Sasuke's Blog update 7.17.09

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  • edited November -1
    Also, and I'm sure you covered this with your (certified?) behaviorist, but positive reinforcement goes a LONG long way with this breed - more than force, more than dominance theories, more than any other method - keeping it fun and positive is really the way to go.
  • edited November -1
    Yes she is certified, I made sure I did my homework and asked people at the dog park for their experiences too. I never have the heart to use force after all the readings I have read. I have noticed I can make him do anything with either treats or a toy, I'll let the physical corrections be done by other dogs at the park.
  • edited November -1
    Wow! Glad to hear he's made so much progress as it is! [ being able to stick your hand in his food bowl is HUGE! ] I'm sure the behaviorist will only help :)


    [ & my! He's getting big huh? ;) ] ~
  • edited November -1
    So here's a mini-update.

    Sasuke has been doing well. He hasn't had any incidents with me. I can 100% ask him to go to his crate and go to his bed and lie down without him growling. I still hand feed him and haven't tried petting him but I will later on.

    His puppy classes are doing great! His first class was a little weird. Sasuke at first started barking like crazy, which caused all the other dogs to bark. I tried to calm him down by giving him a stuffed kong and distracted him from everyone else. This worked great until 45 minutes into the class. Sasuke started to growl at me when I tried to take away his Kong and work on the exercises. I had to end the class early because Sasuke was frightening everyone. His second class went great! The instructor was very impressed on Sasuke's obedience progress (as well as a show-off to the other dogs lol). Because I know the instructor pretty well, she helps me outside of class. If his aggression does not diminish as quickly as we would like by the time our 6 week course is over, we are going to ask assistance from the head honcho on dog aggression in Gainesville.

    As for what he has learned, we've been drilling voluntarily attention quite heavily. This, as well as "watch me" is an awesome combination on pulling! I once I say, "watch me," Sasuke would stare at my face. We've gotten it down to 10 seconds before he looks away. The awesome part is when I start moving.. I can turn around 180 degrees and he would walk in a circle and sit while staring into my eyes. It's great! This also helps me when walking him because when he starts pulling, I would stop, then Sasuke would sit in front of me while looking at my face. For some reason, Sasuke does not pull when we go on hikes... He pulls when we are just walking outside the neighborhood.

    How long did it take before your dogs were able to poop/pee on cue? I've been waiting right before he pottied and said the command, but after two months, still no luck. It was horrible this morning because it was raining pretty hard.

    Other news: my neighbor owns an awesome local pet store and talked to him about Ruffwear. He did research on the brand and managed to become an authorized dealer!!! Because of me!!! And since I gave him the idea, he said he will give me a great deal whenever I need anything from Ruffwear. I can also look at the catalog and ask to order specific items. This is great because he will probably carry different sizes of the harnesses and backpacks... This means I can get a perfect fit the first try! Plus I get a massive discount! Yay!
  • edited November -1
    shiba DON"T poop or pee on cue. Especially in the rain. Make peace with it, and be proud of the rest of your progress.

    I commend you on your patience and hard work with Sasuke
  • edited November -1
    Ditto to Jessica's comments.
  • edited November -1
    Darn... There must be some technique that the show dog handlers use to make their dogs potty in strange places. On average, how long do you stay outside until you decide to call it quits and come back inside?

    Also, he started making digging motions in his crate and on his bed. I usually ignore his digging in the crate because I think he wants attention, but it's so darn annoying! I try to redirect him as much as possible when he starts trying to dig on his bed because I don't want him to destroy it but he keeps on at it. Any advice?
  • edited November -1
    The digging is a nesting thing. It is like asking you not to fluff a pillow when you get in bed.

    As far as technique, it is called patience and a willingness to walk off your property. My shiba Moto often needed to go a good few blocks before he was willing to pee. It is part of what you signed up for when you let a shiba move in. I have stood a good solid hour in the rain waiting for a poop because if I didn't he would walk right inside and poop on the guest room bed which was his rainy night poop spot.

    That is a shiba for you.
  • edited November -1
    Perhaps I'm lucky, but I don't bother waiting. Lucy and Joey know their routine and they know when they'll have a chance to potty. We go out, I wait for 3-5 minutes, then we come back in. If they go, great! If not, they get to hold it until the next opportunity.
  • edited November -1
    I tried that Dave, and Sasuke had his first accident when we tried it :(

    I thought maybe he doesn't want to go because he knows he will have to go inside after he does... does this logic apply?

    Or maybe it's like Jessica says and Shiba's are just that way.
  • edited November -1
    Congrats on progress & awesome discount! Always worth celebrating ;)


    I've actually read that before, Joe. That you should continue to walk your pup after they've done their business, this way they see doing their business as a way of getting a good walk. <-- If that made...any sense. haha ~
  • edited November -1
    Osy, I heard of that to, if you go directly home after they do their business it is almost like punishing them for pooping. They learn to hold it in so that way they can get a longer walk out of it. Same thing when playing in the backyard, they'll hold it in until the fun is over and piddle once they remember that they had to go.

    Joe, something that you can try if your having potty issues, try trotting or running with the pups. Sometimes they need the movement to, well, help give them movement, if you know what I mean. And once he does go, give him tons of praise to let him know that he has done a good thing.
  • edited November -1
    Trust me, its as Jessica said and Shibas are just that way!
    The digging, too. Its definitely nesting... Tsuki will do it for a good minute before circling for a minute before settling in.
  • edited November -1
    Sounds like Sasuke is doing really well. Shibas tend to like a good walk to pee. I'm currently dogsitting a female Shiba and she is way more picky than Nemo. We were walking a lot further than I wanted to today in the -5 windchill to get a pee out of her.
  • edited November -1
    Well this was weird today... Sasuke did his little nesting thing, then he peed right in the middle of his pet bed O.o I would rather let him pee on the carpet rather than the bed (just easier to clean).

    Thanks for the advice you all have given me. I'll use all of them! Is it common for Shibas to poo just once a day?
  • edited November -1
    what type of food do you feed? how much are you feeding per day? what time of day does he do the deed?

    Our shibas are pretty strictly grain free (save for treats people give them time to time), so they mostly are digesting all animal based proteins in a 65-70% ratio to 30-35% veg/fruit ratio. Only on kibble days they have a twice a day deed.
  • edited November -1
    Sake drops #2 bombs twice a day

    Miso once a day if he is not being stubborn.
  • edited November -1
    Bella does her deed once or twice a day, depending on the weather. Nola is almost always twice a day. (Unless it snows 12 inches, then she just goes once after freaking out about where to go!) Amazinly enough, I have taught Nola to pee on cue. However... it only works in our yard. Every where else, she is just too distracted.
  • edited March 2009
    I feed Sasuke Ori-jen puppy formula. He usually does his deed once a day, but he did not go yesterday. He went early this morning and I usually have to wait a few hours after dinner.

    He and Sushi get fed at 7AM and 5PMish. Sasuke gets 3/4 cup and sushi gets 1/4 each feeding.
  • edited March 2009
    So Sasuke had an episode today. I use his food as treats as he eats his meal. Right after he finished eating, I had him on a leash and brought him inside so we can get some ice. He started growling at my Yorkie and I had to keep the leash short before he can get to her. This was when Sasuke grabbed onto my arm and I had to push him off.

    We went in the lanai again and I told him to sit/stay while I get some ice for him. He did so and I gave him the ice... all was better like nothing ever happened.

    I will be contacting the head aggression behavioralist when my spring break is over.

    Here is today's war wound taken with my bro's 1.3mp phone.
  • edited November -1
    Sorry about the set back Joe! Little guy is bound to make a few mistakes along the way, he is still learning. Hang in there! ~
  • edited November -1
    Thanks for the encouragement, Osy <3

    I need to buy a new camera with my tax return money, but first a new mobo for my laptop -.-
  • edited March 2009
    Sasuke finished his Basic Obedience classes a few weeks ago! Yay. He was only one of two doggies that was able to sit/stay while the owners walked around them and kneeled behind them. He also won a prize for the most voluntary attentions performed in 30 seconds (9).

    After his classes, I started calling the several behavioralists in Gainesville and decided to settle with DEE ZURBURG We talked for probably two hours total discussing several steps we should take to keep Sasuke's aggression much more manageable. We decided on using a variation of the Ruff Love approach.

    Step one was for me to think if I would like to keep Sasuke on this program... It will be very intense with about 4 weeks or so for the first part of the actual program. I have called several other behavioralists but Dee made the most sense to me and is willing to work with me on my schedule without limitation on time, plus she spoke with me for hours to find a program that would work for Sasuke and me.

    Step two is for me to purchase a Gentle Leader. Dee would like Sasuke to be on a Gentle Leader to help me with his pulling as well as his jumping and other acts. She also requires me to keep him on a leash whenever we are in the house and in the crate whenever he needs to be alone.

    Step three is to completely change his opinion on reinforcement in life. Since Sasuke knows how to growl/bite and is very good at it. We need to make sure he does not have the opportunity to practice it. We will basically start from scratch-- to take everything that is near and dear to him and slowly reintroduce him to them by positive actions. This includes specialized treats. I will be using his meal (1.5 cups) throughout the day as his treats.... a few pieces of kibble each time.

    After I purchase Ruff Love I will call her back and tell her what I think about the book and the teaching methods and to see if I would like to continue through the program. Although the book is targeted towards receiving a faster time in the agility course, a lot of the techniques can be applied for his rehabilitation.

    I will also keep a journal of everything Sasuke and I have done for the day. For example, today's entry will include "raise lip because of putting my hand close to his face when staying."

    Apparently Dee heard of me and my efforts with Sasuke from my trainer. She described me as the hardest working individual who would do everything to give Sasuke a better life than he had. From our first 30 minutes of us just talking... I did not say my name, or Sasuke's, or his breed (she is pretty knowledgeable on Shiba Inus and their temperament too). While talking, she said, "Your Shiba Inu..." and I asked how she knew, and she said that the trainer has talked about Sasuke's problems. It was pretty cool!

    I'm so glad we are taking a giant positive step towards his behavior!
  • edited November -1
    Joe it sounds like things are on the right track with this behaviorist. I have not read the Ruff Love book but it sounds like a positive method with all of the treating throughout the day. Keep us updated on Sasuke's progress. It's not easy to take on a dog with behavior problems, your dedication is admirable.
  • edited November -1
    Joe,
    It takes an amazing kind of person to devote themselves to a dog in need like you have and I congratulate and commend you and Sasuke for all your efforts. Good luck with the training and I hope it works for the best!

    Keep us posted!
  • edited November -1
    Best of luck with Sasuke! His progress thus far is encouraging, I'm sure!
  • edited November -1
    This is awesome news Joe! Glad you found a behaviorist you like & is willing to work with you! I've not heard of Ruff Love, but if it focuses on positive reinforcement I think you can be pretty safe with it. Keep us updated! ~
  • edited November -1
    Kudos to you! Thanks so much for sharing and not giving up. The Ruff Love method in one degree or another has worked for us pretty well with quite a few rescues. So hang in with the program. I am so glad you found a trainer/behaviorist who is willing to work with you and your dog as a team in a reasonable and structured way that is safe for you both. I have found the Gentle Leader is pretty good for dogs with problems similar to what you are describing.

    Shibas can be a tough nut to crack at times but I am sure you will have some breakthroughs since you have direct hands on help. Take it one step at a time. Know that it sometimes seems toughest right before changes in behavior occur.
    With the Obedience under your belt you have some additional tools at your finger tips.

    Keep us posted with the progress!
    Snf

    PS: Feisty Fido by Patricia McConnell might be another book to investigate.....talk to your trainer/behaviorist about it and its application.
  • edited November -1
    I am sorry to hear about your setback, but I am so glad that you are getting help to help Sasuke through this. Thank you so much for not giving up on him!

    I wish you the best of luck as you and your behaviourist work through this. I am sure given the positive reintroduction of all things grand (at least in Sasuke's mind) will help establish positive behaviours. I have not read Ruff Love or heard about this method, but I may give it a read. Please keep us updated, and keep your head up. Sasuke is definitely worth it. :)
  • edited November -1
    So here is a journal I just sent his behavioralist... I'm not sure if anyone finds it interesting but...

    Signs of Aggression


    3/21- Gentle Leader- would stiffen and show teeth when walking. Will not walk, would show teeth when trying to put on leash to Gentle Leader
    Crate- threw kibble to crate then jumped on crate door while growling and bitting air
    other: showed teeth when I said “stay” and possibly showed command too close to face
    3/24- Showed teeth and bit air next to my lips when doing kissey noises at him
    While asking him to go to his crate, I said “crate” and while he was near his crate, I attempted to remove the leash but he nipped at my hand
    3/25- Did not growl at all when putting on the Gentle Leader. He was also not struggling when we walked (the leash was at his collar). Besides that, no aggression.
    3/26- Snapped at my hand when trying to remove collar when he was focused on oing in his crate
    raised lip when using the “stay” command about a foot or two from his face
    After sit/stay/ and down/stay exercises, he nipped at my hand when petting him after treat (my dumb mistake)
    growled and bit my hand when taking off leash close to the apartment door
    3/27- I began keeping his leash on 24/7 to avoid him growling when I tried to take it off.
    Growled and bit when standing up after we were sitting down after a few games of tug
    Ran in circles around me after he pottied (not sure if this is a sign of aggression but he continued running around me on the leash for about a minute straight.
    Snapped right when I was about to pick up the remote next to him.
    3/28- No signs of aggression
    3/29- No signs of aggression
    4/1- No signs of aggression
    4/3- Dog that was usually his friend and used to play with him growled and barked at him. I'm not sure who was the cause of this but it happened right after Sasuke jumped on him with his front paws
    Raised lip when using “stay” about 2-3 feet away
    Sasuke was finally walking fine with the Gentle Leader. He also let me put it on any time outside and right before leaving the apartment to go on a walk. When we got back indoors, he was very unresponsive and I asked him to go to his crate, which he did. After he went in his crate, I threw some kibble in but he stopped eating, turned around, and barked/bit/growled at me closing the door. This was the scariest time he has jumped on the door.
    4/4- No signs of aggression
    4/6-Sasuke rolled on me, then laid on his back while I pet him. Amanda asked if she could pet him and I did not see the problem in doing so. After a few seconds of her petting him, Sasuke turned around and attempted to bite her and snipped the air.
    4/7- Sasuke would bite at my pants when we were walking around the house. I'm not sure if this is a sign of aggression but I thought I would mention it. Although his occurrence of this has greatly diminished, this is first one in about a week.
    After working on the “close” command, he bit the air after I hand fed him some kibble while I was retracting my hand.
    4/8-I fell asleep while he was on leash and playing with his bone. I woke up with my little brother standing near him tying to fix the wires behind the television. Sasuke stopped chewing and stared at him. I immediately told my brother to move farther away.
    4/10- After doing the close/door exercise when I had him sit in his crate and stay until I closed the door, I attempted to close the bottom latch. We have been working little by little on closing the door and he allowed me to close the top latch with no problems. When closing the bottom latch, Sasuke lunged at the door, growling/barking/and biting at the door.
    4/11- Sasuke had one episode when I was closing the latch when he is in his crate. I gave him a little more kibble than I normally did so it could keep him occupied longer. While attempting the close the latches again a few seconds after throwing the kibble in, he lunged at the door. I tried using ice or his hollow bone stuffed with treats to make him turn around and not stare at the door, but none of these worked besides the actual food.
    4/12- Dad claims he saw his lip raise when I had to keep him away from chasing the cat at their house.
    Sasuke's leash was tangled between his legs. I tried to fix it but he snapped at my hand when trying to do so.
    Sasuke bit my sister's pant legs when she was walking past him. I tried to get his attention beforehand but was unsuccessful.
    Sasuke snapped at my sister when she was about to pet him when he was lying on the floor while I was petting him.
    4/13- Sasuke has been getting worse with closing the door. I tried to wait until he turned around before I closed the door. This also made him freeze and lunge at the door.
    4/14- Sasuke once again lunged at the door when I tried closing it. I believe when Sasuke hears the latches closing, that's when he freezes up. He doesn't seem to mind the squeeking noise when closing the door.
    Sasuke once again jumped on me after he pottied then ran in circles around me
    4/15- Sasuke took a very hard bite from my hand this morning. I currently have five bleeding teeth marks on my hand. I was petting him when I believed he was in a calm state far from his crate. He walked up to me, rolled between my legs, and had his stomach facing me. I then was petting him all over and giving him a massage while saying he was a good boy. When I went around to his neck, he took a big bite from my hand and I couldn't let him go. It took probably four seconds or so before he released his grip
    He growled very violently when I tried to close the door to his crate a few minutes later. He stopped eating, turned around, and ran to the door.
    I also received an e-mail from his previous owner today. His food aggression and crate problems started two weeks after they got him. They never forced him into his crate but he would growl when they closed the crate door.

    Stuff we have been working on:
    I have not yet tried the “gotcha” exercise, mainly because I am afraid he will bite me.
    We have been working on closing the latch door without any treats or any aggression but just recently he started acting up again.
    He is getting much better at the “close” command and will drop the tug toy after the first command about 70% of the time.
    We have been working on “leave it” but is pretty unresponsive to any commands outsides without first getting his attention with a treat.
    We are currently drilling his sit when approaching strangers. I was surprised that many people wanted to help us out by turning around and ignoring him if he tried to jump.
    Sasuke biting his leash while it was in the crate ceased.
    I have not tried putting on the Gentle Leader again after his very violent outbreak when I tried to close his crate latches.
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