Geez louise. Now that my logic has been called into question!
Andrea, sorry for hijaking! I'm glad for your reasons and your reasons alone you want a shiba!! I am glad everyday that I made that same decision myself!
Thank you : ) I looked into Miko, and your right, he sounds great! only problem is yes, okiron, we are thinking kids one day would be nice. That makes me a bit nervous and also not knowing if miko has been socialized with cats.
Thank you Edgewood, I looked into the Shikoku, and they sound GREAT too! I had never even heard of that breed, and had a bit of trouble finding some description on them, but I found it and they sound like a good, a bit different, but still a very good fit. Figure first I will spend some time in a meet up for shibas, then see if I can find out more on the Shikoku.
As the owner of a shiba and shikoku and cats, I would have a shiba before I would a shikoku in regards to prey drive. My shikoku passionately chases my cats, is faster than my shiba already, and will be considerably larger than my shiba. We are already working on a cat/discouragement training program.
My shikokus energy levels bypass my shibas by leaps and bounds.
Sorry about the locking jaw thing. But considering that police officers are coming to peoples homes in Denver CO, Central Falls MA, and a number of other cities, taking peoples beloved pets, and euthanizing them, because of continued propegation of false information I get a bit riled up. The fact that I have worked with ACO's who claim to have witnessed the locking jaw phenomenon (lies) and their tall tales are getting pets killed. That I am encountering more and more rescue people who have given up on a breed because of little more than gossip. I am very protective of pit bulls. As a parent of a pit bull and a shiba inu, both of whom I love dearly, I will never get another shiba. I will absolutely get another pit bull.
I had this bookmarked for a year and forgot about it until just now!!
Its from Bali Hai shibas in NY's website ( balihai-shibas.com ):
You could not find a more delightful, life-loving, appealing dog anywhere in the world. Shibas, by and large, are healthy and long-lived and relatively undemanding of their owners. Their size is perfect: not so small that they can be misplaced and sat upon, as could a toy breed, and not so large that an owner can't whisk them into his arms and be on his way. Temperamentally, Shibas are trustworthy and loyal, alert, charismatic and intelligent. Shibas are clean, resourceful and great fun for children. However, no breed of dog is for everyone, and the Shiba is no exception. The Shiba is an independent dog that has a mind that rivals that of the smartest owner and must be handled firmly but lovingly. This is not a dog for the meek! Shibas are intense and serious dogs that can find a way to solve any problem. Yet, in true Japanese style, Shibas are as stubborn as they are independent and smart. Shibas can concentrate on a problem for hours and then work a way out of the dilemma. (Can Shibas think?-don't let them hear you say that!) A Shiba's training must begin as early as six to eight weeks of age. For other breeds, this may be too young, but the Shiba will start to work things out before you do and then convince you that you are doing them wrong. This is why they house break so easily. If you can except this breed for who it is and understand that Shibas need to be walked responsibly on leash or lead this may be the dog for you. Shibas are wonderful loving companion dogs and it's hard to own just one!
so I went to the dog park looking for the man with the shibas today. no luck. When my neighbor (she and her dog joined me) asked people if the shiba guy had come by yet, we got the same response several times. "why do you want a shiba??? can you really put up with that much energy???" People then proceeded to tell me how shibas are WAY to active and how I should really look into getting a ____________ ( <insert their dogs breed here). it was interesting. I can already see im gonna love dog parks......
back I go to the dag park this weekend......maybe I'll get lucky and catch the shiba guy there.......
Thats pretty funny how people were trying to make you get their breed dog. I am actually kind of the opposite. Shiba's are ridiculously cute, so you always hear "I want one!!! They are so cute!" And I usually respond with "yeah, they are really cute looking, but they are definately not a dog for everyone, so I would do some research if you're really interested". Ninja has some fear issues, especially with strangers. So whenever we're in public and people come up to pet Ninja, I always tell them not to touch him because he's scared of strangers. Then they usually ask what kind of breed he is and why he is scared of people. Then I just say that this breed is pretty aloof with strangers, but very loyal to it's owners, but there are a lot of very social shiba's too. Then they wish me luck and tell me again how cute he is and go on with their life.
Anyways - Some dog park people are crazy, just crazy. lol
Jessica - I am not saying that Shikoku's are perfect with cats, certainly at a puppy stage I had to discourage a lot of cat chasing (we have 5 house cats and 11 barn cats - so I have a lot of cats to discourage him from chasing). But as the puppy grows up they do get the idea and learn not to chase cats.
At now 10 months old he is very good with the cats and really doesn't chase them at ALL in the house and only occasionally when the barn cats are in the yard. And because he is very smart and biddable, he can be called off of the cat chasing quite easily now.
I don't know if you got your Shiba as a puppy or not, but certainly Shikoku's can be taught not to chase cats (I am living proof of it and I know that Peggy also has exposed her Shikoku's to cats and there is even a photo of a Shikoku and cat on her website). And both Katja and Peggy said that Shikoku's can live fine with cats (they actually are no worse than my Siberians were as puppies with cats).
And your Himiko is still a young puppy (probably only 3 months old now), so I am sure she will get better and learn not to chase cats.
Kris, I agree that they indeed are trainable. However I would also point out that is it much easier to train a single dog to not chase, than multiple dogs. All rules change once you have more than 2 dogs, especially 3 prey driven animals. At that point you are dealing with a pack. Training can only trump natural instinct so much.
Miko is nearly 4 months and indeed is a receptive student, but if someone were to ask which is less likely to chase (and harm) cats I will comfortably stand by my earlier statement and say I would take a shiba over shikoku in that contest. Once Miko is older I agree she will be better, but she will be larger than a shiba. But even some of the best trained dogs can forget everything when their instinct kicks in.
Personally my shikoku is 1000 times easier to train in obedience than Moto. She is leaps and bounds easier, but she is a primitive breed, with a high prey drive, and I respect that enough to minimize the temptation wherever possible. Meaning they are kept seperated when ever it isn't a controlled environment.
I wouldn't trade her for the world (ask me the same question whe she is having a sudden burst of energy at bedtime HA).Nor would I trade my shiba (most of the time). But there are too many shibas in rescue groups (from people thinking they want a shiba and not sufficently understanding they are not getting a typical dog), for me to not feel compelled to share my negative experience as much if not more than the good. There is a tremendous amount of commitment neccessary when you become a parent of one of these dogs, WAY more then more "domestic" breeds. Kuma certainly would feel like a breeze for you, considering you have been parent to multiple Siberians (which as you know are dogs best suited to commited owners such as yourself). But to people who have not lived with primitive dogs, a shikoku or shiba could be quite a wake up call.
"Kuma certainly would feel like a breeze for you, considering you have been parent to multiple Siberians "
Point taken and you are very correct in that regard. I forget that the only dogs I owned prior to Shikokus were Siberians and so, to me, it was a natural switch and Shikokus are much easier. My experience with non primative breeds has not been as an owner; only as an acquantance to those "domestic" dogs. So you are right, to me, Shikokus seem like a breeze because they are much more biddable than Siberians (in general). :-)
And yes, I certainly think it is harder with a "pack" vs a single dog. Right now I only have one, but I did have 3 Sibes at one time and you are right about them egging each other along.
its a little harder finding info on the Shikokus. Being owners of both shibas and Shikokus, could anyone of you please help me out in explaining the differences?
Shikoku are about 10-15lbs larger than shibas. They are more eager to please than shibas. Shibas are trouble makers. You will have a hard time finding a better resource than this forum for shikoku info. The only 2 breeders of shikoku in north america belong to this group. Both are are very nice and breed beautiful dogs. Kris (who is Edgewood) got hers from Peggy. Brad, Dorothy, Heidi, and I al have shikoku from Katja. There are other members with shikoku this is all just off the top of my head. I know Jen started a thread asking owners to list the pros and cons of having the breed. As I have been told there are fewer than 400 shikoku in the world.
I actually met a woman the other day. She saw Miko and asked what kind of dog she was. I told her she was a shikoku, and her face lit up. "I have always wanted to see one in person, and never thought I would!" Apparently she breeds Canaan Dogs.
I have Shikoku-Ken (2), Kai-Ken (1), Akita Inu (2), and Shiba Inu (2) and I can tell you, without even the slightest hesitation, that Shiba are the most difficult of the breeds we own.
- Akita Inu take tons of patience, but are generally responsive if they trust you - tho they can show some hardheadedness that can be frustrating [and endearing at the same time].
- Shikoku-Ken are the most responsive of the breeds we have and are easy to train but they posses a relentlessness that can drive you mad, and they bore very easily.
- Kai-Ken appear to be more hardheaded than Akita Inu, and have a lot of the primitive traits that Shikoku-Ken have which makes them frustrating. Kai take a lot of patience also [and earplugs].
- Shiba Inu are very high energy, very high maintenance [compared to the other Nihon-Ken], they are the quickest to start a fight and have the largest attitudes. Shiba, imo, are pretty easy to train to do basic commands but anything past that requires the patience of a saint and having to act like a clown. They are picky about food, where they potty, where they sleep, where they walk, how you interact with them... they are basically difficult. Having said that, when they love you - they REALLY love you... our Shiba can be the sweetest little buddies.
I think Shiba are an acquired taste. Shiba are pretty different from the other Nihon-Ken [in personality], maybe even the most different from a personality standpoint.
There is a quote from the book "Japanese Dogs: Akita, Shiba, and Other Breeds" that, imo, sums up a Shiba vs. an Akita perfectly [you can replace the "Akita" part with Shikoku]:
"When Akita are kenneled together with Shiba, the Shiba need to be taken for walks or given their food first and the Akita can be left till later. Shiba are very self-willed and assertive, and will whine and make a fuss otherwise. Akita, on the other hand, will wait their turn quietly."
The shikoku sound like a great dog. I guess if I'm in it for lots of training anyhow, thraining them not to chase the cats should come along with that. The one thing that worries me is the "getting bored easily". The shiba's independance is one of the main reasons I am attracted to them, and I worry that a shikoku may not do to well while Jeremy and I are at work. Any one out there have experience with leaving shikoku for long periods of time?
I agree totally with what Brad said about the various Nihonken (although I have never owned an Akita or Shiba, I have known several). I like how Brad described them as an acquired taste (and probably not the dog for me personally).
I don't think that my Shikoku is easily bored, or at least I wouldn't describe him that way. Maybe Brad can elaborate on what he was saying and then I might agree ;-).
My Shikoku is super quiet in the house and either sleeps or plays quietly (as he is doing right now) when I am home. Both Brad and I work from home, so I am sure that we don't leave them as much as others who have to go to work. Brad's Shikoku have other dogs for companions. I put my Shikoku in a kennel (about 10 x 10) when I leave and he has lots of bones and toys to play with. He yipes a bit as I leave and when I come home, but I know he doesn't do it continuously. I have left him for 8 hour days before and he is fine (maybe not totally happy, but okay). As with any younger dog, you will probably need to kennel them when you leave (same with a Shiba). As they get older, they may be able to be left loose in the house.
I find my Shikoku extremely loyal and loving and just a super fun dog to have around. I am really glad that I got one and I do prefer him to the Siberians I had before (which were more independent, like Shibas). You say that you worry about the "independence", I am not sure that will make it any easier for a Shiba to be left vs a Shikoku (especially as a young dog). But "independence" usually does mean a bit harder to train (and you often can only train using + reinforcement).
wow - a 10x10 kennel? That's nice, and large! Is it outside or inside?
We are getting ready for phase two of our fence project and will have 2 10x12 kennels installed for the the bigger dogs to enjoy their raw bones in. I'm stoked!
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As for Shikoku-Ken getting bored easily, I'll give two examples:
- We have Loa in obedience training right now, when we are there sometimes we do this thing where the trainer goes around the "room" [it's outside] and has each person do something with their dog. With Loa, and we experienced this with Ahi too, she does the task fine but then starts to act up as the trainer get about halfway around the room... its like she gets bored waiting for her turn, so we are constantly having to give her commands in order to keep her in the "zone". Also if we have to do a series of commands, like "watch me" or "down" she will do it about 8 times and then she checks out and stops listening... she is bored and has learned the command and ready to move on. Our Akita and Kai do not bore this quickly.
- Last night all the pups were asleep... laying around my desk in the office. Except little Loa... she was pawing at everyone and jumping on them. They had all been outside - all day - running and playing, and Lao is older than Lani & Kona [so should have less energy]... yet she was still up wanting to play. She was bored - the other were not - but she was.
That is two examples, Loa is less quick to bore than Ahi was as a pup.
When we lived in ATL tho Ahi stayed at home alone for 6 hours or so during the day, and she was very good. Actually, our Shikas are really good inside, it wasn't till we moved to NM that they started getting crazy in the house, and that could have been controlled if we had stopped it - we just didn't mind it.
Our Shikas don't chew anything they shouldn't [except maybe tp], they sleep in their crates pretty quietly, they don't really whine much [tho Ahi makes other noises]. I mean really, they are great dogs.
Shikas just need more mental exercise during the day then a lab or something like that - that is all I mean.
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Having said all I just said, I just want to point out that Kris has a good amount of experience training horses and dogs, so she probably can gage the train-ability of an animal better than me... but that also might mean she finds it a little easier to do that me - I am not a super proficient trainer. )
Ah, thanks Brad for the nice comments. I have been training animals all my life, so I hope that I have become a good trainer. I am sure that I still make mistakes sometimes though ;-).
Those are good examples for how they can get bored.
I will say that Kuma does like to play a lot and therefore I have a lot of different toys for him (since there are no other dogs currently in my home). And he does have one cat that likes to initiate play with him (and he is very gentle with the cat and if we feel he needs to be more gentle, we just remind him and he listens and plays more suitably with the cat, usually by using his paws instead of his mouth).
I support Brad's comment that Shikokus don't chew - mine never chews anything inappropriate.
I do think that they need mental exercise (ie, training and games). And it cannot be too repititious. And Brad I can see your point about Loa in a large obedience class. I find they they often (the trainers) move too slowly and that the dog gets bored waiting. So while I wait my turn, I quietly ask him to do other activities (sit, down, stand, etc) so that he stays engaged - I really don't care if others are just standing around as long as I am not bothering their dog and am doing it quietly. The higher you go up in obedience, the easier it is because the classes are smaller and therefore you have more time to vary what you are doing and keep the dog engaged. Also, since our Shikoku's are both still young, doing varied things and keeping the training sessions short helps keep them motivated. But how large obedience classes are designed for basic novice lessons can be problematic for a smart and intelligent and high energy dog like a Shika.
Oh, and my kennel is a stall in my horse barn which is unbedded (concrete covered with rubber mats) and is actually 10x12 and is close to the big roll doors so he can get the breeze when it is nice out. The luxury of having extra stalls in a horse barn.
It's funny, dealing with shibas my whole life I never thought of them as difficult dogs. Troublemakers? Sure, of course but not overly difficult as I see them now. They are the golden retrievers of Japan after all, no family with 2.5 kids is complete without them.
honestly? of all your dogs, Brad, Shibas are the most difficult? I wouldn't have thought that! Does Jen think so too?
I think I can say with total honesty that of all the dogs I've owned/fostered, they are the most independent *thinkers* and therefore can be tireless troublemakers and they are indeed difficult to level with and train, but they are very smart so training isn't difficult in that respect. But once they respect you and love you with all their little bodies have got - my scale is tipped in their favor.
The more I'm on this forum the more i'm convinced that at some point in my life I must own a Kai Ken.
You are soooo right Ryu! my head is reeling !!!!
Of course I immediately looked up all past forums, bredder sites, and info sites on the Shikoku. WOW.
Now THIS makes things tough......(deep breath). I went and told Jeremy all about them, and now he is even kinda "stuck" on what to think. We both need to look into BOTH breeds more.
here are some of my thoughts on Shikoku:
little bigger than shiba- I like
bonds to one owner more than the other- I would be sad for either of us
less "willfull"/easier to train - I like
calmer in the home - I like
just as energetic outside as shiba- same either way
more prey drive - little nervous about (but im sure training will help??)
more affectionate - I like
wow, I'm sure there is more, but my head hurts.
Remember how I said I am indecisive???? This doesnt help!
So does anyone on this forum live in California? I am in Northern Cali, but have family I will be visiting in Southern Cali next month. If there is anyone out here, I was hoping they wouldnt mind meeting up sometime so I can maybe meet one or both of these breeds.
Brada- did you say you currently live in NM (like New Mexico?) If so, where? Jeremy's mom lives out there.....
I agree with Brad about shibas completely. I would die for Moto but he will be my last shiba. I could see myself with another shikoku, but I Miko is my last breeder dog. I just feel better rescuing. Not to mention I am so not a puppy person.
I work with dogs constantly and severely abused troubled dogs, and they all are easier than the shibas I know.
As far as leaving them alone for extended periods, I am never away from them for more than 3 or 4 hours, and if I am I hire a sitter.
really? OC/LA area. thats exactly where my family is! Im visiting my parents in Huntington beach (OC but northern part), for a day or 2 next month, before heading to Santa Barbara for my lil sis' college graduation. If I had a chance to meet a shikoku that would be GREAT!!!! that's probibly very rare to meet one prior to owning....
sorry... I guess its southern to me. I lived in Santa Margarita/Mission Viejo (OC) previously, which is quite a bit south from Huntington Beach. I rarely traveled above HB, so I guess its the must Northern part of OC that I know : ) Thank you for correcting : )
Jessica - what are the fundamental differences in adult Moto to young Miko? How young did you get Moto? In all honesty - I was sort of convinced that Shikokus are just bigger Shibas, with similar levels of stubborness, trainability, loyalty, adaptability and energy..
Comments
Andrea, sorry for hijaking! I'm glad for your reasons and your reasons alone you want a shiba!! I am glad everyday that I made that same decision myself!
Thank you Edgewood, I looked into the Shikoku, and they sound GREAT too! I had never even heard of that breed, and had a bit of trouble finding some description on them, but I found it and they sound like a good, a bit different, but still a very good fit. Figure first I will spend some time in a meet up for shibas, then see if I can find out more on the Shikoku.
My shikokus energy levels bypass my shibas by leaps and bounds.
Sorry about the locking jaw thing. But considering that police officers are coming to peoples homes in Denver CO, Central Falls MA, and a number of other cities, taking peoples beloved pets, and euthanizing them, because of continued propegation of false information I get a bit riled up. The fact that I have worked with ACO's who claim to have witnessed the locking jaw phenomenon (lies) and their tall tales are getting pets killed. That I am encountering more and more rescue people who have given up on a breed because of little more than gossip. I am very protective of pit bulls. As a parent of a pit bull and a shiba inu, both of whom I love dearly, I will never get another shiba. I will absolutely get another pit bull.
Sorry, Andrea.. I promise! no more hijaking!!
Its from Bali Hai shibas in NY's website ( balihai-shibas.com ):
You could not find a more delightful, life-loving, appealing dog anywhere in the world. Shibas, by and large, are healthy and long-lived and relatively undemanding of their owners. Their size is perfect: not so small that they can be misplaced and sat upon, as could a toy breed, and not so large that an owner can't whisk them into his arms and be on his way. Temperamentally, Shibas are trustworthy and loyal, alert, charismatic and intelligent. Shibas are clean, resourceful and great fun for children. However, no breed of dog is for everyone, and the Shiba is no exception. The Shiba is an independent dog that has a mind that rivals that of the smartest owner and must be handled firmly but lovingly. This is not a dog for the meek! Shibas are intense and serious dogs that can find a way to solve any problem. Yet, in true Japanese style, Shibas are as stubborn as they are independent and smart. Shibas can concentrate on a problem for hours and then work a way out of the dilemma. (Can Shibas think?-don't let them hear you say that!) A Shiba's training must begin as early as six to eight weeks of age. For other breeds, this may be too young, but the Shiba will start to work things out before you do and then convince you that you are doing them wrong. This is why they house break so easily. If you can except this breed for who it is and understand that Shibas need to be walked responsibly on leash or lead this may be the dog for you. Shibas are wonderful loving companion dogs and it's hard to own just one!
http://www.shibarescue.org/index_main.html
I like Sam:
http://shibarescue.org/national/sam/sam.html
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back I go to the dag park this weekend......maybe I'll get lucky and catch the shiba guy there.......
Anyways - Some dog park people are crazy, just crazy. lol
At now 10 months old he is very good with the cats and really doesn't chase them at ALL in the house and only occasionally when the barn cats are in the yard. And because he is very smart and biddable, he can be called off of the cat chasing quite easily now.
I don't know if you got your Shiba as a puppy or not, but certainly Shikoku's can be taught not to chase cats (I am living proof of it and I know that Peggy also has exposed her Shikoku's to cats and there is even a photo of a Shikoku and cat on her website). And both Katja and Peggy said that Shikoku's can live fine with cats (they actually are no worse than my Siberians were as puppies with cats).
And your Himiko is still a young puppy (probably only 3 months old now), so I am sure she will get better and learn not to chase cats.
Miko is nearly 4 months and indeed is a receptive student, but if someone were to ask which is less likely to chase (and harm) cats I will comfortably stand by my earlier statement and say I would take a shiba over shikoku in that contest. Once Miko is older I agree she will be better, but she will be larger than a shiba. But even some of the best trained dogs can forget everything when their instinct kicks in.
Personally my shikoku is 1000 times easier to train in obedience than Moto. She is leaps and bounds easier, but she is a primitive breed, with a high prey drive, and I respect that enough to minimize the temptation wherever possible. Meaning they are kept seperated when ever it isn't a controlled environment.
I wouldn't trade her for the world (ask me the same question whe she is having a sudden burst of energy at bedtime HA).Nor would I trade my shiba (most of the time). But there are too many shibas in rescue groups (from people thinking they want a shiba and not sufficently understanding they are not getting a typical dog), for me to not feel compelled to share my negative experience as much if not more than the good. There is a tremendous amount of commitment neccessary when you become a parent of one of these dogs, WAY more then more "domestic" breeds. Kuma certainly would feel like a breeze for you, considering you have been parent to multiple Siberians (which as you know are dogs best suited to commited owners such as yourself). But to people who have not lived with primitive dogs, a shikoku or shiba could be quite a wake up call.
Point taken and you are very correct in that regard. I forget that the only dogs I owned prior to Shikokus were Siberians and so, to me, it was a natural switch and Shikokus are much easier. My experience with non primative breeds has not been as an owner; only as an acquantance to those "domestic" dogs. So you are right, to me, Shikokus seem like a breeze because they are much more biddable than Siberians (in general). :-)
And yes, I certainly think it is harder with a "pack" vs a single dog. Right now I only have one, but I did have 3 Sibes at one time and you are right about them egging each other along.
You will have a hard time finding a better resource than this forum for shikoku info. The only 2 breeders of shikoku in north america belong to this group. Both are are very nice and breed beautiful dogs. Kris (who is Edgewood) got hers from Peggy. Brad, Dorothy, Heidi, and I al have shikoku from Katja. There are other members with shikoku this is all just off the top of my head. I know Jen started a thread asking owners to list the pros and cons of having the breed. As I have been told there are fewer than 400 shikoku in the world.
I actually met a woman the other day. She saw Miko and asked what kind of dog she was. I told her she was a shikoku, and her face lit up. "I have always wanted to see one in person, and never thought I would!" Apparently she breeds Canaan Dogs.
- Akita Inu take tons of patience, but are generally responsive if they trust you - tho they can show some hardheadedness that can be frustrating [and endearing at the same time].
- Shikoku-Ken are the most responsive of the breeds we have and are easy to train but they posses a relentlessness that can drive you mad, and they bore very easily.
- Kai-Ken appear to be more hardheaded than Akita Inu, and have a lot of the primitive traits that Shikoku-Ken have which makes them frustrating. Kai take a lot of patience also [and earplugs].
- Shiba Inu are very high energy, very high maintenance [compared to the other Nihon-Ken], they are the quickest to start a fight and have the largest attitudes. Shiba, imo, are pretty easy to train to do basic commands but anything past that requires the patience of a saint and having to act like a clown. They are picky about food, where they potty, where they sleep, where they walk, how you interact with them... they are basically difficult. Having said that, when they love you - they REALLY love you... our Shiba can be the sweetest little buddies.
I think Shiba are an acquired taste. Shiba are pretty different from the other Nihon-Ken [in personality], maybe even the most different from a personality standpoint.
There is a quote from the book "Japanese Dogs: Akita, Shiba, and Other Breeds" that, imo, sums up a Shiba vs. an Akita perfectly [you can replace the "Akita" part with Shikoku]:
"When Akita are kenneled together with Shiba, the Shiba need to be taken for walks or given their food first and the Akita can be left till later. Shiba are very self-willed and assertive, and will whine and make a fuss otherwise. Akita, on the other hand, will wait their turn quietly."
That's my opinion anyway.
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I don't think that my Shikoku is easily bored, or at least I wouldn't describe him that way. Maybe Brad can elaborate on what he was saying and then I might agree ;-).
My Shikoku is super quiet in the house and either sleeps or plays quietly (as he is doing right now) when I am home. Both Brad and I work from home, so I am sure that we don't leave them as much as others who have to go to work. Brad's Shikoku have other dogs for companions. I put my Shikoku in a kennel (about 10 x 10) when I leave and he has lots of bones and toys to play with. He yipes a bit as I leave and when I come home, but I know he doesn't do it continuously. I have left him for 8 hour days before and he is fine (maybe not totally happy, but okay). As with any younger dog, you will probably need to kennel them when you leave (same with a Shiba). As they get older, they may be able to be left loose in the house.
I find my Shikoku extremely loyal and loving and just a super fun dog to have around. I am really glad that I got one and I do prefer him to the Siberians I had before (which were more independent, like Shibas). You say that you worry about the "independence", I am not sure that will make it any easier for a Shiba to be left vs a Shikoku (especially as a young dog). But "independence" usually does mean a bit harder to train (and you often can only train using + reinforcement).
I can only imagine how andreamg4's head is reeling :-)
We are getting ready for phase two of our fence project and will have 2 10x12 kennels installed for the the bigger dogs to enjoy their raw bones in. I'm stoked!
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As for Shikoku-Ken getting bored easily, I'll give two examples:
- We have Loa in obedience training right now, when we are there sometimes we do this thing where the trainer goes around the "room" [it's outside] and has each person do something with their dog. With Loa, and we experienced this with Ahi too, she does the task fine but then starts to act up as the trainer get about halfway around the room... its like she gets bored waiting for her turn, so we are constantly having to give her commands in order to keep her in the "zone". Also if we have to do a series of commands, like "watch me" or "down" she will do it about 8 times and then she checks out and stops listening... she is bored and has learned the command and ready to move on. Our Akita and Kai do not bore this quickly.
- Last night all the pups were asleep... laying around my desk in the office. Except little Loa... she was pawing at everyone and jumping on them. They had all been outside - all day - running and playing, and Lao is older than Lani & Kona [so should have less energy]... yet she was still up wanting to play. She was bored - the other were not - but she was.
That is two examples, Loa is less quick to bore than Ahi was as a pup.
When we lived in ATL tho Ahi stayed at home alone for 6 hours or so during the day, and she was very good. Actually, our Shikas are really good inside, it wasn't till we moved to NM that they started getting crazy in the house, and that could have been controlled if we had stopped it - we just didn't mind it.
Our Shikas don't chew anything they shouldn't [except maybe tp], they sleep in their crates pretty quietly, they don't really whine much [tho Ahi makes other noises]. I mean really, they are great dogs.
Shikas just need more mental exercise during the day then a lab or something like that - that is all I mean.
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Having said all I just said, I just want to point out that Kris has a good amount of experience training horses and dogs, so she probably can gage the train-ability of an animal better than me... but that also might mean she finds it a little easier to do that me - I am not a super proficient trainer.
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Those are good examples for how they can get bored.
I will say that Kuma does like to play a lot and therefore I have a lot of different toys for him (since there are no other dogs currently in my home). And he does have one cat that likes to initiate play with him (and he is very gentle with the cat and if we feel he needs to be more gentle, we just remind him and he listens and plays more suitably with the cat, usually by using his paws instead of his mouth).
I support Brad's comment that Shikokus don't chew - mine never chews anything inappropriate.
I do think that they need mental exercise (ie, training and games). And it cannot be too repititious. And Brad I can see your point about Loa in a large obedience class. I find they they often (the trainers) move too slowly and that the dog gets bored waiting. So while I wait my turn, I quietly ask him to do other activities (sit, down, stand, etc) so that he stays engaged - I really don't care if others are just standing around as long as I am not bothering their dog and am doing it quietly. The higher you go up in obedience, the easier it is because the classes are smaller and therefore you have more time to vary what you are doing and keep the dog engaged. Also, since our Shikoku's are both still young, doing varied things and keeping the training sessions short helps keep them motivated. But how large obedience classes are designed for basic novice lessons can be problematic for a smart and intelligent and high energy dog like a Shika.
Oh, and my kennel is a stall in my horse barn which is unbedded (concrete covered with rubber mats) and is actually 10x12 and is close to the big roll doors so he can get the breeze when it is nice out. The luxury of having extra stalls in a horse barn.
I wouldn't have thought that! Does Jen think so too?
I think I can say with total honesty that of all the dogs I've owned/fostered, they are the most independent *thinkers* and therefore can be tireless troublemakers and they are indeed difficult to level with and train, but they are very smart so training isn't difficult in that respect. But once they respect you and love you with all their little bodies have got - my scale is tipped in their favor.
The more I'm on this forum the more i'm convinced that at some point in my life I must own a Kai Ken.
But check out these topics if you are considering a Shikoku or Kai, thats why I made them, to get a better view on owning one..
Shikoku http://www.nihonken.org/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1135&page=1#Item_6
Kai http://www.nihonken.org/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1134&page=1#Item_16
Of course I immediately looked up all past forums, bredder sites, and info sites on the Shikoku. WOW.
Now THIS makes things tough......(deep breath). I went and told Jeremy all about them, and now he is even kinda "stuck" on what to think. We both need to look into BOTH breeds more.
here are some of my thoughts on Shikoku:
little bigger than shiba- I like
bonds to one owner more than the other- I would be sad for either of us
less "willfull"/easier to train - I like
calmer in the home - I like
just as energetic outside as shiba- same either way
more prey drive - little nervous about (but im sure training will help??)
more affectionate - I like
wow, I'm sure there is more, but my head hurts.
Remember how I said I am indecisive???? This doesnt help!
So does anyone on this forum live in California? I am in Northern Cali, but have family I will be visiting in Southern Cali next month. If there is anyone out here, I was hoping they wouldnt mind meeting up sometime so I can maybe meet one or both of these breeds.
Brada- did you say you currently live in NM (like New Mexico?) If so, where? Jeremy's mom lives out there.....
I work with dogs constantly and severely abused troubled dogs, and they all are easier than the shibas I know.
As far as leaving them alone for extended periods, I am never away from them for more than 3 or 4 hours, and if I am I hire a sitter.
In all honesty - I was sort of convinced that Shikokus are just bigger Shibas, with similar levels of stubborness, trainability, loyalty, adaptability and energy..