[I'm suppose to be sleeping (working tomorrow morning! Erm...maybe it's now today! lol), but I couldn't resist at least not typing a "small" response.]
All dogs, as individuals, have their personalities, little quirks, likes & dislikes, however a "generalization" I think would be like a "majority rules" kind of thing. Trying to find "common ground" in a "group", in this case "specific breeds", of dogs.
"I think the only way we can come up with a "differences list" is to be more general and focus on traits that are less affected by the dog's upbringing and environment, like: prey drive, workability, aloofness, energy level, and so on. That is, at least, what I tried to do with my list."
I agree with Brad on perhaps focusing on qualities such as these. I mean...there's always room for "modification"...trying to increase or decrease a certain drive. However, reguardless of what one does with the dog...there are certain things about that breed that are always gonna be there. That's what makes a breed, a "breed" - aside from the physical attributes. It's what self-motivates the dog genetically.
Why do we pick the breeds that we do? It's generally cause there's just something or things so unique about this particular group of dog that attracts us.
Here's a crazy thought for another "list"...for those who currently own Nihon Ken...and for those planning on getting a Nihon Ken. WHY?
- What attracted you to the breed/these breeds? - Was it strictly just the physical characteristics of the dog? <--- It's <i>okay if this was your main reason, don't be afraid, lol. We are all "suckers' for cute dogs! - Maybe a certain quaility that took your interest? - What do you/did you hope to gain from this dog/these dogs? - (anything else you'd like to add, please do!)
[I need to go to sleep sleeps now! lol...I should have some free forum time tomorrow night...erm...later tonight! Happy discussion!]
I deleted this from my first post, and I guess I shouldn't have, but Brad made an excellent point. The bulk majority of the Shiba that I meet often (at shows, at peoples homes, at work) and get to spend 1:1 time with are nearly all related and have been reared among the same group of people with the same sets of intentions when it comes to rearing Shibas. That probably has a huge influence on certain temperment traits. A lot are puppy mill and BYB, however, not just breeder dogs, so I think it's a fairly decent representation. That's my perception anyway.
Someone would probably have to own a dozen unrelated dogs of all the breeds in order to give a somewhat good comparison!
I think we should be clear to mean mature temperament, as puppies of all kinds behave differently than mature dogs. It may seem weird- "wait a minute, my 8 month old loves strangers/other dogs" - puppies just tend to be more social.
I got a lot of perspective from some Jean Donaldson book on my shelf (forget which one...) where she spoke about traits in terms of floor and ceilings. Not only are their floors and ceilings, but some dogs have larger windows between the floor and ceiling than others. It has been most helpful for my work with Sage to read about all your real inus and thus figure out that if his floor-ceiling for tolerance of strange events is at a certain place that seems low to me compared to other dogs I know, it's because kais tend to be that way and trying to change that would be going against the grain and not worth any amount of training for either of us. He's watchdoggish because he's half kai- not because of anything I did or didn't do or can do anything about.
I am thinking of the few points where he deviates from Brad's list- he LOVES to be touched, groomed, tolerates feet played with. He is VERY affectionate, and he does train easy. All more so than even Reilly. So maybe there's a high ceiling on those traits OR perhaps those are clues to his dad, since I don't think they come from his crappy puppyhood? All other categories I'd say Sage is right on with Brad's Kai assesment, and that Kai blood expresses rather strong in a mixed dog.
I'm *so not* trying to be argumentative, and granted most of my experience with all kinds of dogs have been shelter/rescue, but all of these : "prey drive, workability, aloofness, energy level" are affected, at least in part, by experience, environment, and development. I mean, at the core of the dog - what else is there in them to shape their response to everything they encounter?
There's a blog called Retrieverman where he talks about the retriever and other gun dog breeds, their original purpose, and how far removed most of the breed's specimen are due to poor confirmation, show dog expectations and no field experience, etc. He talks about gun shy retrievers, how some rescues can go right out and do their job while reputable, purpose bred dogs have poor (as in too glamorous) coats and cannot. Fascinating stuff, and is saying what I'm trying to, less eloquently. Ethology, in all its forms, has everything to do with how a specific breed performs its intended task. That's why there are breeds, right? But, the whole spectrum of the dog experience becomes their ethological imprint, and effects everything they do.
If the purpose of this thread is for people who do not yet own a dog, or do not yet own one of a particular breed, and want an easy way to gauge what this particular breed *could* be like, a scale like this isn't going to do it. To get even a fair representation, you would need breeders, show people, handlers, trainers specific to the breed, people who hunt or do work with the dogs, pet owners of show quality or work quality dogs, and even people who rescue or pull from shelters. Perfectly capable, stable purebred dogs come from shelters, too.
No matter what I read, what I saw, who I met, none of it ever prepared me in part or whole for any of the breed/mixes I've lived with. I imagine the same will always apply, that's all I'm saying.
I'm taking Brad's list and scoring Tetsu on it, as well as adding a few sub categories. My thought is is if we each grade our own dogs, than we can see what the general average for each breed leans towards. Even with the many personalities of each individual, I feel that there will still be a trend.
rating is stolen from Brad as well: "(rated on a scale of 0-5; where 0 is nonexistent, 1 is a very weak/low trait/quality, and 5 is a very strong/high trait/quality)"
Aloofness: 2 He may want his 'me' time, but for the most part he wants to be in the same room as me or Tom
Shyness:3 He will go up and greet a stranger, but will keep his distance after that
Energy level:3 active when the opportunity comes, but will sleep the day away if nothing is going on
Strength:4 He's pretty strong for his size, he can even topple Tikaani a little when they play tug together
Endurance:4 He can keep going for as long as needed
Ease of Training Learning a command:4 Performing command without incentive:2 He learns quickly, but very reluctant to do most commands unless it's worth his wild
Reactiveness:3 There are times when he isn't the greatest around others
Prey drive:4 He will give chase (or pull on the leash) if he sees an animal or something moving.
Defensive drive (read as "watchdog-ness"):2 Rarely in watchdog mode, few things set him off (beards, strollers in dog park, distant barking)
Versatility: I think I need a better definition for this
Workability:3
Companionship:4 Loves being and interacting with me
Outdoorsy-ness:3 enjoys being out, unless it involves getting wet or dirty.
Anxiety/Drive: I think I need a better definition for this
Refinement: I think I need a better definition for this
Willingness to be touched:2 Doesn't mind me being touched and can handle some stranger petting, but still needs a lot of work with being touched on the head and paws.
So many of these 'traits' have somewhat of a subjective definition, so I think we would need to define each so as everyone is on the same page.
Beth, I like how you broke downt he training into 2 groups.
This is all very interesting. I probably have only spoken to Chrystal on this, so she may have known where I was coming from by asking my above question. My concern with Koda is that it seems like the more Kai's I get to know, al be it online, and hear their stories they seem to go from one extreme to the other either social or fearful/dominant. I want to make sure that I am doing everything I possibly can to understand his needs and help him to grow up to be a well rounded Kai as well as understanding his breed characteristics and accepting them.
I was raised with many different breeds, grandmother had a farm and was a breeder my uncle breeds German import Rotts. I always had someone to turn to for advice and to learn from. For Koda, I have all of you and hearing stories about Kona, Sage, and Josephine as well as all the Nihon Ken family will help me better understand Koda as he grows up and changes. Like Chrystal said, Koda at four months is not going to be Koda at nine months or the Koda at three years.
I should actually do Brad's rating and then compare my answers to Koda six months from now. You know at 10 months, during the a**hole stage. he he
Figured Beth has a good idea with just stealing Brads list and scoring Tiger (Akita) on it, we've not known him long but it can't hurt to give input. Get enough ideas about the individual dogs of each breed and there's bound to be some common ground
Aloofness 2
Shyness 1
Energy level 2 (he'll walk for as long as you walk with him but doesn't seem overall energetic aside from initial excitement for something new, if that makes sense)
Strength (relative to size) 3
Endurance 3
Ease of Training 2. I think someone else mentioned that their pup will do it if s/he knows there's a reward in it but to do it just because you asked has a much lower success rate.
Reactiveness 3/4. I'm hesitant to even answer this one based on his previous experiences and awaiting behaviourists opinion. I'm unsure how to rate it. Huh. I'll come back to it next year, yeah?
Prey drive 2
Defensive drive (read as "watchdog-ness") Akita: 2
Versatility 3
Companionship 4
Outdoorsy-ness 2
Anxiety/Drive 3
Refinement 4
Willingness to be touched 4
and for the hell of it, because I don't have work till late tomorrow, Corinas questions too.
- What attracted you to the breed/these breeds? Both the Akita and the Shiba (the latter of which we haven't got) were seriously considered for their proud demeanors. They look so regal! I, for one, (unsure about Johns personal reasons so I wont quote them) love them for their loyal characteristics, when we met the Akita Breeders and their dogs I enjoyed watching how they'd play with us but showed an unbridled respect, love and loyalty to Chris/Tina. I must say that once we'd actually met a whole bunch of Akitas we really enjoyed the way they were perfectly content to play with us and then relax and then play and relax though I suspect this is possibly more they way those particular dogs (all owned by the same people) were treated. They're not wild, yappy things that wont lay off until they're sleeping but they're not necessarily just going to come to you for food/water. We've always loved bigger breeds which is probably where the Akita won out. It's hard to quantify why, exactly. Fortunately we weren't looking for a guard dog because the only thing Tiger guards against is busses or motorbikes driving past. I must add though, that I walked him alone one night and as Tiger was peeing in/on a bush round a corner a man approached and asked for some change. Tiger sat by my side, barked once and looked up at me. I thanked him (Tiger not the man) and walked on. The guy left. (We have the same problem with one guy asking for change and getting threatening) so it is nice to know he's able to recognise a potentially dangerous situation (from my change body language I imagine?) and calmly diffuse it. Though it's not something I'd have "bought" for. If that makes sense.
I must say, though it's strange, that I enjoy the challenge of training a dog that isn't necessarily easy to change. If that makes sense.
Tara - Your question to me about environmental affects on some of the traits I listed (prey drive, aloofness, so on) was answered by Corina's post (IMO). She wrote: "I mean...there's always room for "modification"...trying to increase or decrease a certain drive." I agree with her, you can reinforce/change traits in dogs that may appear to be "fixed" by the breed's description. So, yes, all of the items I listed can be affected by environment - BUT - remember, I was rating them in reference to the other Nihonken breeds I own not other breeds in general.
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Jen - In regards to your (non-argumentative) rebuttal...
The Shiba breed, in general, has a high prey drive. If you meet 6 Shiba and 3 have a low prey drive does that mean the Shiba breed has low prey drive? With out extremes at either end there can be no middle point - the middle point is what (I think) we are trying to casually define here.
-or-
Lani (female Akita Inu) is a small Akita, but I still consider her a large breed. She is only just a bit bigger than Ahi tho, and Ahi is a large (too large) Shikoku. Does Lani being close to the size of Ahi make her a medium sized breed? Or Ahi a large breed?
Also, as Lindsay pointed out, the bloodlines of many of the dogs we have to draw opinions on come from a very small pool... same logic can apply to your situation, most of the Shiba you have met have come from your efforts in rescue. Well, one could assume that the majority of the rescues you deal with come from Mills in the PA area and so are a sampling from a relatively small gene pool (tho I know you deal a lot with shelters all over the US... but you get my point, I hope).
I agree with you that we need to have input from many many many different (types of) owners with different experience levels to truly get a solid bank of data to actually say a Shiba is "x" or isn't "x"... but, I think Osy (the OP) was looking for our opinions and experiences and I think that is what people are giving... I dunno that anyone is saying their input on this subject is the definitive comparison / definition of any of the breeds.
I also agree that nothing will really fully prepare a potential owner for a new dog (no matter the breed), but the more info (opinions or facts) will only help the future owners feel more confident in their final breed selection.
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At the very least, giving everyone one's personal experiences and thoughts on the comparison of the Nihonken breeds will help future owners see the variety and differences in the breed, individual dogs, and help them draw their own conclusions before they make a choice. I mean, they can get a LOT MORE info here than I could get before/after we got Ahi (our first Shikoku).
Thanks for everyone's contributions, this is really helpful!
Brad - I couldn't have put it better meself. IMHO there will never be a 100% definitive guide, as dogs are living beings with their own minds, & thus, no two can ever be alike. However, certain breeds share certain characteristics, that's what makes it a "breed" instead of just "dogs."
Whilst you can never know enough to prepare yourself for your actual dog, having info never hurts.
I think it can be said one of the largest reasons dogs are surrendered is because the owners didn't kno what they were getting themselves into. People pick up Shibas from pet stores thinking they'll get a "lap dog" while what they get in actuality is a dog quite the opposite. When the reality sets in, they decide they don't want to "deal" with them & would rather get rid of them then make up for the lack of research they didn't do BEFORE hand.
No 2 dogs are the same, yes, but there is something that makes a shiba a shiba. A shiba is NOT an akita, or kishu, or hokka, etc. What makes the shiba so unique amongst it's 5 cousins? The akita? The shika? The kai? Hokka? Kishu? This is what I was trying to ask in this discussion.
Also, as a reminder, the point of the discussion was to find out the differences between the 6 nihon ken breeds as they relate to eachother. There has to be some differences, otherwise, they would all be "one breed" rather than 6 different ones. ~
I can only compare akitas and shibas. We have plans to get a shikoku but I haven't met any yet and I've only met one kishu.
My akita leans toward the shy end. I would say all her siblings and relatives are more aloof than anyone has posted in this thread so far. We started dog class the week I got her and we go to the dog park constantly as well as other places several times a week where she sees people. After 2years she has only recently allowed people outside of those she sees very regularly to touch her. She still will not get within arm's reach of a stranger for pretty much anything. The shiba on the other hand absolutely loves people and bounces up to every stranger. She'll greet people at the dog park before she will the other dogs. She just plain goes nuts when a new person walks in the door while we are at the dojo. Usually when the door opens my akita gets a concerned look and debates where to hide and at home she picks a good spot to make a stand and gives her most intimidating bark until I tell her enough. At which point she retreats to a good observing point that keeps her as close to me and as far away from the visitors as possible. At the same time I'm having to pull the shiba off the visitors while she demands all attention on herself. One thing I liked about akitas was when I walked in the door they didn't all rush up to greet me. They gave a calm look and sniff before continuing what they were doing. I ruffled one's ears and he looked more offended than anything. The shiba loves that kind of attention and has to be in everyone's business and/or lap.
As for training and reacting to people my akita is not the least bit interested in doing anything to please a person. It requires extreme effort to motivate her. Some of her relatives are easier and the males are consistently much more people oriented than the females but overall her breeder and those of us with her siblings joke frequently about the "akita stare". When you tell these guys to do something even if your holding the best food item in the world, their favorite toy, or jumping up and down excitedly if they don't feel like doing it at the moment they just stare off some other direction. Most dogs I've known when you tell them to do something and they decide to disobey they'll glance at you repeatedly to see if you are going to reinforce it. The akitas don't. They just stare and refuse to move or react until you are no longer asking them to do whatever they decided they didn't want to. My akita has been the hardest dog ever to motivate. In comparison the shiba is easy. She just wants to do something to expend energy. So long as you've got an interesting toy or treat and you mix things up a little she'll keep trying to do what you want or at least do something even if it's not exactly what you want. She does get distracted easy. Her attention span is a little worse than the akita's was at that age but motivating her and getting her back on task is much easier. Overall in my experience the stubborn side of the akita seems to equal out with the short attention span of the shiba making them different but equally difficult to train. It's also equally difficult dealing with the akita's lower energy as the shiba's higher energy.
Both the akita and shiba looooooove hiking and going outdoors. They hate sitting inside. They much prefer running about the horse pastures, playing in the creek, climbing rocks, or just being out in the bigger part of the yard even if they have to be on a rope. The akitas I've known aren't high energy by any means but they hate to sit inside all the time. They make wonderful hiking and jogging partners and have extreme stamina. I do not think it's possible to tire out my akita and the owner of one of her brother's has said the same. He takes his akita jogging for an hour a day and it's ready to go again in 5mins. Same with mine. We once spent the morning horseback riding, jogged and hiked 10miles of trail, and then I did my martial arts class in the evening. I walked out ready to collaspe. Zami greeted me bouncing about and tugging on her leash to go again. We wear the shiba out easy in comparison. Partially because the akitas seem to expend more focused energy and it takes alot of effort to make them expend more than needed to do anything while the shiba wildly throws herself at everything and wears herself out without much help.
The biggest difference I've seen in my akita versus shiba I would say is self control. The akita has lots of self control and everything she does is controlled. Every action and every bit of energy expended is thought out and well placed. If it doesn't have an obvious point then she won't expend energy on it and while she may find something more interesting she never forgets what she was doing. The shiba seems to do things on a whim and sometimes goes through a lot of effort for something she ends up not really wanting in the first place but it was there so she had to try irregardless. If she doesn't just get bored halfway through trying and forget what she was after anyway.
I have not really been around any Nihon Ken. But I think I will answer Corina's questions because they have been on my mind a great deal lately. I came here to research as much as possible about the kai because I knew this would be a large commitment and wanted to be as informed as possible. Having been on here for a while, I would say I have found some definite similarities and differences in the breeds, and have had a hard time deciding what one is actually the closest suited to my lifestyle.
- What attracted you to the breed/these breeds? I came here looking for more information on the kai. They do not seem to be as active as other members, but I am excited to see more on here of late. I grew up on a farm, and pretty much everyone in my family owns dogs, from pekingese to dobermans to mixes. I spent most of my time with the labs, pekingese, and dalmations. I loved our labs endurance and ruggedness. I disliked the neediness. So I started from there - what breed has the traits i like, and not the ones I don't. I liked the kai for many of the traits Brad listed above: workability, aloofness, outdoorsy-ness, loyalty, and endurance. I am a one-person household (no animals either), and the kai seemed like a great fit. However, it was the training and anxiety (i.e. reports of separation anxiety, etc.) that made me wonder - only because this is "my" first dog where the others I have had were always "family" dogs. I love the akita for it's loyalty, but also because the trend I have noticed in this breed (and I think I have noticed more in the JA reports, but could be wrong), is more "friendly" towards strangers than the Kai seems to be. I have a very close family, and I often babysit for my sister's lil ones, ages 7, 5, and 2 1/2. The akita seems to be more of a "family" dog than the kai. It also appears to be more easily trainable. It is also larger, and I am used to larger dogs. I liked the opportunity to hike with a kai, but I live in Kansas and may for a while, so it won't be that rugged - this again, made me think the akita could be better suited as I will spend more time on park trails than mountain trails. Energy also plays into my decision. I am pretty laid back unless provoked, and the akita seems to be a bit more laid back than the kai (IMHO).
- Was it strictly just the physical characteristics of the dog? <--- It's okay if this was your main reason, don't be afraid, lol. We are all "suckers' for cute dogs! Not necessarily - though the eyes of the kai are one of my favorite features of the dog
- Maybe a certain quaility that took your interest? I think I may have answered this above? I was drawn to the low doggy odor though!
- What do you/did you hope to gain from this dog/these dogs? I want a companion who can be an active participant in my life. I want a dog I can take on trails and lounge with at home. I want a dog who will be comfortable when my family is around, but loves it most when it's us two.
- (anything else you'd like to add, please do!) I guess I looked at them like this (nihon ken only comparison based on things I picked up from posts): introvert to extrovert - goes as Kai, Shikoku, Akita, Shiba - outside to inside - goes Kai, Shikoku, Akita, Shiba working dog to family pet - goes Kai, Shikoku, Akita, Shiba
oo, now I like Amber's way of presenting the information better- no numbers, just relative to each other in an ordered list form. (sorry, art-brain favors a visual representation over numerical) In this way, you dont get that "The kai only gets a 2? WTF?" misunderstanding... If one was especially outside its end of the scale, relative to the others you can add an asterisk for emphasis, or if they were about the same, just use &. ie: "Likes Sweet Potatoes to dislikes sweet potatoes- Akita & kai, shiba, shikoku*"
disclaimer: I am sure there is no breed predeliction for sweet potato lust, just needed a know-nothing's example...
@brada1878 how much differently would you rate the breeds now? I know it's been a while since you posted your original and have a lot more dogs and experience now.
Wow, this is super interesting to see, esp. Brad's dogs then (vs now!) Yeah, Brad, I'd be interested in hearing what you think now, too!
I loved Lindsay's take on the Shibas, which very much reflects my take on them perfectly. Esp. the feral part!
funny, too, to see this, because when I came to the forum, I had only Shibas. Now I have Shibas, an Akita (American) and a Kai Ken. Anyway, I'd love to hear other people chime in too!
For the record, I'm reporting on my American Akita who is 2 years old, my two adult Shibas (7 and 8 years old, but the female is not representative of the breed), and my 6 month old Kai Ken. I have enough experience with other American Akitas and Shibas to make some generalizations about them as a breed, but I'm just learning about the Kai Ken.
here is my take on this, using some of Brad's categories, and ratings: "(rated on a scale of 0-5; where 0 is nonexistent, 1 is a very weak/low trait/quality, and 5 is a very strong/high trait/quality)"
Aloofness: American Akita: 3/4 He likes the people he met as a puppy, but otherwise is not interested in strangers and/or is suspicious of them. Shibas: 3 This one is hard to rate. My male Shiba is polite but generally not interested in people, but my female is extremely fearful, but she has issues. Kai Ken: 1. He's a puppy, but Leo really likes everyone so far, and is eager to meet everyone. I give him a 1, not a 0, though, because he loses interest in people quickly.
Energy level: Akita: 1. He'd happily just lay around. He runs around in the yard, but then settles down to watch. Shiba: 1 and 3. The male is very lazy and I have to force him to go for walks. He's a couch potato. The female is still pretty active even on her own, but neither of them were every super active dogs, in my mind. Kai Ken 4 He's pretty active, and really needs tiring out, or he gets into things. He loves to run, jump and climb. He's also quite young.
Strength: Akita: 3/4 he's a very strong dog. He also weighs 115 pounds, and can use that weight appropriately. he is, however, very biddable, so his strength is tempered by his willingness to please. Shibas: 3 Kai Ken: 3/4
(I had a hard time answering this one: they all seem strong, but I wasn't sure how to judge it.)
Endurance: Akita: 1 He's easily tired out. My other Akita was like this too--she'd run super fast, but then she was done. Shibas 1 & 4/5. Toby gets very easily tired, but I think that is more reflective of his health issues that reflective of the breed. Bel could keep going forever and sometimes does. Kai Ken: not sure yet but probably in the 3/4 area
Ease of Training Akita: 4 overall. If it is ease of learning a command, I'd put him at 2/3 I think, as it took him a bit longer to learn than some of my other NKs. But if we're looking at how biddable he is, I'd give him a 4, as he is quite willing to do as he asked, and while he expects a treat, he'll do it without one. He's always pretty interested in following commands, and he also had a much higher tolerance of repetition in training than my other NKs. Of all my dogs, he was the closest to the GSD in terms of biddability--clearly, he is not that biddable, but he was pretty easy to train and willing to work.
Shibas: Overall 2. Ease of learning commands, 4/5 (they got it super fast!), but willing to work goes down to 1 or 2 especially if there is no obvious reward. Tolerance of repetition in training? 0/1 For me, they were by far the hardest dogs to work with I've ever had, though things did improve quite a bit as they matured. They still are very much of the "what's in it for us?" mindset, though.
Kai Ken 3/4 so far. He is pretty quick at learning commands (not as quick as the Shibas, but quicker than the Akita), and is pretty food motivated so he's willing to work, but he also is more distractable than the Akita was at the same age, and is much less tolerant of repetition. He also gets overwhelmed easily, and shuts down entirely (which he demonstrates by sitting with his face against a wall or in general turned away) His recall is better than any of the others, though, and he does seem to enjoy working as long as he is not bored or overwhelmed by too much newness.
Reactiveness: Akita: 3 He's an Akita. He can be good with other dogs, but he is not very tolerant of rudeness in other dogs. Shibas: 4/5 About as bad as it gets. One is entirely intolerant of all other dogs including other dogs in our household (he lives separate from the others) and the other will tolerate dogs introduced to her as puppies, but that's it. Kai Ken: 0 I have seen no dog reactiveness to him at all yet.
Prey drive: Akita: 2 He has killed rabbits, and he likes to chase things, but he's often more interested in just watching (he's lazy) Shibas: 5 (though the male Shiba is now pretty inactive in general, but as a younger dog he would chase and kill anything that moved). They will kill anything and everything, and are super prey motivated. Kai Ken: 0/1 So far, he sees that the other dogs are interested, but he is only imitating them. He doesn't even chase the rabbits in the yard.
Defensive drive (read as "watchdog-ness"): Akita: 5. He is always watching, and sometimes will alarm bark, but even more than that, he will assess "threats" and charge the fence if he feels something comes to close (mostly people). He has a strong defensive drive. Shibas: 1-3 Both will alarm bark. But one, the male, will alarm bark then retreat quickly. The female continues to alarm bark, and I think she might actually bite someone who came in the yard (not necessarily a good thing with her, since she's a little crazy thing, but she is also pretty territorial) Kai: 0 He watches the other dogs bark at the gate and looks puzzled. He barked once at the neighbor and then when they looked at him, he started wagging his tail and wiggling instead.
Companionship: Akita: 4/5 he loves being with us, and is the dog that is most likely to tolerate being petted or hugged. He just wants to be around us. Shibas: 2/3 The male likes to be in the same room with us. The female varies between being extremely needy (if she's anxious) to not wanting to have anything to do with us at all. Kai Ken: 4/5 He wants to be with us.
Outdoorsy-ness: On all of them, I'd put this around 3. All enjoy being outside, and the Akita particularly enjoys cool weather, even snow and rain, and will sit outside in it (but his coat is so heavy I think he's too hot in the house, and he does want to be in the house if it is hot outside). The female Shiba could probably get a 4/5--she'd live outside constantly if she could. The Kai just wants to be where we are. Except for the Akita, none of them seem to like getting wet, though.
Anxiety/Drive: Akita: Anxiety 1/2 he's a pretty steady, calm dog, but is a bit anxious of things that are new (including new foods!). he likes his routine. Drive, I'm not sure. he's got a desire to be a watchdog, that's for sure, and clearly has a strong sense of his territory and his people, but I'm not sure if that's drive, really. Shibas: Very drivey if we are talking about prey drive. My male has traditionally not be a terribly anxious dog, but circumstances have made him more anxious (after dog-related injuries). My female is extremely anxious, but again, that is her, not necessairly the breed. Kai ken: I'm not seeing a lot of drive in him yet, but I'm not sure what I'd be looking for yet. Anxiety, 3/4. He is a confident little man in familiar circumstances, but gets anxious and overwhelmed by novelty and unfamiliarity.
Willingness to be touched: Akita 4/5 He likes it! he even is patient with nail trims, eye drops, ear drops, etc. Shibas 1 They tolerate an occasional bit of petting, the female more than the male Otherwise, hands off! Kai Ken: 1 he may change as he's young, but right now, he's not much for a lot of touch.
Wow that's a novel! But there it is. The Shibas are the most difficult to me--high drive, low biddability, etc.. Akitas are to me the easiest of the NKs to handle, but I'm going mostly on how biddable and trainable they are. I love the Kai Ken like crazy, though, and to me, he falls somewhere in between the others.
@brada1878 Ease of Training Akita: 2 Kai: 1.5 Shiba: 3 Shikoku: 4 That one was a surprise. kai seem way more compliant/eager to please than shiba. I mean, yours basically come pre-packaged with potty training and listening skills lol.
And Brad, I thought it might be good to note that your Akita were Japanese Akita, right? I think the breeds are pretty different myself, at least in terms of some things, like defense drive.
I have to say on the training, it's sometimes just funny to watch the differences. My American Akita would watch me and go, huh, you want me to do what? Show me that again. And again. One more time? It just took him awhile to get things, but then he'd do more repetition than any of my other dogs.
The Shibas sometimes just prefer not to (so sometimes people they don't get it, but they do. They just don't see the point.)
My Kai watches me (or the other dogs) and learns from that. We do it a couple of times, then he acts like "I am so done with that. Didn't you see me do that twice? What's next?"
What they all share though is needing to be motivated. I see it in classes and in agility in particular, but I see it at home too. They watch, and then they figure out the easiest, most direct way to do something. This means a lot of going around jumps in agility, and I can see Leo going "but, hey, I can just walk around this thing! Why jump over it?"
Yea, our Akita were Akita Inu - imported from Europe, not Japan. I'm sure the recently-imported-from-Japan Akita Inu(s) are different from the European imports in many ways too.
Comments
All dogs, as individuals, have their personalities, little quirks, likes & dislikes, however a "generalization" I think would be like a "majority rules" kind of thing. Trying to find "common ground" in a "group", in this case "specific breeds", of dogs.
"I think the only way we can come up with a "differences list" is to be more general and focus on traits that are less affected by the dog's upbringing and environment, like: prey drive, workability, aloofness, energy level, and so on. That is, at least, what I tried to do with my list."
I agree with Brad on perhaps focusing on qualities such as these. I mean...there's always room for "modification"...trying to increase or decrease a certain drive. However, reguardless of what one does with the dog...there are certain things about that breed that are always gonna be there. That's what makes a breed, a "breed" - aside from the physical attributes. It's what self-motivates the dog genetically.
Why do we pick the breeds that we do? It's generally cause there's just something or things so unique about this particular group of dog that attracts us.
Here's a crazy thought for another "list"...for those who currently own Nihon Ken...and for those planning on getting a Nihon Ken. WHY?
- What attracted you to the breed/these breeds?
- Was it strictly just the physical characteristics of the dog? <--- It's <i>okay if this was your main reason, don't be afraid, lol. We are all "suckers' for cute dogs!
- Maybe a certain quaility that took your interest?
- What do you/did you hope to gain from this dog/these dogs?
- (anything else you'd like to add, please do!)
[I need to go to sleep sleeps now! lol...I should have some free forum time tomorrow night...erm...later tonight! Happy discussion!]
Someone would probably have to own a dozen unrelated dogs of all the breeds in order to give a somewhat good comparison!
I got a lot of perspective from some Jean Donaldson book on my shelf (forget which one...) where she spoke about traits in terms of floor and ceilings. Not only are their floors and ceilings, but some dogs have larger windows between the floor and ceiling than others. It has been most helpful for my work with Sage to read about all your real inus and thus figure out that if his floor-ceiling for tolerance of strange events is at a certain place that seems low to me compared to other dogs I know, it's because kais tend to be that way and trying to change that would be going against the grain and not worth any amount of training for either of us. He's watchdoggish because he's half kai- not because of anything I did or didn't do or can do anything about.
I am thinking of the few points where he deviates from Brad's list- he LOVES to be touched, groomed, tolerates feet played with. He is VERY affectionate, and he does train easy. All more so than even Reilly. So maybe there's a high ceiling on those traits OR perhaps those are clues to his dad, since I don't think they come from his crappy puppyhood? All other categories I'd say Sage is right on with Brad's Kai assesment, and that Kai blood expresses rather strong in a mixed dog.
There's a blog called Retrieverman where he talks about the retriever and other gun dog breeds, their original purpose, and how far removed most of the breed's specimen are due to poor confirmation, show dog expectations and no field experience, etc. He talks about gun shy retrievers, how some rescues can go right out and do their job while reputable, purpose bred dogs have poor (as in too glamorous) coats and cannot. Fascinating stuff, and is saying what I'm trying to, less eloquently. Ethology, in all its forms, has everything to do with how a specific breed performs its intended task. That's why there are breeds, right? But, the whole spectrum of the dog experience becomes their ethological imprint, and effects everything they do.
If the purpose of this thread is for people who do not yet own a dog, or do not yet own one of a particular breed, and want an easy way to gauge what this particular breed *could* be like, a scale like this isn't going to do it.
To get even a fair representation, you would need breeders, show people, handlers, trainers specific to the breed, people who hunt or do work with the dogs, pet owners of show quality or work quality dogs, and even people who rescue or pull from shelters. Perfectly capable, stable purebred dogs come from shelters, too.
No matter what I read, what I saw, who I met, none of it ever prepared me in part or whole for any of the breed/mixes I've lived with. I imagine the same will always apply, that's all I'm saying.
rating is stolen from Brad as well:
"(rated on a scale of 0-5; where 0 is nonexistent, 1 is a very weak/low trait/quality, and 5 is a very strong/high trait/quality)"
Aloofness: 2
He may want his 'me' time, but for the most part he wants to be in the same room as me or Tom
Shyness:3
He will go up and greet a stranger, but will keep his distance after that
Energy level:3
active when the opportunity comes, but will sleep the day away if nothing is going on
Strength:4
He's pretty strong for his size, he can even topple Tikaani a little when they play tug together
Endurance:4
He can keep going for as long as needed
Ease of Training
Learning a command:4
Performing command without incentive:2
He learns quickly, but very reluctant to do most commands unless it's worth his wild
Reactiveness:3
There are times when he isn't the greatest around others
Prey drive:4
He will give chase (or pull on the leash) if he sees an animal or something moving.
Defensive drive (read as "watchdog-ness"):2
Rarely in watchdog mode, few things set him off (beards, strollers in dog park, distant barking)
Versatility: I think I need a better definition for this
Workability:3
Companionship:4
Loves being and interacting with me
Outdoorsy-ness:3
enjoys being out, unless it involves getting wet or dirty.
Anxiety/Drive: I think I need a better definition for this
Refinement: I think I need a better definition for this
Willingness to be touched:2
Doesn't mind me being touched and can handle some stranger petting, but still needs a lot of work with being touched on the head and paws.
So many of these 'traits' have somewhat of a subjective definition, so I think we would need to define each so as everyone is on the same page.
This is all very interesting. I probably have only spoken to Chrystal on this, so she may have known where I was coming from by asking my above question. My concern with Koda is that it seems like the more Kai's I get to know, al be it online, and hear their stories they seem to go from one extreme to the other either social or fearful/dominant. I want to make sure that I am doing everything I possibly can to understand his needs and help him to grow up to be a well rounded Kai as well as understanding his breed characteristics and accepting them.
I was raised with many different breeds, grandmother had a farm and was a breeder my uncle breeds German import Rotts. I always had someone to turn to for advice and to learn from. For Koda, I have all of you and hearing stories about Kona, Sage, and Josephine as well as all the Nihon Ken family will help me better understand Koda as he grows up and changes. Like Chrystal said, Koda at four months is not going to be Koda at nine months or the Koda at three years.
I should actually do Brad's rating and then compare my answers to Koda six months from now. You know at 10 months, during the a**hole stage. he he
Aloofness
2
Shyness
1
Energy level
2 (he'll walk for as long as you walk with him but doesn't seem overall energetic aside from initial excitement for something new, if that makes sense)
Strength (relative to size)
3
Endurance
3
Ease of Training
2. I think someone else mentioned that their pup will do it if s/he knows there's a reward in it but to do it just because you asked has a much lower success rate.
Reactiveness
3/4. I'm hesitant to even answer this one based on his previous experiences and awaiting behaviourists opinion. I'm unsure how to rate it. Huh. I'll come back to it next year, yeah?
Prey drive
2
Defensive drive (read as "watchdog-ness")
Akita: 2
Versatility
3
Companionship
4
Outdoorsy-ness
2
Anxiety/Drive
3
Refinement
4
Willingness to be touched
4
and for the hell of it, because I don't have work till late tomorrow, Corinas questions too.
- What attracted you to the breed/these breeds?
Both the Akita and the Shiba (the latter of which we haven't got) were seriously considered for their proud demeanors. They look so regal! I, for one, (unsure about Johns personal reasons so I wont quote them) love them for their loyal characteristics, when we met the Akita Breeders and their dogs I enjoyed watching how they'd play with us but showed an unbridled respect, love and loyalty to Chris/Tina. I must say that once we'd actually met a whole bunch of Akitas we really enjoyed the way they were perfectly content to play with us and then relax and then play and relax though I suspect this is possibly more they way those particular dogs (all owned by the same people) were treated. They're not wild, yappy things that wont lay off until they're sleeping but they're not necessarily just going to come to you for food/water. We've always loved bigger breeds which is probably where the Akita won out. It's hard to quantify why, exactly. Fortunately we weren't looking for a guard dog because the only thing Tiger guards against is busses or motorbikes driving past. I must add though, that I walked him alone one night and as Tiger was peeing in/on a bush round a corner a man approached and asked for some change. Tiger sat by my side, barked once and looked up at me. I thanked him (Tiger not the man) and walked on. The guy left. (We have the same problem with one guy asking for change and getting threatening) so it is nice to know he's able to recognise a potentially dangerous situation (from my change body language I imagine?) and calmly diffuse it. Though it's not something I'd have "bought" for. If that makes sense.
I must say, though it's strange, that I enjoy the challenge of training a dog that isn't necessarily easy to change. If that makes sense.
It's a strange reason to add but also
----
Jen - In regards to your (non-argumentative) rebuttal...
The Shiba breed, in general, has a high prey drive. If you meet 6 Shiba and 3 have a low prey drive does that mean the Shiba breed has low prey drive? With out extremes at either end there can be no middle point - the middle point is what (I think) we are trying to casually define here.
-or-
Lani (female Akita Inu) is a small Akita, but I still consider her a large breed. She is only just a bit bigger than Ahi tho, and Ahi is a large (too large) Shikoku. Does Lani being close to the size of Ahi make her a medium sized breed? Or Ahi a large breed?
Also, as Lindsay pointed out, the bloodlines of many of the dogs we have to draw opinions on come from a very small pool... same logic can apply to your situation, most of the Shiba you have met have come from your efforts in rescue. Well, one could assume that the majority of the rescues you deal with come from Mills in the PA area and so are a sampling from a relatively small gene pool (tho I know you deal a lot with shelters all over the US... but you get my point, I hope).
I agree with you that we need to have input from many many many different (types of) owners with different experience levels to truly get a solid bank of data to actually say a Shiba is "x" or isn't "x"... but, I think Osy (the OP) was looking for our opinions and experiences and I think that is what people are giving... I dunno that anyone is saying their input on this subject is the definitive comparison / definition of any of the breeds.
I also agree that nothing will really fully prepare a potential owner for a new dog (no matter the breed), but the more info (opinions or facts) will only help the future owners feel more confident in their final breed selection.
----
At the very least, giving everyone one's personal experiences and thoughts on the comparison of the Nihonken breeds will help future owners see the variety and differences in the breed, individual dogs, and help them draw their own conclusions before they make a choice. I mean, they can get a LOT MORE info here than I could get before/after we got Ahi (our first Shikoku).
So I don't think this discussion hurts anything.
----
Yeah I thought you were rating in comparison to breeds in general and not to other Nihon Ken. Your assessment does make a lot more sense now to me.
Brad - I couldn't have put it better meself. IMHO there will never be a 100% definitive guide, as dogs are living beings with their own minds, & thus, no two can ever be alike. However, certain breeds share certain characteristics, that's what makes it a "breed" instead of just "dogs."
Whilst you can never know enough to prepare yourself for your actual dog, having info never hurts.
I think it can be said one of the largest reasons dogs are surrendered is because the owners didn't kno what they were getting themselves into. People pick up Shibas from pet stores thinking they'll get a "lap dog" while what they get in actuality is a dog quite the opposite. When the reality sets in, they decide they don't want to "deal" with them & would rather get rid of them then make up for the lack of research they didn't do BEFORE hand.
No 2 dogs are the same, yes, but there is something that makes a shiba a shiba. A shiba is NOT an akita, or kishu, or hokka, etc. What makes the shiba so unique amongst it's 5 cousins? The akita? The shika? The kai? Hokka? Kishu? This is what I was trying to ask in this discussion.
Also, as a reminder, the point of the discussion was to find out the differences between the 6 nihon ken breeds as they relate to eachother. There has to be some differences, otherwise, they would all be "one breed" rather than 6 different ones.
My akita leans toward the shy end. I would say all her siblings and relatives are more aloof than anyone has posted in this thread so far. We started dog class the week I got her and we go to the dog park constantly as well as other places several times a week where she sees people. After 2years she has only recently allowed people outside of those she sees very regularly to touch her. She still will not get within arm's reach of a stranger for pretty much anything. The shiba on the other hand absolutely loves people and bounces up to every stranger. She'll greet people at the dog park before she will the other dogs. She just plain goes nuts when a new person walks in the door while we are at the dojo. Usually when the door opens my akita gets a concerned look and debates where to hide and at home she picks a good spot to make a stand and gives her most intimidating bark until I tell her enough. At which point she retreats to a good observing point that keeps her as close to me and as far away from the visitors as possible. At the same time I'm having to pull the shiba off the visitors while she demands all attention on herself. One thing I liked about akitas was when I walked in the door they didn't all rush up to greet me. They gave a calm look and sniff before continuing what they were doing. I ruffled one's ears and he looked more offended than anything. The shiba loves that kind of attention and has to be in everyone's business and/or lap.
As for training and reacting to people my akita is not the least bit interested in doing anything to please a person. It requires extreme effort to motivate her. Some of her relatives are easier and the males are consistently much more people oriented than the females but overall her breeder and those of us with her siblings joke frequently about the "akita stare". When you tell these guys to do something even if your holding the best food item in the world, their favorite toy, or jumping up and down excitedly if they don't feel like doing it at the moment they just stare off some other direction. Most dogs I've known when you tell them to do something and they decide to disobey they'll glance at you repeatedly to see if you are going to reinforce it. The akitas don't. They just stare and refuse to move or react until you are no longer asking them to do whatever they decided they didn't want to. My akita has been the hardest dog ever to motivate. In comparison the shiba is easy. She just wants to do something to expend energy. So long as you've got an interesting toy or treat and you mix things up a little she'll keep trying to do what you want or at least do something even if it's not exactly what you want. She does get distracted easy. Her attention span is a little worse than the akita's was at that age but motivating her and getting her back on task is much easier. Overall in my experience the stubborn side of the akita seems to equal out with the short attention span of the shiba making them different but equally difficult to train. It's also equally difficult dealing with the akita's lower energy as the shiba's higher energy.
Both the akita and shiba looooooove hiking and going outdoors. They hate sitting inside. They much prefer running about the horse pastures, playing in the creek, climbing rocks, or just being out in the bigger part of the yard even if they have to be on a rope. The akitas I've known aren't high energy by any means but they hate to sit inside all the time. They make wonderful hiking and jogging partners and have extreme stamina. I do not think it's possible to tire out my akita and the owner of one of her brother's has said the same. He takes his akita jogging for an hour a day and it's ready to go again in 5mins. Same with mine. We once spent the morning horseback riding, jogged and hiked 10miles of trail, and then I did my martial arts class in the evening. I walked out ready to collaspe. Zami greeted me bouncing about and tugging on her leash to go again. We wear the shiba out easy in comparison. Partially because the akitas seem to expend more focused energy and it takes alot of effort to make them expend more than needed to do anything while the shiba wildly throws herself at everything and wears herself out without much help.
The biggest difference I've seen in my akita versus shiba I would say is self control. The akita has lots of self control and everything she does is controlled. Every action and every bit of energy expended is thought out and well placed. If it doesn't have an obvious point then she won't expend energy on it and while she may find something more interesting she never forgets what she was doing. The shiba seems to do things on a whim and sometimes goes through a lot of effort for something she ends up not really wanting in the first place but it was there so she had to try irregardless. If she doesn't just get bored halfway through trying and forget what she was after anyway.
- What attracted you to the breed/these breeds?
I came here looking for more information on the kai. They do not seem to be as active as other members, but I am excited to see more on here of late. I grew up on a farm, and pretty much everyone in my family owns dogs, from pekingese to dobermans to mixes. I spent most of my time with the labs, pekingese, and dalmations. I loved our labs endurance and ruggedness. I disliked the neediness. So I started from there - what breed has the traits i like, and not the ones I don't. I liked the kai for many of the traits Brad listed above: workability, aloofness, outdoorsy-ness, loyalty, and endurance. I am a one-person household (no animals either), and the kai seemed like a great fit. However, it was the training and anxiety (i.e. reports of separation anxiety, etc.) that made me wonder - only because this is "my" first dog where the others I have had were always "family" dogs. I love the akita for it's loyalty, but also because the trend I have noticed in this breed (and I think I have noticed more in the JA reports, but could be wrong), is more "friendly" towards strangers than the Kai seems to be. I have a very close family, and I often babysit for my sister's lil ones, ages 7, 5, and 2 1/2. The akita seems to be more of a "family" dog than the kai. It also appears to be more easily trainable. It is also larger, and I am used to larger dogs. I liked the opportunity to hike with a kai, but I live in Kansas and may for a while, so it won't be that rugged
- Was it strictly just the physical characteristics of the dog? <--- It's okay if this was your main reason, don't be afraid, lol. We are all "suckers' for cute dogs!
Not necessarily - though the eyes of the kai are one of my favorite features of the dog
- Maybe a certain quaility that took your interest?
I think I may have answered this above? I was drawn to the low doggy odor though!
- What do you/did you hope to gain from this dog/these dogs?
I want a companion who can be an active participant in my life. I want a dog I can take on trails and lounge with at home. I want a dog who will be comfortable when my family is around, but loves it most when it's us two.
- (anything else you'd like to add, please do!)
I guess I looked at them like this (nihon ken only comparison based on things I picked up from posts):
introvert to extrovert - goes as Kai, Shikoku, Akita, Shiba -
outside to inside - goes Kai, Shikoku, Akita, Shiba
working dog to family pet - goes Kai, Shikoku, Akita, Shiba
ie: "Likes Sweet Potatoes to dislikes sweet potatoes- Akita & kai, shiba, shikoku*"
disclaimer: I am sure there is no breed predeliction for sweet potato lust, just needed a know-nothing's example...
I loved Lindsay's take on the Shibas, which very much reflects my take on them perfectly. Esp. the feral part!
funny, too, to see this, because when I came to the forum, I had only Shibas. Now I have Shibas, an Akita (American) and a Kai Ken. Anyway, I'd love to hear other people chime in too!
For the record, I'm reporting on my American Akita who is 2 years old, my two adult Shibas (7 and 8 years old, but the female is not representative of the breed), and my 6 month old Kai Ken. I have enough experience with other American Akitas and Shibas to make some generalizations about them as a breed, but I'm just learning about the Kai Ken.
here is my take on this, using some of Brad's categories, and ratings: "(rated on a scale of 0-5; where 0 is nonexistent, 1 is a very weak/low trait/quality, and 5 is a very strong/high trait/quality)"
Aloofness:
American Akita: 3/4 He likes the people he met as a puppy, but otherwise is not interested in strangers and/or is suspicious of them.
Shibas: 3 This one is hard to rate. My male Shiba is polite but generally not interested in people, but my female is extremely fearful, but she has issues.
Kai Ken: 1. He's a puppy, but Leo really likes everyone so far, and is eager to meet everyone. I give him a 1, not a 0, though, because he loses interest in people quickly.
Energy level:
Akita: 1. He'd happily just lay around. He runs around in the yard, but then settles down to watch.
Shiba: 1 and 3. The male is very lazy and I have to force him to go for walks. He's a couch potato. The female is still pretty active even on her own, but neither of them were every super active dogs, in my mind.
Kai Ken 4 He's pretty active, and really needs tiring out, or he gets into things. He loves to run, jump and climb. He's also quite young.
Strength:
Akita: 3/4 he's a very strong dog. He also weighs 115 pounds, and can use that weight appropriately. he is, however, very biddable, so his strength is tempered by his willingness to please.
Shibas: 3
Kai Ken: 3/4
(I had a hard time answering this one: they all seem strong, but I wasn't sure how to judge it.)
Endurance:
Akita: 1 He's easily tired out. My other Akita was like this too--she'd run super fast, but then she was done.
Shibas 1 & 4/5. Toby gets very easily tired, but I think that is more reflective of his health issues that reflective of the breed. Bel could keep going forever and sometimes does.
Kai Ken: not sure yet but probably in the 3/4 area
Ease of Training
Akita: 4 overall. If it is ease of learning a command, I'd put him at 2/3 I think, as it took him a bit longer to learn than some of my other NKs. But if we're looking at how biddable he is, I'd give him a 4, as he is quite willing to do as he asked, and while he expects a treat, he'll do it without one. He's always pretty interested in following commands, and he also had a much higher tolerance of repetition in training than my other NKs. Of all my dogs, he was the closest to the GSD in terms of biddability--clearly, he is not that biddable, but he was pretty easy to train and willing to work.
Shibas: Overall 2. Ease of learning commands, 4/5 (they got it super fast!), but willing to work goes down to 1 or 2 especially if there is no obvious reward. Tolerance of repetition in training? 0/1 For me, they were by far the hardest dogs to work with I've ever had, though things did improve quite a bit as they matured. They still are very much of the "what's in it for us?" mindset, though.
Kai Ken 3/4 so far. He is pretty quick at learning commands (not as quick as the Shibas, but quicker than the Akita), and is pretty food motivated so he's willing to work, but he also is more distractable than the Akita was at the same age, and is much less tolerant of repetition. He also gets overwhelmed easily, and shuts down entirely (which he demonstrates by sitting with his face against a wall or in general turned away) His recall is better than any of the others, though, and he does seem to enjoy working as long as he is not bored or overwhelmed by too much newness.
Reactiveness:
Akita: 3 He's an Akita. He can be good with other dogs, but he is not very tolerant of rudeness in other dogs.
Shibas: 4/5 About as bad as it gets. One is entirely intolerant of all other dogs including other dogs in our household (he lives separate from the others) and the other will tolerate dogs introduced to her as puppies, but that's it.
Kai Ken: 0 I have seen no dog reactiveness to him at all yet.
Prey drive:
Akita: 2 He has killed rabbits, and he likes to chase things, but he's often more interested in just watching (he's lazy)
Shibas: 5 (though the male Shiba is now pretty inactive in general, but as a younger dog he would chase and kill anything that moved). They will kill anything and everything, and are super prey motivated.
Kai Ken: 0/1 So far, he sees that the other dogs are interested, but he is only imitating them. He doesn't even chase the rabbits in the yard.
Defensive drive (read as "watchdog-ness"):
Akita: 5. He is always watching, and sometimes will alarm bark, but even more than that, he will assess "threats" and charge the fence if he feels something comes to close (mostly people). He has a strong defensive drive.
Shibas: 1-3 Both will alarm bark. But one, the male, will alarm bark then retreat quickly. The female continues to alarm bark, and I think she might actually bite someone who came in the yard (not necessarily a good thing with her, since she's a little crazy thing, but she is also pretty territorial)
Kai: 0 He watches the other dogs bark at the gate and looks puzzled. He barked once at the neighbor and then when they looked at him, he started wagging his tail and wiggling instead.
Companionship:
Akita: 4/5 he loves being with us, and is the dog that is most likely to tolerate being petted or hugged. He just wants to be around us.
Shibas: 2/3 The male likes to be in the same room with us. The female varies between being extremely needy (if she's anxious) to not wanting to have anything to do with us at all.
Kai Ken: 4/5 He wants to be with us.
Outdoorsy-ness:
On all of them, I'd put this around 3. All enjoy being outside, and the Akita particularly enjoys cool weather, even snow and rain, and will sit outside in it (but his coat is so heavy I think he's too hot in the house, and he does want to be in the house if it is hot outside). The female Shiba could probably get a 4/5--she'd live outside constantly if she could. The Kai just wants to be where we are. Except for the Akita, none of them seem to like getting wet, though.
Anxiety/Drive:
Akita: Anxiety 1/2 he's a pretty steady, calm dog, but is a bit anxious of things that are new (including new foods!). he likes his routine. Drive, I'm not sure. he's got a desire to be a watchdog, that's for sure, and clearly has a strong sense of his territory and his people, but I'm not sure if that's drive, really.
Shibas: Very drivey if we are talking about prey drive. My male has traditionally not be a terribly anxious dog, but circumstances have made him more anxious (after dog-related injuries). My female is extremely anxious, but again, that is her, not necessairly the breed.
Kai ken: I'm not seeing a lot of drive in him yet, but I'm not sure what I'd be looking for yet. Anxiety, 3/4. He is a confident little man in familiar circumstances, but gets anxious and overwhelmed by novelty and unfamiliarity.
Willingness to be touched:
Akita 4/5 He likes it! he even is patient with nail trims, eye drops, ear drops, etc.
Shibas 1 They tolerate an occasional bit of petting, the female more than the male Otherwise, hands off!
Kai Ken: 1 he may change as he's young, but right now, he's not much for a lot of touch.
Wow that's a novel! But there it is. The Shibas are the most difficult to me--high drive, low biddability, etc.. Akitas are to me the easiest of the NKs to handle, but I'm going mostly on how biddable and trainable they are. I love the Kai Ken like crazy, though, and to me, he falls somewhere in between the others.
But, I will do my best, and use the same thing I did before. For sure my opinions have changed. I'll add Kishu too, tho I only own one...
Aloofness
Akita: 1.5
Kai: 2.5
Shiba: 3
Shikoku: 3.5
Kishu: 4
Shyness
Akita: 2
Kai: 3
Shiba: 1
Shikoku: 2
Kishu: 1
Energy level
Akita: 1
Kai: 4
Shiba: 3.5
Shikoku: 3
Kishu: 2.5
Strength (relative to size)
Akita: 3
Kai: 4
Shiba: 2
Shikoku: 3
Kishu: 5
Endurance
Akita: 1
Kai: 5
Shiba: 3
Shikoku: 4
Kishu: 4
Ease of Training
Akita: 2
Kai: 4
Shiba: 3
Shikoku: 5
Kishu: 2.5
Reactiveness
Akita: 2
Kai: 1.5
Shiba: 4
Shikoku: 4
Kishu: 5
Prey drive
Akita: 2
Kai: 2.5
Shiba: 3
Shikoku: 4
Kishu: 5
Defensive drive (read as "watchdog-ness")
Akita: 2
Kai: 4
Shiba: 2
Shikoku: 2
Kishu: 3.5
Versatility
Akita: 2
Kai: 4
Shiba: 2
Shikoku: 3
Kishu: 3
Workability
Akita: 2
Kai: 3.5
Shiba: 2
Shikoku: 4.5
Kishu: 3
Companionship
Akita: 4
Kai: 4
Shiba: 3
Shikoku: 5
Kishu: 3
Outdoorsy-ness
Akita: 1
Kai: 5
Shiba: 2
Shikoku: 3.5
Kishu: 5
Anxiety
Akita: 3
Kai: 2.5
Shiba: 3
Shikoku: 4
Kishu: 3
Refinement
Akita: 5
Kai: 1
Shiba: 4
Shikoku: 3
Kishu: 2.5
Willingness to be touched
Akita: 4
Kai: 1
Shiba: 3
Shikoku: 3.5
Kishu: 2
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Ease of Training
Akita: 2
Kai: 1.5
Shiba: 3
Shikoku: 4
That one was a surprise. kai seem way more compliant/eager to please than shiba. I mean, yours basically come pre-packaged with potty training and listening skills lol.
@Mike283 - I think you'd love a Kishu!
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I have to say on the training, it's sometimes just funny to watch the differences. My American Akita would watch me and go, huh, you want me to do what? Show me that again. And again. One more time? It just took him awhile to get things, but then he'd do more repetition than any of my other dogs.
The Shibas sometimes just prefer not to (so sometimes people they don't get it, but they do. They just don't see the point.)
My Kai watches me (or the other dogs) and learns from that. We do it a couple of times, then he acts like "I am so done with that. Didn't you see me do that twice? What's next?"
What they all share though is needing to be motivated. I see it in classes and in agility in particular, but I see it at home too. They watch, and then they figure out the easiest, most direct way to do something. This means a lot of going around jumps in agility, and I can see Leo going "but, hey, I can just walk around this thing! Why jump over it?"