Nihon Ken Breed Differences
Sparked by a post that Brade made in the other thread.
Brad said, "I just wanted to point out that these breeds are all very different in many many ways (probably in more ways than they are similar)."
Methinks we all agree that our precious nihon ken share the following similarities;
- Typical Physical Spitz Characteristics [ curled tails, pricked ears, blow coat, etc. ]
- Very High Prey Drive
- Active dogs [ hiking, hunting, tracking, etc. ]
- All are fairly clean
- No real doggy odor
- Not really off-leash dogs
But what breed differences really make each their own? [ other than physical attributes ] For example, anyone can tell by just looking the major physical differences between the 6 breeds, but what about the subtle differences in temperament?
I know, for example, Kai tend to be "one person" dogs & Shiba tend to be more independent. But what other differences are there between the 6 different breeds?
The reason I ask is because unless you've owned / lived / been around these dogs long enough, it can be difficult to know the differences unless outright told.
Many people here are looking for a nihon ken, whether it be their first, or just adding to the pack, but many are also not sure of which breed to get. Methinks if we can discuss some of the differences between each it can really help with the decision making process
Come on guys! Share your knowledge! ;D
[ note; just to clarify, this should be a discussion on differences between the 6 japanese spitz breeds; Shikoku, Kai, Akita, Shiba, Hokkaido, & Kishu. NOT the difference between Nihon Ken & OTHER breeds. ] ~
Brad said, "I just wanted to point out that these breeds are all very different in many many ways (probably in more ways than they are similar)."
Methinks we all agree that our precious nihon ken share the following similarities;
- Typical Physical Spitz Characteristics [ curled tails, pricked ears, blow coat, etc. ]
- Very High Prey Drive
- Active dogs [ hiking, hunting, tracking, etc. ]
- All are fairly clean
- No real doggy odor
- Not really off-leash dogs
But what breed differences really make each their own? [ other than physical attributes ] For example, anyone can tell by just looking the major physical differences between the 6 breeds, but what about the subtle differences in temperament?
I know, for example, Kai tend to be "one person" dogs & Shiba tend to be more independent. But what other differences are there between the 6 different breeds?
The reason I ask is because unless you've owned / lived / been around these dogs long enough, it can be difficult to know the differences unless outright told.
Many people here are looking for a nihon ken, whether it be their first, or just adding to the pack, but many are also not sure of which breed to get. Methinks if we can discuss some of the differences between each it can really help with the decision making process
Come on guys! Share your knowledge! ;D
[ note; just to clarify, this should be a discussion on differences between the 6 japanese spitz breeds; Shikoku, Kai, Akita, Shiba, Hokkaido, & Kishu. NOT the difference between Nihon Ken & OTHER breeds. ] ~
Comments
I'm curious to know about the breeds I don't know too much about, namely the Ryuukyuu (hokkaido), Kishu, and Kai. I'm sure that all the native Japanese spitze also share the same not-so-biddable characteristic, just to varying degrees.. ie., none are so eager to please as a happy lab can be, just for the hell of it.
Jesse
As well as to see, are there breed characteristics that are very strong in each breed? ~
Jesse
I think with Shiba, maybe Akita, we have a diverse enough group to gauge... maybe slightly with Kai and Shikoku.. but with the Kishu and Hokkaido, how can we ever really tell without a large group of many different dogs?
I'm not looking for an exact list, but what the major qualities are in each breed that sets them apart. What makes a Kai so different than a Shika? What makes a Hokka different? Kishu? Shiba? Akita? ~
I can give some insight on Shikoku based on my current duo and my impression of other Shikoku I have met.
I *might* be able to give some comparison between Shiba & Shikoku...however, it's very generalistic (is this even a word? I think I made up a new vocab! Where are the English majors?!). So it might be a more incomplete comparison considering I have yet to live with a Shiba or any other Japanese breeds (I say "yet"...because remember, I may do fostering!).
I'm sure there are others who can give more insight. I think most have 2 kinds of Nihon Ken (i.e. Shiba & Akita, Akita & Shikoku, Hokkaido & Shiba, Shiba & Shikoku, Shiba & Kai, Kai & Shikoku, etc).
Give me a few more years and I'm sure I'll be able to make a much better comparison between Shikoku, Kai, Shiba & Akita...all based on personal experience. Kishu & Hokkaido would be difficult...I highly doubt I'd be fostering either one unless it's a rescue dog imported from Japan! Where are our Kishu & Hokkarido members?! I know you're lurking out there...somewhere. We need more insight -smiles-.
Seems like we do this thread every couple of months. Its a thread that has stars, and extras. To be a star in this thread, you need to save up your pennies and build your pack! Because only the folks who actually have dogs of more than one nihonken breed can give you the perspective the rest of us want to hear.
I am very hopeful that one day, I will be the authority on what it's like to have a female Kishu and a male Shikoku in one's pack. Almost halfway there!
"ie., none are so eager to please as a happy lab can be, just for the hell of it."
hmmmmm I've owned labs....now Koda's a pup but I think he would do anything for the hell of it to please me.
Also, methinks you dont HAVE to have owned these breeds to give information. Someone, can, for example, have resources & a ton of info without having owned ne of the breeds. Furthermore, even if you just have one of the breeds, you can list the traits strongest & someone else can list the traits for another breed, & then we have comparisons to make, see? ~
Some defining features I would say reflect my group of Shibas that I meet regularly (breeder dogs, dogs at shows, other people's house pet Shibas for playdates and my own pets) are:
-Aloof
-Clownish
-Guarded with strangers
-Will bark or bay for a percieved threat but are not yappers
-*Coy*
-Friendly at arms length and on their own terms
-Always alert
-Unmoveable-they appear to grip the very earth at times like a sumo
-*Feral*
-Stately
-Dislike restraint and confinement as a rule with the exception of crates or other denlike places (under beds, bookshelves, sofas)
-Nimble
-Quick to pick up on obedience commands but very challenging to keep interested-these dogs are thinkers and would rather blow you off most of the time
-Won't usually work for simple praise
-Poor focus starting out, this requires a great deal of work to develop and maintain throughout the dogs life
-Strong desire to give chase to small game like birds, rabbits and cats-will totally ignore commands (and cars) at that point
-Moderate exercise requirements, can participate in more vigourous activities like Lure, Agility, Rally, etc, or even a daily jog and hike, but seem happiest with routine daily walks.
-Chewing-moderate, not very dedicated but can be sneaky
-Can be screamers
-Walking habits-prefer to be out in front or sweeping back and forth exploring
-Best in male/female combo or in same sex combo as long as raised together
-Often sight/sound, strange dog reactive and need time to adapt to new things
-Loyalty-would let you drown
-The dogs that show have superb temperments-very outgoing, steady, waging tails and smiley faces
Then you take into account the differences in temperament from bloodline to bloodline... Also, as Jen pointed out, there are such variety in dog personalities anyway.
I will give my input tho; we have 4 Akita, 1 Kai, 2 Shiba, and 2 Shikoku. This is all based on my personal experience living with our dogs...
(rated on a scale of 0-5; where 0 is nonexistent, 1 is a very weak/low trait/quality, and 5 is a very strong/high trait/quality)
Aloofness
Akita: 1.5
Kai: 4.5
Shiba: 3
Shikoku: 3.5
Shyness
Akita: 2
Kai: 3
Shiba: 1
Shikoku: 2
Energy level
Akita: 1
Kai: 3
Shiba: 3.5
Shikoku: 4
Strength (relative to size)
Akita: 3
Kai: 4
Shiba: 2
Shikoku: 3
Endurance
Akita: 1
Kai: 5
Shiba: 3
Shikoku: 4
Ease of Training
Akita: 2
Kai: 1.5
Shiba: 3
Shikoku: 4
Reactiveness
Akita: 2
Kai: 4
Shiba: 3
Shikoku: 4
Prey drive
Akita: 2
Kai: 4
Shiba: 4
Shikoku: 5
Defensive drive (read as "watchdog-ness")
Akita: 2
Kai: 4
Shiba: 2
Shikoku: 3
Versatility
Akita: 4
Kai: 3
Shiba: 4
Shikoku: 3
Workability
Akita: 2
Kai: 4
Shiba: 1.5
Shikoku: 4
Companionship
Akita: 4
Kai: 2
Shiba: 4
Shikoku: 3
Outdoorsy-ness
Akita: 1
Kai: 5
Shiba: 2
Shikoku: 4.5
Anxiety/Drive
Akita: 3
Kai: 4
Shiba: 2
Shikoku: 3.5
Refinement
Akita: 5
Kai: 1
Shiba: 4
Shikoku: 2
Willingness to be touched
Akita: 4
Kai: 2
Shiba: 3
Shikoku: 2.5
Let me know if there are any other qualities you want me to rate, IMHO.
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As for your questions...
Brad, just curious, but how would you define 'shyness'? Like does it have to do with the fact that the dog takes longer to trust you, or it's ability to not like being touched. Or is it how they don't generally just walk up to a stranger and greet like they know the person, or would you consider this 'aloofness'.
>> I define shyness the way I would define it for a person, in a public place or when put on the spot, it's an indicator as to how outgoing the dog is.
If so, then how would you define 'aloofness'?
>> IMHO, aloofness doesn't apply to interactions with strangers. When gaging an interaction with a stranger I would call it "shyness" and not aloofness. Aloofness, to me, is how a dog behaves (generally) when around his/her family. It's rare for a dog/person to be shy around their (immediate) family but they can certainly be aloof (like for a person: staying in your room instead of being in the living room with the rest of your fam, or a dog: laying across the room by themselves and not on the floor next to you).
That's just my opinion. The term "shy" or "shyness" is a term used to describe people so it may not be the correct term to use when describing a dog. Maybe I should change it to "confidence" and invert the results. (???)
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Also, my opinions are relative to the Nihonken Breeds and not other dog breeds.
Tara, you are kinda pointing out the negative things about the Kai Ken that I rated above. IMHO, the Kai Ken rates highly in a lot of GREAT qualities too (that are listed above) like:
Energy level
Strength
Endurance
Prey drive
Workability
Outdoorsiness
These are all traits I value very high and why the Kai is my favorite Nihonken breed. Others may have spent time with Kai that are very different from the ones I have spent time with (I have met around 15 Kai Ken), or have not spent time with many Kai at all, and so you may have a differing opinion to my own.
You point out that I rated the Kai Ken as having higher anxiety than the other Nihonken, but that is an indicator of drive in a dog and without drive a dog cannot be a good hunter - and the Kai is (at it's core) a hunting breed.
Also a good hunting dog needs to have both a high prey-drive and high defensive-drive... Their defensive drive equates to fear, and fear is what keeps dogs alive when working independently (like tracking wild boar).
So, I don't really think the Kai Ken traits you pointed out should be perceived as negative (or surprising). The traits are simply qualities of a dog breed designed to preform a specific and complex task (like tracking and baying wild boar and deer).
(In other words, Kai Ken are not meant to be companion dogs, they are hunting dogs)
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I did however pick up on the negative more so than the positive, and you were right to correct me on that.
Sorry if it read as an attack by me, not my intention at all!
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And of course I have no other Nihon Ken breeds to compare them to, only what I've vicariously lived through on this forum..
I dunno, maybe I'm reading too much into this thread, but knowing all the individual dogs of the same breed as I do/did.. I still have nothing to 'rate' because they are/were ALL so different. I've read those few books out there on the Shiba Inu, the traits and comparisons to other common dog breeds.. even reading them now I'm like "well, mine like water", "well these three seemed to bark quite a bit" and "well, these ones enjoy other dogs". And I'm sure even if I had lived with 100 of them, the result would still be - I have no idea what to tell you!
I think the only way we can come up with a "differences list" is to be more general and focus on traits that are less affected by the dog's upbringing and environment, like: prey drive, workability, aloofness, energy level, and so on. That is, at least, what I tried to do with my list.
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Could one say that levels of aloofness (not sure maybe this is just breed?), willingness to be touched, shyness, ease of training, and companionship vary from dog to dog based on the home dynamic and socialization? How much is nature and how much is determined by nurture?