Cliff - You could produce a Shikoku Ken that looks like that in just a few generation of not selecting for the Shikoku Ken standard [phenotype]. If you took the Shikoku in America and started breeding them together, selecting only for workability and not for phenotype, you would end up with a dog that has very pure Shikoku Ken lines but doesn't match the Shikoku Ken standard. That is what that picture illustrates.
NIPPO created the standard for the Shikoku Ken in the 1930s [I think that is correct - might have been the 40s], up to that point Shikoku existed as an Aboriginal hunting breed that was bred solely for workability in a remote region.
For example, looking past Ahi's health issues, I would breed Ahi way before Loa if I was selecting for workability [hunting drive, ruggedness, energy level, focus, etc] but Ahi is to big for the standard. So one can hypothesize that, since male Shikoku are larger than female Shikoku, Ahi's offspring would be large too.
Now imagine if Ahi had an incorrect mask or no urajiro, and we bred her for workability, some of those pups would, more than likely, have her phenotype. So, would that dog be NOT be a Shikoku Ken?
That's an interesting point, Brad. I understand that most pet-quality dogs you get from breeders are a little nonconforming, I guess I just never thought that if you were to breed those dogs for a few generations you could get a dog that looked so different.
I guess this working Shikoku shows that there is actually a fairly diverse gene pool in the Shikoku lines, then.
Rui - I know what you mean, and it very well could have some Kai - or even Kishu in it. Really, all these breeds have a little of each other in them since all the native Nihonken were started from the ancient Jomon dogs. And, on that note, I think you could probably get a more "Kai" look [shorter muzzle, less curled tail] in a Shikoku if you just started selecting for it since the same "stuff" that creates those traits live in the Shikoku as well.
A lot of time temperament follows color in breeds - like the black sesame Shikoku tend to have more of a working temperament while the reds tend to be more pet-like.
Another example of this can be found in Caucasian Ovcharka too, if you want to breed for the "bear" type [like Luytiy] you breed towards the fawn and brown colors because once you start breeding toward the gray/black colors [like a Sarplaninac coloration] you get a dog that has a longer muzzle and less of a stop [and therefore is not the "bear" type].
There are lots of breeds that show this type of thing when you select for one color - you end up with a trait that "piggy backs" on that color selection. It's kinda interesting, especially when you start to consider a type of temperament as one of those traits.
To add to what I just wrote - if the black Shikoku tend to have more of a "working" temperament, and one wanted to breed their Shikoku to be the best workers, and therefore selected for that temperament and ignored colors, one would probably end up with mostly darker Shikoku... which may explain why the colors of the Shikoku pictured above are so dark w/ very little white.
Corina was saying a while back that in Japan they'll breed black and tan dogs, even though the colour is against the breed standard, because the black and tan colour carries with it lots of good traits. Maybe she can elaborate.
Kenshi - To be honest, I'm not sure what the typical or average cost of a Shikoku puppy is in Japan. As I have only purchased from one breeder, who himself does not have hardly, if any litters. He has other people who breed his line. I got a great deal with Shoushuu. As the breeder, I believe got him for me last minute (stud fee puppy). He already has about 5 Shikoku of his own and at the time he also had 1 Akagoma male puppy (half brother to mine) available. Shikoku owners are hard to come by in Japan and he had to sell puppy (Shoushuu). So I paid 100,000 yens for my boy. Roughly $1,000 by today's economical standard.
We still need to pay for JKC registration. Nippo is optional but recommended, especially since our club is based off of Nippo standard. I will register all my Shikoku with Nippo, even future pups that I'll produce here in the States.
Heidi - I've already mentioned shipping as "baggage" is $200 from Japan to California. - Health check/Microchip about 10,000 yens - additional fees included the $800 roundtrip airplane ticket to Japan and back home (I got lucky special discount in 2007! It's more expensive now...), $375 for roundtrip Tokyo-Kumamoto and back to Tokyo. Then $200 to ship puppy with me from Kumamoto to Tokyo. - Then I think 4,000 yens for JKC/NIPPO registration??? I don't remember! - I didn't bring a crate with me so I had to buy a 200 Medium Vari-kennel for about 15,000-20,000 yens and this was suppose to be "special price" -coughs-.
So roughly $2,905 in total costs.
Brad - Shipping costs (puppy traveling alone) probably just depend on airplane carriers, maybe some are cheaper and others more expensive then others -shrugs-.
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Importing Shikoku as pets (non-breeders)
The benefit to importing Shikoku from Japan just as pets is that the puppy will live a much happier life. As I've said before Shikoku owners are hard to come by in Japan. When a home is found (in Japan), it is not always a good environment for puppy to grow up and live. Or maybe new owners will not be so good for said puppy. Sometimes breeders may not be comfortable selling puppy to this home. If a new, better home does not come along, sometimes they are "forced" to sell due to an already full house of dogs or economical reasons. This is life in Japan.
Opps...sorry =(^-^`)=, lol, I totally forgot to add a few zero's (I was still thinking in dollars)! Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Would be nice though huh? Maybe in a "fourth" world country, I could believe it.
Yes, many breeders care for their dogs. However, the mentality here is that "they" believe it unnesscessary to test healthy dogs. On the other hand, if the dog became sick or injured I'm sure they would do testings (if they can't find out the problem otherwse).
There was a bit of a misunderstanding, I had my friend ask my breeder about common health concerns within the Shikoku breed. For whatever reason (maybe because I purchased puppy from him) the breeder thought I was asking of his line and he says, "NO WAY, I DO NOT HAVE ANY BAD HEALTH DOGS." So I don't have to worry. He says no need to x-ray for hips, elbows or patella but I can if I want to.
I just left it at that. I will give him a call next year to give some more updates on my Shikoku. Then somehow clearly state my question appropriately to ask about other Shikoku lines to watch out for health concerns. Maybe next year I can speak with other Shikoku breeders, handlers and owners to find out what they say. I do have a phone number for another Shikoku breeder (also is Nippo judge). It's his working number, but I can call during business hours. We'll see!
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It is very interesting to see that the working lines in dogs tend be darker in color. As with the German Shepherd, there are 2 distinct showlines (American and West German). Then there is the working line, generally sable in color. Hmmm...
...now I'm curious to see what kind of changes may occur within my Shikoku line, once I start breeding. As I tend to breed more for working ability. I do like a working dog that is also pretty, however...I don't mind sacrificing some conformation for working enthics. As I can always get the conformation back in later generations.
Heidi - Nothing further to elaborate on the breeding of black and tan Shikoku. You stated it as I heard it. The color is expressed from some far-back pedigree line. Its traits are highly desirable. Tis' something else to ask breeders, handlers and owners.
I'm pretty certain though that although there aren't any known (least none that I know of) ill health effects of breeding white Shikoku, it is just simply not done. I guess there is nothing to gain from it, so it is not nesscessary.
As I understand it, there are 3 varieties of Shikoku and then several pedigree lines the branch out within them. So there are potientially "different" kinds of Shikoku. They are the same breed but unique unto themselves.
For Fun: Hey, I know we can start breeding a new line and dub it as "Snow Shikoku" (for the white colorings)! I have way too much fun on this forum, lol. One of these days someone might take me seriously and come after me, epps! -runs-
Corina - For the record, and for the sake clarity, I wasn't saying all working lines in dogs tend be darker in color. I just pointed out a trend I have noticed with the Shikoku. I was also pointing out that their seems to be, in other breeds, a correlation between color [not necessarily black] and "type" once you start breeding toward either.
Brad - Never said that you did. I'm just making my own comparison using the German Shepherd. I noticed that right off the bat, so it struck my curiousity.
As for my future Shikoku line, I'm interested in seeing what changes may occur period. As I'm concerned more about temperment/working enthics and less with conformation, since form follows function. Not all, but it seems that most Shikoku breeders in modern times seem to be more concerned about conformation then working enthics. So, it'll just be interesting to see any changes over all by breeding more for the working environment rather then the show ring.
Indeed, there does seem to be correlation between color and type within certain breeds, oddly enough. Of course, not always the same in the case between breeds but generally within a breed itself.
Prime example: I went to a seminar where the "speaker" came to a conclusion that the Merle corloring in Shelties seemed to carry with it an "uncordination because of depth perception". Now, nothing is written in stone, however...according to her many years of observation only dogs of this color would exhibit particular behaviors unknown to other colors of its breed. Food for thought.
There are different variations of GSD sable color tone from extremely light to very dark. There there are also "textures" from "faint" to "rich", which is color pigmentaion.
Common color descriptions: Light Sable, Red Sable, Black Sable.
It would make sense that darker colours would better suite a working type shikoku as it would better help them blend in to their environment for hunting, etc, whereas red and white would reallly stand out to potential prey perhaps?
Lindsayt, actually I really think that it depends on the environment and the time of year. If you were in deep shady woods, maybe the dark Shikoku would blend in better, but in the fall, with a lot of "tanish" leaf litter, my light red sesame Shikoku blends in really well. Actually, he recently escaped (yikes) and he blended in so well that you could not spot him among the trees, corn stalks, etc.
Also, I would not say that the red Shikoku's don't "work" well. I think that they do have a work ethic too. Mine has an incredible drive to hunt (really, really high hunting drive). I cannot even comment on how many squirrels, rabbits, possums, ground hogs he has killed that have wandered in the yard. He also is incredible smart about hunting, learning that if he hid and stayed stock still, he had a better opportunity of catching the prey vs running full force when the prey still had an escape route out of the yard.
Maybe what Brad was saying is that they are more "obedient and less willful" than the black sesames. I have no comparison (yet), so I cannot say. I will have a black sesame some time in the future (assuming a successful mating of Katja's dark Shikokus), so I can comment more then.
My completely pseudo-scientific hypothesis would be that it is related to hormones somehow. However, the connection between aptitude and coloring is probably circumstancial - like, the genes that make the dog darker in color and the genes that make the dog a robust, driven worker express at the same time more often than not.
I was not saying the red sesames are incapable of working, and obviously there will be exceptions to the rule. I have just noticed a trend that seems to indicate the black sesame Shikoku are "sharper" from a working standpoint.
Example: Loa is as good a hunter as any of our other dogs, she would make an OK hunting dog but she lacks the "sharpness" needed to really corner and bay an animal like a Boar. Loa would probably back away from the boar. Ahi on the other hand wouldn't back down from anything.
Also, if there is a rabbit on the other side of the fence, Loa will sit there and stalk it and want to get it. Ahi on the other hand will start tearing our fence apart trying to get to it.
I have noticed these types of things in other reds and blacks.
That is what I am talking about: "sharpness". Ahi will give it 110%, while Loa will give it 99%. That is a small difference, but if I were selecting for [original type of] workability [hunting/baying] I would choose Ahi over Loa.
On the other hand, if I wanted an obedience champion [which is another form of working] I would choose Loa - but, again, I was slanting my comments toward the breeds original intended use.
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Cliff - Yea, I feel the same way. I don't think there is a direct link between color and type... But I do think some elements of type may "piggy back" on color [or the other way around].
Comments
NIPPO created the standard for the Shikoku Ken in the 1930s [I think that is correct - might have been the 40s], up to that point Shikoku existed as an Aboriginal hunting breed that was bred solely for workability in a remote region.
For example, looking past Ahi's health issues, I would breed Ahi way before Loa if I was selecting for workability [hunting drive, ruggedness, energy level, focus, etc] but Ahi is to big for the standard. So one can hypothesize that, since male Shikoku are larger than female Shikoku, Ahi's offspring would be large too.
Now imagine if Ahi had an incorrect mask or no urajiro, and we bred her for workability, some of those pups would, more than likely, have her phenotype. So, would that dog be NOT be a Shikoku Ken?
----
I guess this working Shikoku shows that there is actually a fairly diverse gene pool in the Shikoku lines, then.
A lot of time temperament follows color in breeds - like the black sesame Shikoku tend to have more of a working temperament while the reds tend to be more pet-like.
Another example of this can be found in Caucasian Ovcharka too, if you want to breed for the "bear" type [like Luytiy] you breed towards the fawn and brown colors because once you start breeding toward the gray/black colors [like a Sarplaninac coloration] you get a dog that has a longer muzzle and less of a stop [and therefore is not the "bear" type].
There are lots of breeds that show this type of thing when you select for one color - you end up with a trait that "piggy backs" on that color selection. It's kinda interesting, especially when you start to consider a type of temperament as one of those traits.
----
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I wonder about the white shikokus.
We still need to pay for JKC registration. Nippo is optional but recommended, especially since our club is based off of Nippo standard. I will register all my Shikoku with Nippo, even future pups that I'll produce here in the States.
Heidi
- I've already mentioned shipping as "baggage" is $200 from Japan to California.
- Health check/Microchip about 10,000 yens
- additional fees included the $800 roundtrip airplane ticket to Japan and back home (I got lucky special discount in 2007! It's more expensive now...), $375 for roundtrip Tokyo-Kumamoto and back to Tokyo. Then $200 to ship puppy with me from Kumamoto to Tokyo.
- Then I think 4,000 yens for JKC/NIPPO registration??? I don't remember!
- I didn't bring a crate with me so I had to buy a 200 Medium Vari-kennel for about 15,000-20,000 yens and this was suppose to be "special price" -coughs-.
So roughly $2,905 in total costs.
Brad - Shipping costs (puppy traveling alone) probably just depend on airplane carriers, maybe some are cheaper and others more expensive then others -shrugs-.
---------------
Importing Shikoku as pets (non-breeders)
The benefit to importing Shikoku from Japan just as pets is that the puppy will live a much happier life. As I've said before Shikoku owners are hard to come by in Japan. When a home is found (in Japan), it is not always a good environment for puppy to grow up and live. Or maybe new owners will not be so good for said puppy. Sometimes breeders may not be comfortable selling puppy to this home. If a new, better home does not come along, sometimes they are "forced" to sell due to an already full house of dogs or economical reasons. This is life in Japan.
Man I gotta get my doggie in Japan lmao :P
Yes, many breeders care for their dogs. However, the mentality here is that "they" believe it unnesscessary to test healthy dogs. On the other hand, if the dog became sick or injured I'm sure they would do testings (if they can't find out the problem otherwse).
There was a bit of a misunderstanding, I had my friend ask my breeder about common health concerns within the Shikoku breed. For whatever reason (maybe because I purchased puppy from him) the breeder thought I was asking of his line and he says, "NO WAY, I DO NOT HAVE ANY BAD HEALTH DOGS." So I don't have to worry. He says no need to x-ray for hips, elbows or patella but I can if I want to.
I just left it at that. I will give him a call next year to give some more updates on my Shikoku. Then somehow clearly state my question appropriately to ask about other Shikoku lines to watch out for health concerns. Maybe next year I can speak with other Shikoku breeders, handlers and owners to find out what they say. I do have a phone number for another Shikoku breeder (also is Nippo judge). It's his working number, but I can call during business hours. We'll see!
-------------------
It is very interesting to see that the working lines in dogs tend be darker in color. As with the German Shepherd, there are 2 distinct showlines (American and West German). Then there is the working line, generally sable in color. Hmmm...
...now I'm curious to see what kind of changes may occur within my Shikoku line, once I start breeding. As I tend to breed more for working ability. I do like a working dog that is also pretty, however...I don't mind sacrificing some conformation for working enthics. As I can always get the conformation back in later generations.
Heidi - Nothing further to elaborate on the breeding of black and tan Shikoku. You stated it as I heard it. The color is expressed from some far-back pedigree line. Its traits are highly desirable. Tis' something else to ask breeders, handlers and owners.
I'm pretty certain though that although there aren't any known (least none that I know of) ill health effects of breeding white Shikoku, it is just simply not done. I guess there is nothing to gain from it, so it is not nesscessary.
As I understand it, there are 3 varieties of Shikoku and then several pedigree lines the branch out within them. So there are potientially "different" kinds of Shikoku. They are the same breed but unique unto themselves.
For Fun:
Hey, I know we can start breeding a new line and dub it as "Snow Shikoku" (for the white colorings)! I have way too much fun on this forum, lol. One of these days someone might take me seriously and come after me, epps! -runs-
----
As for my future Shikoku line, I'm interested in seeing what changes may occur period. As I'm concerned more about temperment/working enthics and less with conformation, since form follows function. Not all, but it seems that most Shikoku breeders in modern times seem to be more concerned about conformation then working enthics. So, it'll just be interesting to see any changes over all by breeding more for the working environment rather then the show ring.
Indeed, there does seem to be correlation between color and type within certain breeds, oddly enough. Of course, not always the same in the case between breeds but generally within a breed itself.
Prime example: I went to a seminar where the "speaker" came to a conclusion that the Merle corloring in Shelties seemed to carry with it an "uncordination because of depth perception". Now, nothing is written in stone, however...according to her many years of observation only dogs of this color would exhibit particular behaviors unknown to other colors of its breed. Food for thought.
There are different variations of GSD sable color tone from extremely light to very dark. There there are also "textures" from "faint" to "rich", which is color pigmentaion.
Common color descriptions: Light Sable, Red Sable, Black Sable.
Osy - No, white is not allowed on GSD. That, however, is the origin of the White Swiss Shepherd.
[ figured the thread is already off topic as it is ;p ]~
Also, I would not say that the red Shikoku's don't "work" well. I think that they do have a work ethic too. Mine has an incredible drive to hunt (really, really high hunting drive). I cannot even comment on how many squirrels, rabbits, possums, ground hogs he has killed that have wandered in the yard. He also is incredible smart about hunting, learning that if he hid and stayed stock still, he had a better opportunity of catching the prey vs running full force when the prey still had an escape route out of the yard.
Maybe what Brad was saying is that they are more "obedient and less willful" than the black sesames. I have no comparison (yet), so I cannot say. I will have a black sesame some time in the future (assuming a successful mating of Katja's dark Shikokus), so I can comment more then.
Let me clarify what I was trying to say...
I was not saying the red sesames are incapable of working, and obviously there will be exceptions to the rule. I have just noticed a trend that seems to indicate the black sesame Shikoku are "sharper" from a working standpoint.
Example: Loa is as good a hunter as any of our other dogs, she would make an OK hunting dog but she lacks the "sharpness" needed to really corner and bay an animal like a Boar. Loa would probably back away from the boar. Ahi on the other hand wouldn't back down from anything.
Also, if there is a rabbit on the other side of the fence, Loa will sit there and stalk it and want to get it. Ahi on the other hand will start tearing our fence apart trying to get to it.
I have noticed these types of things in other reds and blacks.
That is what I am talking about: "sharpness". Ahi will give it 110%, while Loa will give it 99%. That is a small difference, but if I were selecting for [original type of] workability [hunting/baying] I would choose Ahi over Loa.
On the other hand, if I wanted an obedience champion [which is another form of working] I would choose Loa - but, again, I was slanting my comments toward the breeds original intended use.
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Cliff - Yea, I feel the same way. I don't think there is a direct link between color and type... But I do think some elements of type may "piggy back" on color [or the other way around].
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