You have been trying so hard to work it out and we commend you. It isn't easy or gratifying when behavior is unpredictable.
There is a lot going on with Sasuke and it is good you are recording that but you really need a certified professional behaviorist to continue to work with you. The events have to be observed first hand and the nuances all taken in directly before a solid plan of action can be implemented. Unfortunately the forum environment does not lend itself to be able to give you fully what you guys need. Rather than steer you wrong and make things worse go back to your professional for direct hands on.
Sasuke is a tough customer and you need a good selling plan to work the kinks out. Your trainer/behaviorist is the person who can give you the edge you need.
Oh I forgot to ask ... Have you taken Susuke to the vet for some additional medical checks or has he had recent new vaccinations such as lyme? Has his thyroid levels been checked recently and has he been neutered?? Again I don't recall if you mentioned any of this earlier so forgive me if they are redundant.
Medical checks at the vet? I have not checked out his thyroid levels but the last time we went to the vet, we had his distemper booster, deworming, and other things. Should his thyroid level be of concern?
When I met the behavioralist about two weeks ago, she said that Sasuke was going to get worse before he gets better-- mainly because I took away everything that is near and dear to him and because everything used to come so easy to him before. She also said to try and avoid things that lead him to be aggressive so he would not get practice doing the behavior. I also procrastinated this e-mail to her and dropped my spare phone in the pool (dumb friends for pushing me in).
There is also a medical behavioralist in the University who uses medicinal treatments, but we believe this may not be needed and his problems are more psychological.
Right now, we are establishing a more stronger relationship before we can begin attacking certain inappropriate behaviors.
on a lighter note: I taught Sasuke how to perform the shoryuken from Street Fighter... he would vertical jump at eye level and spin with his nose pointing straight up. lol
Just curious, but did Sasuke ever do the 'air biting' thing ever again? Sometimes flybiting can be linked to medical issues. Did the air biting look anything like this?:
Granted, these owners are being total idiots by 'training' their dog to do this, but this is what some dogs do during seizures.
No, it was never anything that intense. When I say air biting, he usually "misses" like I pull my hand away very quickly and he bites once. It is usually followed by him showing teeth directed at me or whoever. He does try to catch the hair and dust that float around his face, but but not regularly. I've also watched him and he does seem focused on the floating matter pretty interestedly. I do think he is a little obsessive compulsive but I need to talk to the behavioralist if this might be of concern.
Well, she recommends me to speak to Dr. Curtis, a UF Veterinary drug specialist to see if his OCD is of concern and if drugs are needed.... The only thing is she charges $300 for a 1.5hr visit and I do not have that kind of money laying around at this moment. My behavioralist says she will be with me if I decide to go that route.
I spoke with my behavioralist several times this past week and she was really afraid when I said Sasuke bit me and held on for a few seconds because it is a really, really bad sign. We are also concerned that he will stop eating, turn around, and growl at the crate door when I try to close it. She really wants me to put Sasuke on the Gentle Leader to keep him more manageable.
As for the crate door, since Sasuke continues to turn around and lunge at the door, she asked me to close the door while Sasuke is in the sit/stay position. I am having Amanda hold the leash through the back of the crate so he cannot get to me. If he shows any signs of aggression, I am to say, "too bad," turn around, count to ten, then attempt to do it again. Our goal is to get Sasuke used to me closing the door, like is is used to me throwing the treats in. This is scary as hell, but if it helps Sasuke get better, then it is a chance I am willing to take.
Sasuke lashing out at me basically means that he is pissed that he is no longer getting what he wants in life. I also not allowed to pet him for the next week because he needs to earn it. When he does get this privilage back, I am to avoid his neck because it is a potential trigger. I basically need to play it smart and read his signs easier (kinda hard when he goes straight to a bite).
Joe, your dedication is amazing and wonderful and even though it may not seem like it you are doing a great thing for Sasuke. It takes time and patience and consistency and I aplaud you for your amazing efforts.
In my experience (which granted is limited), behaviorists are not very quick to suggest you look into medication. She would not be recommending you speak with a veterinarian if she didn't believe it was in Sasuke's and your best interest. If you can scrape together the money for the visit, it may prove well worth it. I know it has in Joey's case.
Either way, keep up the good work. It's great to hear you've got a plan. I'm looking forward to future updates!
So, we are still sticking to the plan, but Sasuke has been off and on on improvements. He recently chewed through his Gentle Leader as well. I spoke with our Behavioralist today and she is not quite sure why he is still having his incidents, namely going after my mother. We were driving when my mother had to turn around and get something from the back. I had Sasuke tethered to my door panel and Sasuke snapped and almost bit my mother. Of course she told me, "you need to get him better or else he needs to go" and other unsupportive sentences along those lines. I'm afraid that he might have been able to bite her if she did not pull her hand away so quickly. It appears that Sasuke has been going from a normal state to a high state of aggression (straight to biting without warning signs), but we need to stop this.
We finally got him to stop lashing at the door! I basically just let him sit/stay in his crate and let him growl/bark/bite at the crate door while I kept my hand at the latches. I continued closing the latch when he stops causing a tantrum little by little. At the end, he gets cookies! I just needed to do this three days and now I am confident on closing the crate door at any speed. This is awesome!
Now for the experiment we might be trying. Because we were so successful at closing the crate door, our behavioralist asked if we wanted to put a muzzle on Sasuke and act like he is a normal dog. Of course he will continue to bite and growl but he cannot hurt me so I will just let him do so. Hopefully this will show him that I mean no threat to him and me touching him is a good thing. The behavioralist also said she has never tried this before, mainly because people go straight to the medications.
I will also check his thyroid and do a CBC test. I'm going to ask different vets on prices and procedures before I do this. I also need to wait until after my birthday (5/19). Hopefully I can get some birthday money to help! I am going to try everything to the best of my abilities to make Sasuke better. I will use the medications only if I have to.
Does anyone have any experiences with the muzzle thing? What are some good muzzles? Our behavioralist said the Greyhound muzzles is probably best because Sasuke would still be able to eat, drink, and pant... He just won't be able to bite.
It's great that Sasuke is improving, and I'm sorry he still has his moments. With that snapping at your mom in the car, sounds almost like he didn't want anyone near 'his space'. My sister's schipperke is like that, generally he does not like being touched or have anyone too close. He may or may not give warning before going ballistic. I understand how it feels, emotionally, to have stuff like this happen; but hang in there, you are doing a wonderful thing.
An idea, since he is still having issues with people, but why not have your mom(or someone) just sit on the couch and throw high value treats towards him while avoiding eye contact. This may help him associate people with good things.
Here's a thread talking abut an interesting muzzle (that kind of reminds me of 'silence of the lambs'):
I am a little concerned that behaviorist doesn't understand why he snapped at your mom. A tethered animal is (in their mind) a cornered confined animal. If he is already nervous (some dogs get very anxious in the car), confined, and someone who is not to fond of him (as it sounds like your mother is) is reaching in his direction, he is going to lash out. Take some comfort, he COULD have bitten her. He is WAY faster than your mother ever is/was/will ever be. So he DID warn her. Chewing through his harness sounds like another attempt at freeing himself from confinement. He sounds clearly very anxious. Like he needs confidence building exercises, and some safe places. Have you read Feisty Fido by Patricia McConnell? It deals specifically with leash aggression which sounds like your biggest hurdle may be. And while this may not be what you want to hear, I would suggest possibly talking to another behaviorist. The signs sound fairly obvious through your post, and if she is not giving you effective insight, perhaps it is time to seek out someone who can. I am not a big fan of the muzzle suggestion either. But if you do decide to do a muzzle. Ease him into it. put treats near it. Then in it. And give him treats while wearing it. If you force him to wear it you will further prove to him that you ARE a threat.
I have been lurking around the forums but haven't really signed in for awhile... I am still here though and pretty up to date with the posts. Don't think I forgot about you guys
It's been quite awhile since my last post on Sasuke. So much has been going on and have been working on multiple projects throughout the summer.
So I think Sasuke plateaued. He is not getting better, but I have a feeling he can get worse. We are continuing the same exercises (still at stage one in the plan) with minor tweaks when we find something is not constantly working. We were supposed to continue in our plan whenever we get one month of aggression free behaviors, but I cannot go one week without seeing at least a lip raise. He also got his crate aggression back, so I will probably try using an X-pen whenever I can figure out how to make one or purchase one one sale. After months of not petting Sasuke, I started to pet him again because he was improving a little so I started giving him more privileges. After one incident with the cat food, I had to take his privileges away again, so we are back to stage one. I also boosted his exercise.
I did not try the muzzle idea mainly because Dee, my behavioralist, spoke with another behavioralist, Angelica, and found that her dog's, (tic-tac's), behavior still remained. Angelica also found out that her dog had Sasuke's same symptoms. He would be a perfectly happy dog one minute then aggressive another minute. What she ended doing was putting her dog on medication and he became a "normal" dog, but if Tic-Tac did not have his medication, he would be aggressive again. She knows Tic-Tac would have to be on medication for the rest of his life, and although it might risk liver problems, it would be a risk she was willing to take as long as Tic-Tac could have a long life being a "normal" dog. When Dee spoke to her about Sasuke's condition and how it echoed Tic-Tac's, she said, "That dog needs to be on meds."
I might just buy a muzzle for the safety of my family and others.
All is not lost though! We found a vet who is also close to getting a degree on animal behavior. This is great because it is rare finding someone who is a specialist on both drugs and behavior. Usually vets will tell us to use drugs, and behavioralists says drugs are not needed. The doctor would be able to tell us if we are doing great and we should keep doing what we are doing or if we need medication. I have been meaning to take Sasuke to her but I currently do not have money to do so. She also requires video of Sasuke's behavior and how I interact with him at home, but I do not have a camera to do so (long story). I have saved my pennies and will purchase a camera and take Sasuke to the vet in early August.
If all goes well, I hope to give you guys excellent news after his vet visit!
I also might make his video a little more professional and send it to Victoria Stillwell. I just watched her 15 worse cases and Sasuke's case imho is much more interesting than those on the show.
One last thing: I found that with the Gentle Leader and backpack/harness, he is much more well behaved. He also does not run as fast and is more mellow than when I have his collar on. I see a significant change in behavior. On walks with rollerblades, he can keep up and surpass me for long periods of time with his collar, but when I put his Leader or Harness, it's hard to get him to gallop. I feel like he's a timebomb at times.
Wow, poor Sasuke and poor you, but it's great your trying so hard to try to make him a happier dog.
I understand how you feel, my sister's schipperke is the same way. He's got the Jekyll/Hyde personality, growls and bites everyone, food/toy/location aggression, can't look at him, can't touch him most of the time, his anxiety level is through the roof and he bullies the cats and other dogs. But even after all those scars, we still love him (and I hate my sister for not trying and just making excuses).
I remember hearing on another thread, but I forget who said it, a comment on how when they took their pups off of the fish oil/omega-3 supplements that the dog had become more anxious or reactive or something(I forget). But once they put the pups back on it, the pups had become calmer and back to what they were used to. Maybe you can try a fish oil supplement and see if that supplementation might mellow him out a bit.
Wasn't there an episode on "It's Me or The Dog" where Victoria Stillwell mentioned that carrots and wild rice are considered "happy" foods to give to a dog because they increase tryptophan (someone can correct me if I'm wrong on which foods she pointed out)?
There's a study done that says a lower-moderate protein diet combined with an intake of natural tryptophan can decrease "aggression", "guarding" and "hyperactivity". I put them in quotes because in the study these terms were not defined, only used. So, you [Victoria] has got a point, Jesse!
Comments
There is a lot going on with Sasuke and it is good you are recording that but you really need a certified professional behaviorist to continue to work with you. The events have to be observed first hand and the nuances all taken in directly before a solid plan of action can be implemented. Unfortunately the forum environment does not lend itself to be able to give you fully what you guys need. Rather than steer you wrong and make things worse go back to your professional for direct hands on.
Sasuke is a tough customer and you need a good selling plan to work the kinks out. Your trainer/behaviorist is the person who can give you the edge you need.
Snf
Snf
Medical checks at the vet? I have not checked out his thyroid levels but the last time we went to the vet, we had his distemper booster, deworming, and other things. Should his thyroid level be of concern?
When I met the behavioralist about two weeks ago, she said that Sasuke was going to get worse before he gets better-- mainly because I took away everything that is near and dear to him and because everything used to come so easy to him before. She also said to try and avoid things that lead him to be aggressive so he would not get practice doing the behavior. I also procrastinated this e-mail to her and dropped my spare phone in the pool (dumb friends for pushing me in).
There is also a medical behavioralist in the University who uses medicinal treatments, but we believe this may not be needed and his problems are more psychological.
Right now, we are establishing a more stronger relationship before we can begin attacking certain inappropriate behaviors.
on a lighter note: I taught Sasuke how to perform the shoryuken from Street Fighter... he would vertical jump at eye level and spin with his nose pointing straight up. lol
Did the air biting look anything like this?:
Granted, these owners are being total idiots by 'training' their dog to do this, but this is what some dogs do during seizures.
I spoke with my behavioralist several times this past week and she was really afraid when I said Sasuke bit me and held on for a few seconds because it is a really, really bad sign. We are also concerned that he will stop eating, turn around, and growl at the crate door when I try to close it. She really wants me to put Sasuke on the Gentle Leader to keep him more manageable.
As for the crate door, since Sasuke continues to turn around and lunge at the door, she asked me to close the door while Sasuke is in the sit/stay position. I am having Amanda hold the leash through the back of the crate so he cannot get to me. If he shows any signs of aggression, I am to say, "too bad," turn around, count to ten, then attempt to do it again. Our goal is to get Sasuke used to me closing the door, like is is used to me throwing the treats in. This is scary as hell, but if it helps Sasuke get better, then it is a chance I am willing to take.
Sasuke lashing out at me basically means that he is pissed that he is no longer getting what he wants in life. I also not allowed to pet him for the next week because he needs to earn it. When he does get this privilage back, I am to avoid his neck because it is a potential trigger. I basically need to play it smart and read his signs easier (kinda hard when he goes straight to a bite).
Either way, keep up the good work. It's great to hear you've got a plan. I'm looking forward to future updates!
We finally got him to stop lashing at the door! I basically just let him sit/stay in his crate and let him growl/bark/bite at the crate door while I kept my hand at the latches. I continued closing the latch when he stops causing a tantrum little by little. At the end, he gets cookies! I just needed to do this three days and now I am confident on closing the crate door at any speed. This is awesome!
Now for the experiment we might be trying. Because we were so successful at closing the crate door, our behavioralist asked if we wanted to put a muzzle on Sasuke and act like he is a normal dog. Of course he will continue to bite and growl but he cannot hurt me so I will just let him do so. Hopefully this will show him that I mean no threat to him and me touching him is a good thing. The behavioralist also said she has never tried this before, mainly because people go straight to the medications.
I will also check his thyroid and do a CBC test. I'm going to ask different vets on prices and procedures before I do this. I also need to wait until after my birthday (5/19). Hopefully I can get some birthday money to help! I am going to try everything to the best of my abilities to make Sasuke better. I will use the medications only if I have to.
Does anyone have any experiences with the muzzle thing? What are some good muzzles? Our behavioralist said the Greyhound muzzles is probably best because Sasuke would still be able to eat, drink, and pant... He just won't be able to bite.
An idea, since he is still having issues with people, but why not have your mom(or someone) just sit on the couch and throw high value treats towards him while avoiding eye contact. This may help him associate people with good things.
Here's a thread talking abut an interesting muzzle (that kind of reminds me of 'silence of the lambs'):
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1860&page=1#Item_17
Take some comfort, he COULD have bitten her. He is WAY faster than your mother ever is/was/will ever be. So he DID warn her.
Chewing through his harness sounds like another attempt at freeing himself from confinement.
He sounds clearly very anxious. Like he needs confidence building exercises, and some safe places.
Have you read Feisty Fido by Patricia McConnell? It deals specifically with leash aggression which sounds like your biggest hurdle may be.
And while this may not be what you want to hear, I would suggest possibly talking to another behaviorist. The signs sound fairly obvious through your post, and if she is not giving you effective insight, perhaps it is time to seek out someone who can.
I am not a big fan of the muzzle suggestion either. But if you do decide to do a muzzle. Ease him into it. put treats near it. Then in it. And give him treats while wearing it. If you force him to wear it you will further prove to him that you ARE a threat.
It's been quite awhile since my last post on Sasuke. So much has been going on and have been working on multiple projects throughout the summer.
So I think Sasuke plateaued. He is not getting better, but I have a feeling he can get worse. We are continuing the same exercises (still at stage one in the plan) with minor tweaks when we find something is not constantly working. We were supposed to continue in our plan whenever we get one month of aggression free behaviors, but I cannot go one week without seeing at least a lip raise. He also got his crate aggression back, so I will probably try using an X-pen whenever I can figure out how to make one or purchase one one sale. After months of not petting Sasuke, I started to pet him again because he was improving a little so I started giving him more privileges. After one incident with the cat food, I had to take his privileges away again, so we are back to stage one. I also boosted his exercise.
I did not try the muzzle idea mainly because Dee, my behavioralist, spoke with another behavioralist, Angelica, and found that her dog's, (tic-tac's), behavior still remained. Angelica also found out that her dog had Sasuke's same symptoms. He would be a perfectly happy dog one minute then aggressive another minute. What she ended doing was putting her dog on medication and he became a "normal" dog, but if Tic-Tac did not have his medication, he would be aggressive again. She knows Tic-Tac would have to be on medication for the rest of his life, and although it might risk liver problems, it would be a risk she was willing to take as long as Tic-Tac could have a long life being a "normal" dog. When Dee spoke to her about Sasuke's condition and how it echoed Tic-Tac's, she said, "That dog needs to be on meds."
I might just buy a muzzle for the safety of my family and others.
All is not lost though! We found a vet who is also close to getting a degree on animal behavior. This is great because it is rare finding someone who is a specialist on both drugs and behavior. Usually vets will tell us to use drugs, and behavioralists says drugs are not needed. The doctor would be able to tell us if we are doing great and we should keep doing what we are doing or if we need medication. I have been meaning to take Sasuke to her but I currently do not have money to do so. She also requires video of Sasuke's behavior and how I interact with him at home, but I do not have a camera to do so (long story). I have saved my pennies and will purchase a camera and take Sasuke to the vet in early August.
If all goes well, I hope to give you guys excellent news after his vet visit!
I also might make his video a little more professional and send it to Victoria Stillwell. I just watched her 15 worse cases and Sasuke's case imho is much more interesting than those on the show.
One last thing: I found that with the Gentle Leader and backpack/harness, he is much more well behaved. He also does not run as fast and is more mellow than when I have his collar on. I see a significant change in behavior. On walks with rollerblades, he can keep up and surpass me for long periods of time with his collar, but when I put his Leader or Harness, it's hard to get him to gallop. I feel like he's a timebomb at times.
I understand how you feel, my sister's schipperke is the same way. He's got the Jekyll/Hyde personality, growls and bites everyone, food/toy/location aggression, can't look at him, can't touch him most of the time, his anxiety level is through the roof and he bullies the cats and other dogs. But even after all those scars, we still love him (and I hate my sister for not trying and just making excuses).
I remember hearing on another thread, but I forget who said it, a comment on how when they took their pups off of the fish oil/omega-3 supplements that the dog had become more anxious or reactive or something(I forget). But once they put the pups back on it, the pups had become calmer and back to what they were used to. Maybe you can try a fish oil supplement and see if that supplementation might mellow him out a bit.
Aha, found the link on her messageboard, Reactive dog recommended a rice and carrot supplement to diet.
Jesse
I put them in quotes because in the study these terms were not defined, only used.
So, you [Victoria] has got a point, Jesse!