Devasted! Jake Failed...

edited June 2008 in General
I take Jake to a new potential doggie day camp. They require a 'temperment test' before admission.

The owner seemed quite knowledgable about Shibas and the keen senses of this primative breed. I felt really good all this was taking place.

We go inside an enclosed room about 20'x20'. First, she tries to get Jake to come to her and he got only so close. Second she walked over to me to see Jake's reaction and he was right there, circling us. She said 'he's protecting you.' He is the pack leader.

Next, a handler came in and took Jake by the lead. There was definite struggle and Jake attempted to get away from him and back over to me. I was told this was not for his protection, but he was trying to get back over to me to protect me. Jake finally appeared to submit a little and I suppose it was time for the next phase of testing. Before the handler went out to get another dog, he said "he's very dominant". I wasn't allowed to leave the room. The handler brought in a larger female on lead, everything went fine. "She senses his dominance" as she lies down in submission. Then the handler let in a male puppy, off lead, and Jake immediately went for him.

The owner said "I'm sorry Ma'm". Jake fails. You either need to spend $500 on good quality training or give him away to someone who lives on a farm. Later, you won't be able to walk him outside and he allow anyone to approach you.

I am just devastated. Should I be? I mean, we knew the temperments of the Shiba when we decided on the breed, right? Does this really mean Jake is a bad dog or does it mean I accept this as his nature and act accordingly. Do I spent the $ to help me with the dominance issues or can it be cured? Am I the wrong handler for a Shiba?
«1

Comments

  • edited November -1
    LJ, can you call me pls.
  • edited November -1
    But, Jake submits to Jazz??

    Have you & Jake done any puppy training classes - just the basics, like manners?
  • edited November -1
    Yes, he does submit to Jazz. Thank you LJ.

    We attempted manners class once but there were too many dogs in the class and I couldn't concentrate, much less Jake at 6 months. This owner felt he needed much much more, like Ceasar, a behaviorist I suppose
  • edited November -1
    Plus, I gotta say, it was an incident where the puppy got in Jake's face. No Shiba likes that. We all know that.
  • edited November -1
    ... I think those people doesn't know as much about Shibas as they claim to be. Even my Toby doesn't have good recall at all, and barely comes to anyone, including strangers. Obviously your Shiba will act totally different in an environment unfamiliar to him.

    I'm sorry that he failed. :(
  • edited November -1
    I second what Steph said, although Shibas are just dogs, they have a set of characterisitics all their own, they obviously aren't going to react to certain stressors as maybe a beagle or lab would, and being in an enclosed space like that would make any dog nervous but some dogs would still 'pass' their test I guess, but shibas probably not.
    Its probably for the best, it sounds like they wouldn't have the resources to be able to handle him anyway!! Better he is safe at home than sorry with them!

    And I don't think you need to give him to anyone, especially someone on a farm unless they want all their chickens dead!!
    You know your Jake, and you love your Jake, he's just fine. But LJ is right - maybe you can find an obedience class to push that social aspect again, or hire a behaviorist to smooth out his quirks, but I think Jake is just a normal shiba inu - something that regular dog-owning-society doesn't really understand!
  • edited November -1
    Thank you all. You're all right, realizing I don't know any Shiba that could have passed that test, created for beagles, labs and other predominantly submissive breeds. It was a lot of stressors put on him in a short timeframe. And, Jake has never liked dogs getting in his face. I haven't met a Shiba that does.

    I do believe I can control my dog but I also agree I need to get a better handle on him and his little protective instinct, which allows him that pack leader status. I will work on that. I just never cared if he went out the door first, but perhaps I need to change that. I never cared if he went ahead of me on walks, maybe I should change that. What else makes a pack leader?
  • edited November -1
    Sorry he failed Elaine. This was at Happy Paws right? That place is really hard to get in to. They've been closed to new clients for months.
  • edited November -1
    Yes, it was. They have openings now.
  • edited November -1
    Elaine - Jazz is in classes at Lawrenceville Kennel Club - I waited on classes there because the trainer does therapy dog testing and I wanted to go through her training classes. 8 weeks - $80. The first night, we met without our dogs, talk about the program, etc. There were 2 classes being offered - one at 7, one at 8 - we basically got to pick our class - I waited to see which class had the most people and chose the other one.This past Thursday was the first one with our dogs. The trainer recommended getting there early to let our dog get used to area. The kennel club has a whole building, so I think there are less stressors than some of the store training like PetSmart, etc. We hae 7 dogs in our class. While I didn't care as much about Jazz being on my left or even the door thing, I do want Jazz to learn the stand command (for vets), leave it, and stuff like that. I am also hoping that she will lesson her immediate dislike of other dogs by having this constant "safe" interaction. You may want to look for a training class, but do the checking on class size and location - the less distractions the better, I think - at least in the case of a shiba.
  • edited November -1
    I took Toby to a puppy class at Petco when he was 10 weeks old or so, and the trainer was good, but was not very educated on Shibas. I only took the class to socialize him, though. We had a very small area to train, there was 6 of us. If I didn't take him there, he probably wouldn't be so good with other dogs. Hes amazing with other dogs, he just has a little problem with sharing the water bowl at the dog park -- which is expected. He thinks everyone's water is his.
  • edited November -1
    First off I would suggest take your dog for training.
    In the members section in resources and books section I placed a link to “Truly dog Friendly”. Hopefully you will be able to find a trainer in your vicinity from the drop down menu. I know there are some good folks on that list.

    Second, I would not be devastated, at least you got your dog out of there, fast!! Whoever evaluated is completely unprofessional. It is one thing to decline your dog quite another to suggest that anyone would need to send a dog to “go live on a farm” aka “put to sleep” down the road in the future.

    Third, don’t get hooked on over used terms such pack leader, dominance, submitting. These are all inflated words for behavior that varies and is relative in any given situation or pack structure. You will need to get a management plan from the sounds of it since Jake is weak in his social skills outside of his territory.

    Its sounds like what he exhibits is fear aggression and not protection. Protecting you sounds like a load of c***p. Dogs will gravitate to what they are familiar with. If you are all he knows in the new environment that is what he will go to, particularly if not a lot socialization work was done early on, outside of the familiar . I don’t know about the part of female noticing “dominance”. Most likely the other dog was trying to covey calming signals since Jake was stressed or behaving aggressively unsocial. Usually a dog will pick fight or alternatively flight if not able to cope. Jake selected fight.

    Fourth, yes some of the “spitzy” dogs do not socialize well with other dogs or adjust to new situations quickly. Quite a few will never adjust to dogs or doggie day care unless socialized very early as pups to do so. Sorry to say not many people know a lot about Shiba/Jindo/Akita/chow behavior and there are many misconceptions on how to deal with undesirable responses.

    Fifth, since Jake has not completed basic obedience or puppy social classes early on in life then you are going to need to work on things asap so that you have some control in the future. Generally for all dogs it is now standard theory to get to a center BEFORE 6 months of age. The social window for teaching dogs how to live with others or meet others nicely is from birth to 16 weeks of age. After that as the window closes it is much harder. You will have to work at it but may not be impossible yet.

    FYI: Most dogs are unable to concentrate on their first visits at training no matter when you begin. The important thing is having enough room at the center and that the trainer is highly qualified with no bias toward you "spitzy" breed.

    Good luck and don’t give up.
    Snf
  • edited November -1
    Great comments, snf! Here's that website for you, Elaine: http://www.trulydogfriendly.com/blog/?page_id=4

    BTW, I've heard good things about Brumbelow - she's the first on the list for GA - she's listed for Atlanta, but I'm thinking she's closer to Marietta.
  • edited June 2008
    Thank you so much SNF for your thoughtful response and needed suggestions.

    I was speaking to my neighbor and he said 'trade him in for a submissive dog'. I responded, he's not a baseball card. Geez. Maybe I should put that down under the Idiot Discussion.

    Anyway, I think I will have him evaluated by a professional but most likely he is a typical Shiba Inu and why would I want to change that? I think he's had loads of socialization after I got him at 4.5 months -- doggie parks, meetups, PetSmart daycamp, neighbors homes, walks down by the river...
  • edited November -1
    Truly Dog Friendly is a great resource SNF. Thanks again!
  • edited November -1
    HA. I just spoke with a Shiba breeder of 25 years in Arizona. "If he was an aggressive dog, that puppy would be dead", while assuring me that lady has no first hand knowledge of Shibas and I should be glad he failed. Dang, why do I listen to people and let them upset me. I've got to stop listening to Stupid people and allowing them to misguide me.
  • edited November -1
    That sux! I'm sorry to hear that... don't take it personally tho - Ahi was kicked out of daycare once - she lived. :o)

    ----
  • edited November -1
    I'm not an animal trainer, but I think that place wasn't the best judge of your dog. What professional training do they have in canine behavior? Behavior - not obedience.

    Different breeds can be predispositioned to certain stimulus. Seems most of the Japanese breeds are what I call dog reactive. Notice I didn't say aggressive. None of them are fond of dogs in their face. Even if they don't 'go' for the other dog, have you ever notice ANY breed of dog and how they deal with another dog or person in their face? Even a lab will tense, or stop panting (close their mouths) ears may go slightly foward, their stance shifts to their front legs, etc. Those are all signs of stress and the dog ay react - he's already clearly telling the offender the action isn't welcome. The puppy, depending on age, was also acting dominantly - by greeting another dog head-on. I forget at what age pups don't naturally do that without making a statement about their personality.

    Do I disagree that he's dominant? No, he could be. So what? Did he try to bite people? Can you easily control him? Farm? $500? I think you're better off without this place.
  • RyuRyu
    edited November -1
    I agree with Michelle - you're much better off. The first daycare we tried didn't work out for us either - and I'm glad because I wouldn't want them "training" him without knowledge of the Shiba breed. Good riddance, I say! :-)
  • edited November -1
    Thanks so much to all!

    I'm over it and realize and fully understand I have the perfect Shiba specimen, no doubt -- strong-willed, dominant, unafraid. Jake is not aggressive, but he's not scared either and just isn't tolerant of dogs that are misbehaved. That puppy went straight to Jake's face and Jake growled and showed his teeth but he never lunged or touched the puppy, he was merely telling the unruly puppy in dog language to get out of my face. Our western dogs have lost the pack integration instincts and simply do not have our primative Shiba etiquette manners. Those daycare folks don't know anything about our dogs or their languages.

    I did speak with a behaviorist from the list SNF provided (thanks again!). She was in total agreement with all of us, seeming to understand the breed and its fearless characteristics at the same time asking me to understand those traits and to be keen to those when introducing Jake to other dogs, which I think I have been. She too is leary of dog parks and daycamps because of the ever changing environments and suggests I have playdates instead. In walks Jazz :-)

    Jake has never threatened a human, never. He is the perfect dog for me and exactly what I wanted when I sought a companion. I hope this is my lesson to quit trying to integrate him into a society of misbehaved dogs and ignorant owners.
  • edited November -1
    That's great you called or met with a professional trainer! : )

    I was concerned with your statement. "Then the handler let in a male puppy, off lead, and Jake immediately went for him.” (That is very different than the a puppy coming over to get in the dog's face). From the previous statement, this is where I made the assumption that he might be territorial and possibly in the first stages of aggressive behavior since you mention Jake was clinging near you so much. "Aggression" does not always start full blown from the get go. So I doubt the pup would have been killed by Jake if Jake were mildly aggressive. Aggression develops in steps and phases if it is self-reinforced/rewarded. For example, initially the Shiba gets the other animal/person/object away through an outburst or bad behavior. Once that works they up the anti the next time. You have to be on your toes or look out for the possibility as he interacts with others (new dogs) so you can manage it.

    There are developmental phases for all dogs and as such you may see all sorts of things crop up. The key is to be aware and have some training already under the dog's belt so you can work out the kinks. The bottom line, it is important to be objective when looking at a situation and move in to correcting it as quickly as possible if it is a detriment to the well being of your dog, other people or animals.

    Foundation work is the best way to manage behavior in general and it is helpful to have a qualified mentor to achieve that.

    Good luck.... It is a great way meet others who have dogs he likes that can be a potential for play dates for Jake.

    Snf
  • edited November -1
    I'm glad you came to that conclusion and it was further confirmed by a real canine behavior professional !

    She is correct, its what our behaviorist said, although we can go to dog parks and Tsuki and Kitsune will run and frolic and sometimes interact with other dogs, there is always a chance that their primitive traits will shine through and what may seem to some others as aggression or fighting (watching those two in the heat of 'battle'-aka-play could seem like a fight, they are just scruff grabbing, leg pulling rough when they play!).

    My behaviorist explained that aggression, true dog aggression is something that only a professional can evaluate, you can't just walk into a room with a dog and deem them aggressive for showing teeth and growling. There are many, many factors you have to consider! Its so much more devastating to deem a dog truly dangerous and aggressive - it is the result of a compilation of many observed items in a professional evaluation, not a doggy daycare prefabricated temperment test.
    My behaviorist also reminded me that the terms 'reactive', 'possessive', and other non-aggression terms can appear to a non professional to be aggression, but you just can't label your dog without a proper evaluation.

    I think you are on the path to truly understanding those traits that Jake can't deny himself of - and for him to become an accepted member of public society, you just have to work around those traits and modify certain behaviors, or just have playdates at home!

    I'm glad you are taking the time to understand your dog and not taking some silly doggy daycare Cesar wannabe worker's word for it!!
  • edited November -1
    hah. I would've told them straight-out about everything they were doing wrong to evaluate your dog. What a bunch of morons. Everyone thinks they're experts on dog behavior, nowadays.
  • edited November -1
    The guy met your dog for like 20 minutes and said you would either need give Jake away to a farm because of how protective he is going to be come? What an ass.

    The training and obedience is a good idea though. There's been a lot of good advice in this thread, I really only wanted to comment on what an ass the owner of that place is.
  • edited November -1
    Sorry He failed. but glad you talked with a behaviorist. Some people dont get dog language they automatically assume it fighting when its really a good round of bitey-face or that humping is sexual and not a dominance issue. Its always difficult introducing new people into our play group because of this.

    The daycare just wasn't a right fit i would look for another or just stick to play dates.
  • edited November -1
    Jake didn’t fail, Scarlet passed.

    I’m not going to rehash all the points raised here because they’re already spot on; but the mere fact that you didn’t defer to the first “expert opinion” tells me Jake is going to be just fine in the long run.

    “Write a $500 check or put the dog down”; holy crap, I would have politely thanked the guy for his time and tried not to pee in my pants laughing on the way out. :0)
  • edited November -1
    ZRight on point Diggah! Thanks so much.

    I'm not always great at putting all my thoughts into words, cause there are so many, but I will try.

    I am quite happy with my choice of dogs. I've always noted "Jake is the perfect dog for me" but I should also probably note "I am perfect for Jake", a true Shiba owner. We do understand each other and have complimentary personalities. It is one of the many reasons I chose a Shiba after 4 years of being without a pet companion. I make these statements not because I am competitive and can't fail, but rather honestly and to the fact.

    I am not going to correct my 11 month old Shiba for everything, it would be constant and he has to grow and experience. I never did it for a previous dogs, and I won't do it for him. At the same time, I have no doubt he knows when I say it, I mean it and he doesn't question that final authority, accepts it and abides by it. I do have ultimate control over my dog.

    And Brandon, your chime-in is welcome and appreciated and understood. Those folks have a business to run, just not a business where Jake fits in and I accept that. I did not want, nor did I get, a submissive male Shiba who rolls over and gives in. It's not their personality and it's not mine.

    I will prove to the forum and anyone else who needs proof that Jake is not aggressive. I will babysit a 2 lb yorkie mid-month July. I can't wait. I've seen her and she's about a lb right now and her owner asked if I would keep her. Jake will have fun and love her and be gentle with her. Of course, I will make sure it :-P
  • edited November -1
    HA. So Jake goes back to the original PetSmart today for daycamp. I pick him up and the little Corgi mom is there. "Jake and Bella played (bad w/names, too much info, I'll call her Bella). I watched them!" Ah, yeppers The Jake Man is social and picky w/his playmates. He prefers pretty females. Bella's mom told me she watched him as he got her in a lie down submission state, but then she got back up and they went to playing. She loved seeing it noting Bella needs a dog of substance. HEHE. I have Bella's number and a playdate is in Jake's future. Still, no Harley, so Jake moves on to the next. But we are still on the watch for Harley, every time we go.

    Right now, my little Jake Man is exhausted and napping. He had a busy play day and I am glad for it.
  • edited June 2008
    Glad to see Jake had a successful day in puppycare!
  • edited November -1
    That's really great news!
Sign In or Register to comment.