for show. AKC German Shepherd dogs are beautiful. I love their coats, but I'm sorry, I don't want a dog that is crying out in pain at 2 yrs old cause it has any kind of dysplasia (sp?) and cant enjoy basic dog things, like walking. If I'm getting a dog (be it buying, adopting, pick up from streets, or whatever) I do want a physically sound dog over looks, but looks do matter too.
Now about the Shikoku (they are the ones that look like wolves right), if it is something listed on the AKC site like the Kai's are it could save that dog's life should it ever bit anyone. I'm part of a wolfdog community as I am owned by one (lol) and I can tell you some horror bite stories. The FDA does not recognize the rabies vaccine for wolfdogs,aka wolf-hybrids (they do for dogs and wolves, but not for mixes). There is a story about a dog, cant remember his name, that bit someone one day and was euthanized and had it head sent off for testing even though he was vaccinated and current on his rabies. Obviously the test came back negative for rabies. The dog had an ear infection, the owner didn't know it. someone come over to pet him as they had done many of times and the dog bite them. And cause the owner had made jokes about his dog having wolf in him (despite he looked like a badly breed lab) He lost his pet.
There is also a story about an AKC registered husky that was getting out it's owners yard and killing the neighbor chickens. The neighbor complained about the "wolf" attacking his chickens so they sent a wildlife official out. The official swore up and down it was a wolf and shot and killed him on site. The owner upset that his dog had been killed, was never aware of the dogs escapes. The official later resigned after a huge lawsuit. All cause the owner had papers proving that he had a dog not a wolfdog or wolf.
The point I'm making is if you have something concrete to say "It's not a wolf, its a dog. Here is my proof." It will help should something happen.
More people and places recognize AKC over UKC and other registries. But I'm more incline to get something not AKC over AKC. While looks mean something, personality, function, and soundness mean more to me.
I found an old thread that kind of relates to this topic (is this the thread you were talking about in the original post Osy?), and may be a helpful read:
In the case of the akita the AKC will only split the breed when the Akita club of america (ACA) requests it. Since the ACA has again voted in 08 that there is to be no split the AKC can do nothing.
Comments
I'd prefer it was my friends on the Nihonken Forum being in that position than a perhaps monetarily motivated person or club.
I'd prefer it was my friends on the Nihonken Forum being in that position than a perhaps monetarily motivated person or club.
So I'll ask this question, since I don't know: in Shikoku who IS working on forming a strong breed club, or a breed club of any kind, for that matter? In the case of the Shikoku, since it's already established with the UKC and Canadian Kennel Club, I would think FSS recognition wouldn't be very far behind?
Yep yep! & I'm sure all of the above know, that if they ever need ne help at all, all of us Shikoku enthusiasts here on the forum would LOVE to contribute in any way possible!
Even if we don't have an estabilished breed club, we have a good community of both shikoku owners & enthusiasts. Essentially, we ARE the club. Albeit, a fan club til Brad, Peggy, & Corina get it all sorted out.~
I assure you there is no breed club split, as all the same people are involved and for the most part...I believe that we are working towards similar goals. At least, we're breeding to the same standard. If not I'm mistaken...we're all using the NIPPO standard for our Shikoku Ken. I'd like to think that we're all breeding for a balanced dog, of course breeders vary and will have an emphasis on one trait or another. However, due to limited bloodlines in breeding stock...we'll eventually have to "outcross" our lines with one anothers every now and then.
I think the Shikoku will do just fine for now
As for AKC recognition...to be honest...I'm neither "for" nor "against" it. Considering that I can work on the field and/or compete my dogs under other registries and clubs. Besides, we, as a Shikoku Club, can put on our own shows and assign titles and such (it's in the works). So, you see...we really don't have any motivation to "push" breed recognition. As any litters born in the U.S. can be registered with Puerto Rico's kennel club, which is a recognized kennel club under FCI.
JMO,
Marian
Classy Kennel
I don't care one way or the other whether the Kai ever becomes fully registered with the AKC, but I'd like to correct some facts about the AKC that are a bit skewed in this post. I understand your hatred or disgust against the AKC and that's fine, but in a forum where many individuals are learning about all aspects of dogdom including the AKC, I think factual information should be presented. My information comes from the process we went through with the Swedish Vallhund in first attaining FSS status, then entry into the Miscellaneous classes, then full recognition into the Herding Group.
the Kai will NEVER be registered with AKC. There are some Kai registered with the FSS division of AKC(Foundation Stock Service).
The Kai has already been registered with the AKC via FSS. The North American Kai Association apparently got their name into the AKC as a CLUB and established themselves as the club going forward in favor of recognition, although it does not say that on their website. And curiously, they are using the UKC standard.
This is AKC's way to get all the information, breeder's name and pedigrees and then later if they so choose they can take over the breed and make the next step toward full registration without any agreement with any club or association. They call this a take over.
The AKC is an organization of CLUBS. It does not take over a breed. It CANNOT "make the next step toward full registration without any agreement with any club or association." The CLUB must make that request, based on numbers, distribution, dogs with pedigrees, etc. The AKC will not take over a breed. If anything, the North American Kai Association has taken it upon themselves, right or wrong, to become the "voice" of the Kai, and that's apparently at the heart of the dissension, disagreement, animosity, what have you. In other words, your enemy is not the AKC, but the North American Kai Association which has taken it upon themselves to become the liaison with AKC.
AKC can change the standard as to how they want the breed to look and then you have lost breed type.
The AKC does not change standards. The AKC is an organization of clubs. There is nobody on the AKC board sitting around a table discussing "how they want the breed to look." They get this information from the CLUB that they have an association with. They will provide a template eventually for the standard so that all standards are formatted in the same way, but the individual breed information is still there -- and that information comes from the club. That is the extent of their work with the standard.
The AKC does not lose breed type. Breeders lose breed type.
We had this discussion on the Shikoku list, concerning the advantage a club would have if they got their name into the AKC as a "sponsoring" or "parent" club so that they have the control. The North American Kai Association (NAKA) now has that control. There may be a strong faction of Kai fanciers that will never accept that club, will always remain UKC only, will never register their dogs as Foundation Stock, and that's fine. Please just know that it is now virtually inevitable that the Kai, given the numbers you say are in the U.S., will slowly move towards full AKC recognition IF the NAKA wants to go there. If not, they won't.
Where did you hear about this if it's not on the NAKA website?
*Edit and Add*
I found this info. on the akc website.
"As of July 13, 2009, the AKC Board of Directors approved the eligibility of Foundation Stock breeds that meet the below criteria may compete in AKC Companion Events; this will be effective January 1, 2010.
•Dogs with three-generation pedigrees recorded in FSS®
•Breed Standard has been submitted"
There was not a specific petition from NAKA to have Kai compete. All foundation stock breeds can compete. This isn't a move on the Kai breeders part. I would really watch what and how you say things. You named NAKA as going for this when it's the AKC that changed the rule for everyone. As Marian told you, Kai have be recorded in the Foundation Stock Service since 1997. Nothing more has come from it.
I AM saying that the NAKA will become the voice of the Kai to the AKC, that's all. Marian may be a significant force for all other Kais out there, but this CLUB will be the one that will, if it wishes to, do the work towards taking the steps towards recognition. It doesn't HAVE to; but if it wants to, as a CLUB it will have more influence on the AKC than Marian or any one individual, no matter WHO that person is. Right now the club seems to be very carefully staying away from any wording that suggests "We are working towards AKC recognition in the future" but it's there, quietly in the background, just biding time.
What's happening in January 2010 is that the Kai becomes eligible to participate in Companion Events, defined as obedience, rally, agility and tracking. This is just the first of those steps that will lead the breed ever closer towards AKC recognition, again IF the parent club wishes to do so.
True, the club did not petition the AKC to allow Companion Event status, but once the breed gets out there, gets shown, becomes known, it may not take very long for them to take the next step.
On the other hand, if this club became the AKC liaison as a protective measure to PREVENT further steps towards AKC recognition, that was a very smart move. Yes, they can sit in the FSS program for a very long time and go nowhere, except now people can train the dogs for events if they so choose. Not a bad way to go.... That's an interesting step I had not thought of: to become the club with AKC affiliations, and then never take it any further than that.
What I don't know is whether another club, say one with a very strong interest in become an AKC breed, can establish itself and bump the first club out as the AKC connection.... I don't know whether that's possible or how it would be done.
That's your opinion about a club you know nothing about. This is not a fact.
******You said: The Kai has already been registered with the AKC via FSS. The North American Kai Association apparently got their name into the AKC as a CLUB and established themselves as the club going forward in favor of recognition, although it does not say that on their website. And curiously, they are using the UKC standard.**********
I would like to correct your statement. Actually the NKCA (National Kai Club of America) formed shortly after the importation of the Kai by Mary malone and her members submitted the breed to FSS and the NKCA was the contact club for the Kai. After NAKA contacted FSS, they "somehow" got their contact information and their club listed. Anyone that was a reputable breeder and caretaker of the Kai breed refused to register with FSS again. The caretaking of the breed was going a different way after that. The faster that certain people could get the breed numbers in, the quicker certain people could market the breed for an extreme monetary value. This was not indictive to preserving the small gene pool of the breed. Oh and btw, NAKA is not the only Kai club out there. The very successful FKCA (Foundation Kai Club of America) was formed at the same time as NAKA was and thus the split began.
*******You said: The AKC is an organization of CLUBS. It does not take over a breed. It CANNOT "make the next step toward full registration without any agreement with any club or association." The CLUB must make that request, based on numbers, distribution, dogs with pedigrees, etc. The AKC will not take over a breed. If anything, the North American Kai Association has taken it upon themselves, right or wrong, to become the "voice" of the Kai, and that's apparently at the heart of the dissension, disagreement, animosity, what have you. In other words, your enemy is not the AKC, but the North American Kai Association which has taken it upon themselves to become the liaison with AKC.******
My reply: AKC is not an orginization of clubs, AKC is a record keeper and that is all. Same as UKC, they give a service to people to retain records as a registry. In past history AKC is well know for forging ahead with a take over of registering the breed to full registry without the help and/or okay from the breed clubs. If AKC wants a breed bad enough (which you do as it is always a money maker) they will go ahead with the acquiring of the records and introduce the breed as a fully registered breed that can be shown and bred to the AKC standard. Once done, you can never please everyone and more splits form in the breed, but money is being made from the breed becoming AKC recognized and to many that is what it is all abouyt. Making the breed readily available to anyone for big bucks and breeding and breeding and breeding to make investments back quickly and records attained as quickly as possible. In a few year, the small genepool of a breed has been so corrupted that the breed can not hold on as what it once was. That is the history of many breeds once promoted to high visability. BTW, NAKA did not take it upon themselves to become the liasons, as there was never a discussion, a suggestion, or anything....just all of a sudden a group was representing a breed that they themselves were having a hard time breeding as they had so few Kai amongst them to breed.
****You said: The North American Kai Association (NAKA) now has that control. There may be a strong faction of Kai fanciers that will never accept that club, will always remain UKC only, will never register their dogs as Foundation Stock, and that's fine. Please just know that it is now virtually inevitable that the Kai, given the numbers you say are in the U.S., will slowly move towards full AKC recognition
My response: It is near impossible to make the connections with the very protecting breeders of the Kai. We have worked for many years to get our first few imports from Japan in the last two years with a couple more coming. Only the the dilligence and the connections of a few individuals have we been able to do that. The NAKA breeders have bred themselves into a hole and have nowhere to go with being able to produce more Kai for FSS registrations, so hpw is it going to be possible to get the numbers up in FSS with the Kai Breed? Of the appr. 500 Kai in the U.S. there is fewer then 40 or so that are intact and out of that number the biggest percentage of them are old and not able to produce. I have 18 Kai here and haven't produced a litter in a year and when I do have a litter, the puppies will not be sold intact or registered with FSS. I do know that a lot of the numbers of Kai that are registered with FSS are spayed/neutered pets as NAKA at one point made it mandatory that the stock be reistered with FSS in order to get the numbers up in FSS. Pray tell, what good is those numbers???? Where is the breeding power or promotion of the breed if the breed can not substantiate and breed their breed type?????? Im my personal opnion, I can not phantom AKC/FSS wasting their time with a breed that can not even reproduce themselves for more registration money and promotion with AKC. I also can not imagine that NAKA is trying to promote a breed to AKC recognition that they themselves can not produce or build a future with. There are many contacts out there that are there becuase they requested or petitioned to be there, but that doesn't prove substance of the ability to promote for the future.
As far as the advantage of the Kai being able to participate with AKC in companion events, that option has always been there with their foundation registration UKC. AKC is only offering another avenue to pick up the same titles and guess what...... AKC makes money!!!!!! this still isn't going to make the gene pool larger and the breeding program bigger or better. I prefer to spend my time and spin my wheels with protecting what I have in the breed, promoting the essense of the breed and keeping the gene pool viable for a future in the USA of the Kai.
I feel that even if AKC recognition is inevitable, why rush it. We should take our time and learn and study the experiences and events that has happened to other breeds. The Shikoku breed in and of itself is new to the US (heck, new to North America), and there's so many 'kinks' we need to still work out and resolve. the gene pool is still so small, and once they are pushed to FSS status, it's just gonna limit what we can do.
Marian
Classy Kennel, MI
Thank you for posting some 'kai in the us' history for us. All the Club organizing stuff is over my head- I am merely a companion dog owner. But what I gleaned that is good is that there are new kai coming over to help the gene pool and produce healthy kai, which is good for us who enjoy them!
Marian (with an A), do you feel (somewhat/very/absolutley?) confident there are no mixes happening?
I am fairly confident that no one is breeding Kai cross dogs. Number one anything that leaves my place leave on a spay/neuter contract (with a copy of the vet procedure sent to me for my records) or an open show/breeder contract and that contracts states that you can only breed to purebred Kai only and to intentally or unintentally breed out of the Kai breed, there is a $10,000.00 fine payable to me as well as loss of your Kai to me!!! I just don't think anyone is going to take a chance at losing their Kai over breeding out of the breed. I would hope and I do feel that the other people that were breeding until they bred themselves out, were equally as determined to not let intact Kai out there for anyone to breed to whatever. So I feel pretty good about the limitations of Kai mix happening. I just had a lady drive out to my place the other day. She was absolutely certain that she had rescued and owned a beautiful brindle Kai for years until he passed at 16 years of age. She marveled at all the Kai here and then showed me a picture of her dog that she was sure was a pure Kai. The picture showed a sweet sheperd mix with not one Kai characteristic except he was brindled like a Mal or a cattle dog. As I stated in an earlier post, the Kai was not as protected or as carefully placed, so way back in the early and mid 90's I could see where there would or could have been some misbreedings. But given the age factor, any puppies would be in later years now and not the young "Kai mix" that are being found and rescued. The chances are slim anyway. I do know that the people that I am involved with are not breeding yet and when they do, they will be consulting me for some advice.
Marian
Classy Kennel, MI
The Kai that I mentioned on Petfinder were returned Kai, breeders known. I have a friend with a Shiba and her cousin got a Kai last year from a shelter in NY, breeder known and verified when contacted. It was ofcourse not you Marian. I have seen a few people say that they have full blooded Kai's on forums that were rescues. Not sure. There are also a couple rescues on here.
In Koda's litter, 5 were born. All the males will be neutered. Koda and one of his brothers were neutered on the same day. His other brother is getting neutered in a couple of weeks. The two sisters will be shown and kept in tact. I had the option if I wanted a "show dog" to keep Koda intact, but there was never an agreement that he could ever be bred. He is a companion dog, and I was happy to agree with neutering him. It seems like the community is small enough that we keep in touch one way or another or hear about eachother's dogs in some way. Koda and I are seeing his breeder tomorrow. I'm really excited.
When I first learned of the Kai, it was in 1997 from a man who used to go to the dog park. He was from Japan and brought his Akita Inu and Tora Inu over when he moved to the Bay Area to work in Silicon Valley. That's when I fell in love with Kai and visited Cynthia Hernandez in 1999 looking for one. I think that was a bad time for the Kai in the US. I do think that breeding has become more tight and controlled and am thankful that breeders, whether or not they have always agreed on the direction of the breed, limited the number of intact dogs and got this under control. I salute you Marian for having such a tough contract.
BTW just a little side note, Koda's sister's name is Tora. She won Best Puppy in August. I hope she does that name proud. She's got a lot to live up to.
http://www.bordercollie.org/akc.html#hist
There appear to be books out now on the border collie war.
The pattern to "get" reticient breeds into the AKC was for the AKC to find a small faction to break away from the long-established breed clubs and promote the faction as the parent club. Happened with the Australian Shepherds according to the article, happened with the Jack Russells (now named Parson Russells in the AKC), and I've heard it's starting to happen with the coonhounds. The coonhounds are strong in numbers in the UKC, so they provide a big target in light of flagging AKC registrations/revenue.
So historically, the requirement of nationwide interest doesn't mean that the AKC recognized parent club (ie. the faction club) has to be the one to set-up nationwide interest. Hence the high suspicion in giving the AKC any leeway by giving registration information via FSS. Using FSS is not harmless.
AKC-FSS is also not necessary, IMO, in maintaining records with our modern day computers and programs. I know English Shepherds utilize their own registry and include information that the AKC do not automatically provide on pedigrees. There are ways to input work characteristics and health so it can be better tracked.
Imagine a Nihon Ken customized database with features such as a field that can read/handle Japanese characters so mistaken identities caused by a bad Romanization to English are eliminated. That would have the ability to include titles obtained in different organizations such as Sch and French Ring, qualifications given out such as the Delta Society (therapy dogs), or certificates given out such as ATTS. Or maybe features that state the 10 generation COI of the dog in question, the height and teeth count of the dog (as measured by NIPPO), and the age of the dog at death?
From what I am reading, the AKC is not the culprit. A group of individuals, whether broken off from an original club or not, form a club, the AKC asks the clubs who wants to become the AKC affiliated club, and the one that says yes, is in. That IS what the AKC is all about.
But you are right about the Border Collie -- we can see the difference between the show dog and the working dog even here in Montana. We have a lot of Border Collies (as well as cattle dogs and aussies since this is cattle country more than sheep country), but the show handlers who bring in their show Border Collies have a different breed. Those Border Collies are beautiful but pretty much dead for personality and probably working ability. I've heard they don't herd, even when given the opportunity. Some few breeders are now trying to mix the two lines so that some of the dogs that DO work can also finish championships, but it's a long road.
You would definitely have AKC show breeders breeding for exaggerated physical traits of the Kai or the Shikoku, and not breeding for any working capability, just the opportunity to get those Group wins and eventually Best in Show. I can't argue that point.
Marian said: "It is near impossible to make the connections with the very protecting breeders of the Kai. We have worked for many years to get our first few imports from Japan in the last two years with a couple more coming. Only the the dilligence and the connections of a few individuals have we been able to do that. The NAKA breeders have bred themselves into a hole and have nowhere to go with being able to produce more Kai for FSS registrations...."
I think her point was that the NAKA breeders have failed to establish connections to import new breeding stock and therefore can't register additional dogs with the FSS. And that's part of the point. The AKC will do business with whomever is willing, even if that organization isn't in a position to be effective or responsible stewards of the breed.
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"From what I am reading, the AKC is not the culprit. A group of individuals, whether broken off from an original club or not, form a club, the AKC asks the clubs who wants to become the AKC affiliated club, and the one that says yes, is in. That IS what the AKC is all about."
I don't pretend to have personal knowledge of this, but I read it differently. The AKC IS the culprit here. They want what they want---they want more registrable dogs so they can get more money. Despite a strong breed club's express desires against AKC recognition of any type, the AKC chose to do business with a splinter group (probably knowing full well what they were doing). It's shady business practice if you ask me. It's like the tobacco companies ignoring volumes of research indicating the dangers of cigarettes and choosing instead to recognize the research they funded themselves (that, of course, supports their position that cigarettes aren't conclusively dangerous).
I say no to full registration cause I don't like how AKC is just for show. AKC German Shepherd dogs are beautiful. I love their coats, but I'm sorry, I don't want a dog that is crying out in pain at 2 yrs old cause it has any kind of dysplasia (sp?) and cant enjoy basic dog things, like walking. If I'm getting a dog (be it buying, adopting, pick up from streets, or whatever) I do want a physically sound dog over looks, but looks do matter too.
Now about the Shikoku (they are the ones that look like wolves right), if it is something listed on the AKC site like the Kai's are it could save that dog's life should it ever bit anyone. I'm part of a wolfdog community as I am owned by one (lol) and I can tell you some horror bite stories. The FDA does not recognize the rabies vaccine for wolfdogs,aka wolf-hybrids (they do for dogs and wolves, but not for mixes). There is a story about a dog, cant remember his name, that bit someone one day and was euthanized and had it head sent off for testing even though he was vaccinated and current on his rabies. Obviously the test came back negative for rabies. The dog had an ear infection, the owner didn't know it. someone come over to pet him as they had done many of times and the dog bite them. And cause the owner had made jokes about his dog having wolf in him (despite he looked like a badly breed lab) He lost his pet.
There is also a story about an AKC registered husky that was getting out it's owners yard and killing the neighbor chickens. The neighbor complained about the "wolf" attacking his chickens so they sent a wildlife official out. The official swore up and down it was a wolf and shot and killed him on site. The owner upset that his dog had been killed, was never aware of the dogs escapes. The official later resigned after a huge lawsuit. All cause the owner had papers proving that he had a dog not a wolfdog or wolf.
The point I'm making is if you have something concrete to say "It's not a wolf, its a dog. Here is my proof." It will help should something happen.
More people and places recognize AKC over UKC and other registries. But I'm more incline to get something not AKC over AKC. While looks mean something, personality, function, and soundness mean more to me.
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=120&page=1#Item_36
It's interesting tho, last time I saw this thread months ago, only 5 people were "pro-AKC," now it's jumped up to 16. ~