After looking at the ingredient list, I see that it's actually sardine and anchovy oil, also some soy in it....Jen, is this the correct thing to use? Should I use the pump bottle oil instead that specifically says "salmon oil" if at all...sometimes I get a little carried away with supplements.
No soy, actually I'd be concerned about the soy. Moreso since my female shiba is sensitive to it but also because its not necessary in this supplement. I have a book at home that talks about soy overuse and its effect on growth and organ function in humans, I assume similar can happen in canines... I'll post the excerpt.
I would do more research on it if that formula bothers you, I'm totally biased when it comes to soy in a dog diet.. I just don't understand its place in a canine diet, much like corn. And yet, prescription vet diets contain both most of the time.
"She celebrated her new success by rolling in some bird poo. She is very pleased with herself." <- LOL!!!!!
I get my Omega-3 capsules at Costco too. "Health Balance" brand (w/ anchovy and sardine. nothing about soy on my label though). I give one to Mylo every night after dinner. His coat is getting sooooo nice. I haven't noticed any differences in his personality since starting them a few weeks ago. Then again, I haven't taken him off of them...
Congrats on the CGC!!! That's awesome!!! I'd like to get Kahlo into that as well....now that my shoulder is better than it was, I'm going to look at area centers for training if I can't get her into one of Diane's classes.
As for the fish oil, I use Costco's Omega-3's as well. Kahlo won't eat em' so I have to pierce it and squeeze on her food (3 at a time)...I'll sometimes also feed her sardines which she loves. Her coat is ABSOLUTELY incredible...it is like night and day from when we got her. Her fur is so soft and shimmering, it's like a different dog. I've also noticed a slight behavior change when I reduced the fish oil...she became more reactive...hmmm....???
Do you use 3 capsules per meal? If it's the same Omega-3 Costco ones I have, that's 900mg a sitting. What exactly is an appropriate dose of "fish oil" (Omega-3) for a dog?
"Nordic Naturals recommends one capsule of its 1500 mg soft gel fish oil for large dogs weighing 20 pounds or more. Smaller animals should get smaller doses. If you use fish oil that is intended for humans, you can give larger dogs a capsule or two (depending on the dosage) and puncture a capsule to squeeze some of the contents into the food of smaller dogs or cats.
I thinks it's a 1200 mg capsule, and I was doing 1 each AM and PM, but after researching recently, I switched to a liquid salmon oil only. I think the soy part is in the capsule casing.
re:fish oil- I have read that sardine and anchovy (small fish) are a better choice than salmon (big fish) - maybe b/c of risk of contaminant/mercury accumulation in big fish?
So due to allergy reasons I decided to convert Beebe over to raw completely. It's been about 3-4 weeks now I think and there has been a huge difference! I only need to give her 1/2 a benadryl on shot days and I can give her entire allergy shot all at once now without extra itching or licking later. Her grooming patterns are also very different. She used to be a focused determined gnawer and chewer on her feet and tummy, but now it's just more relaxed and an occasional nibble on some random area, nothing specific like before. She lacks the grimey, oily feel now also and DOESN'T SMELL ANYMORE! The hyperpigmented areas on her tummy have turned a healthy pink color and her coat has come in with a vengence.
I have some Orijen kibble to use up, so occasionally she gets a kibble meal when we are on the road, but it's 3/4 raw now.
Jen, or other raw feeders, do you think this is a good rotation? Anything I am missing?
I am using the Nature's Variety rabbit 1/2 patty with added fish oil until I get adept at doing organs. The second meal is 1/2 a turkey neck or a whole ckicken neck with fish oil, added seaweeds, plain yogurt and 2 raw Quail eggs. I will start adding Seameal if I need to, but I feel like I am missing some veg or something. Do I need to add anything else like chicken backs or potatoes? I will start adding whole Quail and maybe rabbit next month I think. Do I need to gut the animals and just keep the livers/heart/kidneys, or do you give the entire thing? She had quite a blow out with the green tripe, but Ike was ok, I think it was the digested grains in there that did it.
Lindsay, I know you didn't ask me for my raw opinion, but as for whole quail or rabbits, you can go ahead and give 'em whole. The bones are small enough even for Lilith to finish up. You don't need to bother with gutting them, that's part of the fun for the dogs! Some dogs do take funny to whole prey though. Ours didn't seem to realize that birds with feathers on were actually food until we slit them up the middle to expose some innards (kinda like enticing snakes to eat dead prey).
As for veggies, I don't think they are necessary. Some raw feeders do add some vegetables but as for people who do prey-model, we don't. Easy with the eggs though, sometimes they'll cause the runs when given too many. Are you giving the eggs with the shell? It's a great natural source of calcium.
The NV is a good start to feeding raw, but just be aware of the sourcing. From what I know the NV rabbit is now sourced from China. Not that everything from China is shady, but you do want to be aware of the QA standards.
Have you started giving any raw bones yet? Boy are those fun! Turkey necks as you've been given are fun, but wait till you get to the wings and other crunchier bones!
As for the tripe.. perhaps you can source some grass-fed cow tripe vs grain fed..
Hey Lindsay, Ichi was having some dark spots show up on his foot (vet thought it was hysteocytoma), so I brought her my full smattering of food and supplements I was giving Ichi (including the fish oil). Just adding my $.000002 here but my vet told me to refrain from using the fish oil from Costco if it contains the anchovie oil. It's her opinion that anchovie oil is more allergy reactive than the other fish oils (salmon, etc.).
I admire your conviction for feeding RAW. Hope it all goes well for you!
Whole Prey (whole quail) = nutritional balance. You still need variety (red meat) but still, whole prey is the ideal meal in a raw diet.
I agree with yukidomari - perhaps at first slicing the chest cavity for them might entice them to eat the whole prey. Don't be too put off or shocked if they leave parts here or there. Tsuki always leaves fur/feathers, and Kitsu always leaves the head!
Variety is really important once you are 100% raw, 0% kibble.
Our menu is like this:
1 - Chicken quarter, boneless beef, sardines or salmon heads 2 - Beef or chicken liver, whole raw smelt, chicken leg or back/neck (depending on amt of liver) 3 - Beef Heart, Chicken Feet, Egg 4 - Chicken quarter or whole cornish hen, venison and/or tripe/spleen mix 5 - Pork liver, chicken gizzards (or if we are lucky beef tongue), pig foot 6 - Either Nature's Variety Lamb and ground bison or Honest Kitchen Force/Embark/Preference with a chicken leg. Day 6 is Saturday and when we have it, they get whole prey (usually rabbit). 7 - Fast
They also get pre-and pro-biotic via yogurt daily and a fish oil capsule. I sprinkle kelp onto their Honest Kitchen. I par boil organs (b/c they won't eat them as is!)
Since you are just starting, you need to add variety (like tripe!) slowly. After 3 weeks on raw chicken, I added one new protein a week. If we had tummy trouble, we started back where we were the week before. The only think I do not use is pork meat (though the organs seem to be ok). We never have luck with pork. I go easy on eggs.
Do beware of the NV sourcing, I've tried to get them less and less, but NV is more available to me than Primal or Oma raw..
When you are ready to eliminate kibble altogether, I can help you with a spreadsheet (whisper me your email?) to balance her necessary nutrients, and how to get the amounts from the USDA.gov website, translated into protein and nutrient breakdowns. It only gets better from here!
Awesome! All input about raw is welcome, no worries. I'm basically just starting and trying to find a good balance, I like the prey model and that seems most compatible. Wings are a great idea! I have some duck wings in the freezer and legs still. I picked up some raw meaty bones also, but I am looking for bones that they can actually chew up and digest that won't break their teeth (which would probably be poultry bones?) My mother was disgusted, by the way, when she opened my freezer to get a popsicle. The dogs are soon to be needing their own freezer chest.
The quail eggs are so tiny, I give only 2 at a time but since she is getting the necks at the same time with the calcium from that, I wanted to save the shells to dry and crush and feed back to the quail for their own calcium needs (they need it to lay). It's an old farming thing that has been carried down for ages, I know I could get artificial or oyster shell but it's really large for the birds to eat and it isn't as natural as their own.
That's good to know about NV. I can get Primal here or (Bravo? I think that's a raw) if that is better, I will have to research it more. I really like the fish idea, I'm okay with them eating the whole thing. I need to find someplace to buy raw sardines now. I have a butcher shop already that is accomodating for game meats and then all the others (chicken necks/backs, etc) the cheap cuts and throw away stuff seems to be the cheaper option.
Fish is great! Our dogs eat 'em raw, but some dogs don't like to eat it. They'll play with it for a while, make a mess and then not eat it.. :S
Just note, with the fish. I would deep freeze them for at least 3 days and thaw before feeding. You never really know if the "fresh" fish at market is actually fresh, or it's frozen and defrosted "fresh". Lots of fish do carry worms and parasites that affect just dogs (and not humans), and freezing it for prolonged periods helps to guard against them.
I didn't know you farmed your own quail eggs. That's awesome!
Lilith, who I am sure is smaller than your Shiba (13" at the shoulders, 10lbs), can go through lamb shoulders no problem, bones and all. So that's another option for you. Another option for edible bones from poultry is also feet! You can get them from Asian markets.
Thanks, that's good to know about the lamb. I hadn't thought of that.
One other question about the Quail- they likely carry coccidia, and although it is not an active infection, as in, they are not sick from it, it's likely always present in some amount in them (hell, they crap in their drinking water while they are drinking out of it). This is also partly why my dogs don't get to have contact with the birds at this point. Before I plan to slaughter any of the birds for consumption by the dogs, and I would freeze them anyway for a couple weeks, do you think it wise or necessary to medicate the birds with Albon before slaughter or periodically just to be safe?
Besides the fish, everything else we feed the dogs in terms of raw is organic. In that regard, I assume that the quail is also untreated, and the pups have never gotten sick from it.
From what I understand, adult dogs with developed systems can and do often carry coccidia asymtopmatically. For this reason even great breeders have small pups come down with Coccidia at times from the mother, who herself does not show any sign of being sick and needs no treatment for it for herself.
I don't like the idea of medicating the dogs or their food if it's not necessary. I'm not sure of the 'life span' of Albon in a bird's system, but if it's anything like what they use in industrial farms, those chemicals can still be found in the meat that's to be consumed.. So I personally wouldn't be that worried with grown up dogs to just give them untreated quail.
Aww, the quail are tummy food! Looks like the kitty was smart enough to pluck them.
I am thinking of buying an incubator (a baatam would be nice but chickens do smell, maybe once I am in the country on my own property). It would allow me to grow more birds to actually provide more than an occasional meat meal.
Thanks for the links Jen, you are cool. I have some reading to do.
Baby girl is 2 years old today. It's shocking for me to reflect on how different my life was 2 years ago when I was sans Shiba of my own.
Here are some pics from yesterday. We spent the AM at a matched show, and I signed Beebe up for an Obedience run, while Ike and Alona took their turn in the conformation ring. Beebes was too busy goofing off and sounding the alarm at the canon fire from the nearby Fort (I guess they decided to test their artillary that day-fun times), so we sort of canned that idea and she mostly just got some good ringside experience on how to behave herself in public. My niece came up to visit and she was wonderful at helping me with all 3 dogs. My mom took Alona in the ring for the breed judging also, so it was a nice family day.
Beebe had some special birthday pupsicles made of frozen organic chicken broth, and some sardines for breakfast. There are some kongs filled with meat baby food in the freezer for desert, idea courtesy of Jen (tsukisune).
Pictures of the weekend, and of the first Quail harvest. The very first pic is just before I started her on raw, and even if it's hard to tell by photo, the difference by touch and with her allergies is night and day. She is a different dog then when I first brought her home at 9 weeks.
Comments
That is *really* interesting on the omega 3's... what are the total ingredients of the caps you give her?
I get the Costco brand fish oil, I think it's "Nature Made". http://naturemade.com/ProductDatabase/prd_prod.asp?tab=Products&productid=127#precautions
After looking at the ingredient list, I see that it's actually sardine and anchovy oil, also some soy in it....Jen, is this the correct thing to use? Should I use the pump bottle oil instead that specifically says "salmon oil" if at all...sometimes I get a little carried away with supplements.
http://www.everythingnaturalpa.com/shop/product_view.asp?id=25079&StoreID=649919FBFBB44C298243770054A2AA8C&private_product=0
No soy, actually I'd be concerned about the soy. Moreso since my female shiba is sensitive to it but also because its not necessary in this supplement. I have a book at home that talks about soy overuse and its effect on growth and organ function in humans, I assume similar can happen in canines... I'll post the excerpt.
I would do more research on it if that formula bothers you, I'm totally biased when it comes to soy in a dog diet.. I just don't understand its place in a canine diet, much like corn. And yet, prescription vet diets contain both most of the time.
Mine like the mix of both (LOL)
Snf
Yours and Beebe's accomplishment is an inspiration for me. Maybe there's hope yet that my own dog can acheive CGC status!
Jesse
I get my Omega-3 capsules at Costco too. "Health Balance" brand (w/ anchovy and sardine. nothing about soy on my label though). I give one to Mylo every night after dinner. His coat is getting sooooo nice. I haven't noticed any differences in his personality since starting them a few weeks ago. Then again, I haven't taken him off of them...
As for the fish oil, I use Costco's Omega-3's as well. Kahlo won't eat em' so I have to pierce it and squeeze on her food (3 at a time)...I'll sometimes also feed her sardines which she loves. Her coat is ABSOLUTELY incredible...it is like night and day from when we got her. Her fur is so soft and shimmering, it's like a different dog. I've also noticed a slight behavior change when I reduced the fish oil...she became more reactive...hmmm....???
Jesse
http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA400120/fish-oil-for-dogs.html
http://www.nrdc.org/health/effects/mercury/guide.asp
http://www.edf.org/page.cfm?tagID=1521&redirect=seafood
I have some Orijen kibble to use up, so occasionally she gets a kibble meal when we are on the road, but it's 3/4 raw now.
Jen, or other raw feeders, do you think this is a good rotation? Anything I am missing?
I am using the Nature's Variety rabbit 1/2 patty with added fish oil until I get adept at doing organs. The second meal is 1/2 a turkey neck or a whole ckicken neck with fish oil, added seaweeds, plain yogurt and 2 raw Quail eggs. I will start adding Seameal if I need to, but I feel like I am missing some veg or something. Do I need to add anything else like chicken backs or potatoes? I will start adding whole Quail and maybe rabbit next month I think. Do I need to gut the animals and just keep the livers/heart/kidneys, or do you give the entire thing? She had quite a blow out with the green tripe, but Ike was ok, I think it was the digested grains in there that did it.
Thanks!
As for veggies, I don't think they are necessary. Some raw feeders do add some vegetables but as for people who do prey-model, we don't. Easy with the eggs though, sometimes they'll cause the runs when given too many. Are you giving the eggs with the shell? It's a great natural source of calcium.
The NV is a good start to feeding raw, but just be aware of the sourcing. From what I know the NV rabbit is now sourced from China. Not that everything from China is shady, but you do want to be aware of the QA standards.
Have you started giving any raw bones yet? Boy are those fun! Turkey necks as you've been given are fun, but wait till you get to the wings and other crunchier bones!
As for the tripe.. perhaps you can source some grass-fed cow tripe vs grain fed..
Ichi was having some dark spots show up on his foot (vet thought it was hysteocytoma), so I brought her my full smattering of food and supplements I was giving Ichi (including the fish oil). Just adding my $.000002 here but my vet told me to refrain from using the fish oil from Costco if it contains the anchovie oil. It's her opinion that anchovie oil is more allergy reactive than the other fish oils (salmon, etc.).
I admire your conviction for feeding RAW. Hope it all goes well for you!
Jesse
Whole Prey (whole quail) = nutritional balance. You still need variety (red meat) but still, whole prey is the ideal meal in a raw diet.
I agree with yukidomari - perhaps at first slicing the chest cavity for them might entice them to eat the whole prey. Don't be too put off or shocked if they leave parts here or there. Tsuki always leaves fur/feathers, and Kitsu always leaves the head!
Variety is really important once you are 100% raw, 0% kibble.
Our menu is like this:
1 - Chicken quarter, boneless beef, sardines or salmon heads
2 - Beef or chicken liver, whole raw smelt, chicken leg or back/neck (depending on amt of liver)
3 - Beef Heart, Chicken Feet, Egg
4 - Chicken quarter or whole cornish hen, venison and/or tripe/spleen mix
5 - Pork liver, chicken gizzards (or if we are lucky beef tongue), pig foot
6 - Either Nature's Variety Lamb and ground bison or Honest Kitchen Force/Embark/Preference with a chicken leg. Day 6 is Saturday and when we have it, they get whole prey (usually rabbit).
7 - Fast
They also get pre-and pro-biotic via yogurt daily and a fish oil capsule. I sprinkle kelp onto their Honest Kitchen. I par boil organs (b/c they won't eat them as is!)
Since you are just starting, you need to add variety (like tripe!) slowly. After 3 weeks on raw chicken, I added one new protein a week. If we had tummy trouble, we started back where we were the week before. The only think I do not use is pork meat (though the organs seem to be ok). We never have luck with pork. I go easy on eggs.
Do beware of the NV sourcing, I've tried to get them less and less, but NV is more available to me than Primal or Oma raw..
When you are ready to eliminate kibble altogether, I can help you with a spreadsheet (whisper me your email?) to balance her necessary nutrients, and how to get the amounts from the USDA.gov website, translated into protein and nutrient breakdowns. It only gets better from here!
The quail eggs are so tiny, I give only 2 at a time but since she is getting the necks at the same time with the calcium from that, I wanted to save the shells to dry and crush and feed back to the quail for their own calcium needs (they need it to lay). It's an old farming thing that has been carried down for ages, I know I could get artificial or oyster shell but it's really large for the birds to eat and it isn't as natural as their own.
That's good to know about NV. I can get Primal here or (Bravo? I think that's a raw) if that is better, I will have to research it more. I really like the fish idea, I'm okay with them eating the whole thing. I need to find someplace to buy raw sardines now. I have a butcher shop already that is accomodating for game meats and then all the others (chicken necks/backs, etc) the cheap cuts and throw away stuff seems to be the cheaper option.
Just note, with the fish. I would deep freeze them for at least 3 days and thaw before feeding. You never really know if the "fresh" fish at market is actually fresh, or it's frozen and defrosted "fresh". Lots of fish do carry worms and parasites that affect just dogs (and not humans), and freezing it for prolonged periods helps to guard against them.
I didn't know you farmed your own quail eggs. That's awesome!
Lilith, who I am sure is smaller than your Shiba (13" at the shoulders, 10lbs), can go through lamb shoulders no problem, bones and all. So that's another option for you. Another option for edible bones from poultry is also feet! You can get them from Asian markets.
One other question about the Quail- they likely carry coccidia, and although it is not an active infection, as in, they are not sick from it, it's likely always present in some amount in them (hell, they crap in their drinking water while they are drinking out of it). This is also partly why my dogs don't get to have contact with the birds at this point. Before I plan to slaughter any of the birds for consumption by the dogs, and I would freeze them anyway for a couple weeks, do you think it wise or necessary to medicate the birds with Albon before slaughter or periodically just to be safe?
Besides the fish, everything else we feed the dogs in terms of raw is organic. In that regard, I assume that the quail is also untreated, and the pups have never gotten sick from it.
From what I understand, adult dogs with developed systems can and do often carry coccidia asymtopmatically. For this reason even great breeders have small pups come down with Coccidia at times from the mother, who herself does not show any sign of being sick and needs no treatment for it for herself.
I don't like the idea of medicating the dogs or their food if it's not necessary. I'm not sure of the 'life span' of Albon in a bird's system, but if it's anything like what they use in industrial farms, those chemicals can still be found in the meat that's to be consumed.. So I personally wouldn't be that worried with grown up dogs to just give them untreated quail.
Check out the quail!
http://www.rawfeddogs.net/RecipePhotos/57
I am thinking of buying an incubator (a baatam would be nice but chickens do smell, maybe once I am in the country on my own property). It would allow me to grow more birds to actually provide more than an occasional meat meal.
Thanks for the links Jen, you are cool. I have some reading to do.
Here are some pics from yesterday. We spent the AM at a matched show, and I signed Beebe up for an Obedience run, while Ike and Alona took their turn in the conformation ring. Beebes was too busy goofing off and sounding the alarm at the canon fire from the nearby Fort (I guess they decided to test their artillary that day-fun times), so we sort of canned that idea and she mostly just got some good ringside experience on how to behave herself in public. My niece came up to visit and she was wonderful at helping me with all 3 dogs. My mom took Alona in the ring for the breed judging also, so it was a nice family day.
Beebe had some special birthday pupsicles made of frozen organic chicken broth, and some sardines for breakfast. There are some kongs filled with meat baby food in the freezer for desert, idea courtesy of Jen (tsukisune).
Pictures of the weekend, and of the first Quail harvest. The very first pic is just before I started her on raw, and even if it's hard to tell by photo, the difference by touch and with her allergies is night and day. She is a different dog then when I first brought her home at 9 weeks.
Happy quail harvest, too!
She is trying out for a suprise canine sports team on Sunday :) Hopefully, all goes well and I will try to take some pictures.